BoxRec

Il Duce wrote:That One,

If I didn't know better,

I think you've turned this thread into a 'Muhammad Ali Worship Thread'.

I really didn't want to go in 'That One' direction.

I wanted to focus on Cassius Clay 'spewing' hate, saying disparaging things,
as well as exhibiting cruel behavior towards a fellow human being in
November 1965.

I liked Floyd Patterson. He's one of my favorite athletes. He believed that the black man and white man should live in harmony and as equals. That still roils a lot of people but I digress...But he did go overboard in his criticism of Ali and the Nation of Islam. You need to look at it through the lens of the times. True integration and equality was opposed by a lot of white people and just not in the south. As Malcolm X famously said "“I know nothing about the South. I am a creation of the Northern white man and of his hypocritical attitude towards the Negro." The Nation Of Islam, said, fine, we don't want to integrate with you either, and we're better than you. Was it misguided? Absolutely. Was it understandable a beleaguered people would turn to anything that empowered them? Absolutely.

I wish Ali had left the Nation Of Islam when Malcom X did but he didn't. He did leave the NOI and embraced conventional Islam In 1977 when Elijah Muhammad died.

And you are embellishing. Floyd and Cassius liked one another, ergo:


A: Part of the deal was willing participation on both sides to build up the gate and the closed-circuit viewing audience. Floyd related shortly after the fight that the famous confrontation at Patterson's training camp at which Ali showed up with a bag of carrots and called Patterson "The Rabbit" was indeed a publicity stunt, something that Ali felt he had to do. About the name thing: Patterson told W.C. Heinz that it was difficult for him to pronounce the word Muhammad, and that's why he continued to call Ali “Cassius.” Maybe that's true. Remember, Floyd had difficulty as a child learning to speak. Perhaps some words did cause him problems. Maybe it was because it was a "Muslim" word. Shortly after the fight, Patterson asked Ali if it was all right if he called him Cassius. Ali smiled and said, "Anytime, Floyd." Seven years later, when they fought for the second time, Ali said something to the effect that, yes, Patterson still called him Cassius and Floyd was the only person he allowed to do so.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/37158310/

Il Duce wrote:I wanted to focus on Cassius Clay 'spewing' hate, saying disparaging things,
as well as exhibiting cruel behavior towards a fellow human being in
November 1965.

That's obvious but you can't have it all your own way.

Il Duce wrote:

SteveO wrote:

Il Duce wrote:I wanted to focus on Cassius Clay 'spewing' hate, saying disparaging things,
as well as exhibiting cruel behavior towards a fellow human being in
November 1965.

That's obvious but you can't have it all your own way.

Hey Steve O., you finally crawled out from under that Rock in Ye Olde England.

Glad you came to the 'Party'.

Did you bring the 'Fish n' Chips'.

Churchill>>>>>>>>Mussolini

Neville Chamberlin. Now there's a name that puts a smile on any Duce's Face.

Il Duce wrote:Hey Steve O., you finally crawled out from under that Rock in Ye Olde England.

Well, I don't spend my whole life on the internet!
Here's a little titbit for you: In 1998 the WBC proclaimed Muhammad Ali as 'champion for life', so I guess he's still the heavyweight champion of the world :-)

Hey Il Du If Ali moved into your neighborhood and invited you to his back yard barbecue, what would you bring to sort of break the ice and help the celebration along?

BoxBuzz wrote:Hey Il Du If Ali moved into your neighborhood and invited you to his back yard barbecue, what would you bring to sort of break the ice and help the celebration along?

I get the feeling he would come over, say something rude and be hated by the rest of the neighborhood by the end of the week.

.....If your words are sincere, then I like the cut of your jib. As long as it remains free of termites.

Nonsense, I'm respectful to a fault, and my courtesy knows no limits.

You've never heard my voice, but you claim to have.

See, here we have another example, that's what the controversy about your credibility hinges on. You ignore the empirical and ride your imagination to the edge of our known galaxy.

Anyway, the very sound of my voice could cause neurological damage to the typical fiction writer.

Buzz is alright.

He is definitely more thoughtful and sophisticated than the average Ali fan.

Il Duce wrote:

yancey wrote:Buzz is alright.

He is definitely more thoughtful and sophisticated than the average Ali fan.

But that isn't saying much, even the average Marciano fan is sharper than Ali fans.

Mr. Yancey,

I believe that is like going for Root Canal, and saying I'll pass on the 'Novacaine'.

Box Buzz, does seem a bit eccentric in his use of words.

I liken it to gimmicky verbage, with outre' phrases.

Yes, there is some quirk, but quirk can be interesting.

In my estimation, he is definitely more reasoned than the average, starry-eyed Ali goofball.

yancey wrote:

Il Duce wrote:

yancey wrote:Buzz is alright.

He is definitely more thoughtful and sophisticated than the average Ali fan.

But that isn't saying much, even the average Marciano fan is sharper than Ali fans.

Mr. Yancey,

I believe that is like going for Root Canal, and saying I'll pass on the 'Novacaine'.

Box Buzz, does seem a bit eccentric in his use of words.

I liken it to gimmicky verbage, with outre' phrases.

Yes, there is some quirk, but quirk can be interesting.

In my estimation, he is definitely more reasoned than the average, starry-eyed Ali goofball.

Do you consider me a goofball yancey? Bearing in mind my favorite Heavyweight of all time is not Ali.

Il Duce wrote:Mr. G,

I do not consider you a 'Goof-Ball'.

You have a passion for Cassius Clay, and are a defender of Muhammad Ali,
but you are far from 'Crazy'.

I wouldn't say I have a passion for Ali, but I do defend him from what I feel are unfair accusations yes. I would do that for any fighter I felt was being misrepresented.

From his own era I have a deeper respect for Joe Frazier than any of the rest. A class human being and a wonderfully entertaining fighter. My favorite Heavyweight of all time in fact.

gilgamesh wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Mr. G,

I do not consider you a 'Goof-Ball'.

You have a passion for Cassius Clay, and are a defender of Muhammad Ali,
but you are far from 'Crazy'.

I wouldn't say I have a passion for Ali, but I do defend him from what I feel are unfair accusations yes. I would do that for any fighter I felt was being misrepresented.

From his own era I have a deeper respect for Joe Frazier than any of the rest. A class human being and a wonderfully entertaining fighter. My favorite Heavyweight of all time in fact.

Il Duce wrote:Mr. G,

I do not consider you a 'Goof-Ball'.

You have a passion for Cassius Clay, and are a defender of Muhammad Ali, but you are far from 'Crazy'.

On the other hand, there are some 'Midget-Minded Freaks' that would get in a car with Giancarlo and
''Toonces the Cat' and drive anywhere to defend Muhammad Ali.

Poor Giancarlo is 100% pure goofball.

Sorry the pic is so big, but I couldn't find any other sizes of it. You all know the old saying "A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words?"

This picture has been worth entire conversations a few times for me.

It's the one image that best captures the intense and bitter rivalry between the two in my view.

gilgamesh wrote:Sorry the pic is so big, but I couldn't find any other sizes of it. You all know the old saying "A Picture is Worth a Thousand Words?"

This picture has been worth entire conversations a few times for me.

It's the one image that best captures the intense and bitter rivalry between the two in my view.

The better man is on the right hand side.

Frazier took the best to task, and relentlessly beat him at his own game on his own terms.

This may not make you the best, but what it does make you, is one of a kind.

IF he would have just left the game, I suspect boxing history would have as much difficulty attempting to figure Frazier out, as they did Marciano. And though Ali might have gone on to have an illustrious career, he would always remain in Frazier's shadow. And much would be different.

Sometimes history is happenstance.

Joe's mistake was his decision to keep climbing a mountain that he had already planted a flag on top of. People don't forgive you for that for some reason.

I'm quite at ease with the way it came out, but I could easily live in that alternate history as well.

Both men were distinct and remarkable.

BoxBuzz wrote:Frazier took the best to task, and relentlessly beat him at his own game on his own terms.

This may not make you the best, but what it does make you, is one of a kind.

IF he would have just left the game, I suspect boxing history would have as much difficulty attempting to figure Frazier out, as they did Marciano. And though Ali might have gone on to have an illustrious career, he would always remain in Frazier's shadow. And much would be different.

Sometimes history is happenstance.

Joe's mistake was his decision to keep climbing a mountain that he had already planted a flag on top of. People don't forgive you for that for some reason.

I'm quite at ease with the way it came out, but I could easily live in that alternate history as well.

Both men were distinct and remarkable.

Very well said

BoxBuzz wrote:Frazier took the best to task, and relentlessly beat him at his own game on his own terms.

This may not make you the best, but what it does make you, is one of a kind.

IF he would have just left the game, I suspect boxing history would have as much difficulty attempting to figure Frazier out, as they did Marciano. And though Ali might have gone on to have an illustrious career, he would always remain in Frazier's shadow. And much would be different.

Sometimes history is happenstance.

Joe's mistake was his decision to keep climbing a mountain that he had already planted a flag on top of. People don't forgive you for that for some reason.

I'm quite at ease with the way it came out, but I could easily live in that alternate history as well.

Both men were distinct and remarkable.

Sometime ago I read some very interesting insight from a person who was an insider to the Frazier camp.

He said that Frazier really wanted to hang 'em up after the FOTC, but it was a given that Ali and his lackeys in the media would have never given him any peace in retirement.

A rematch had to happen. The other way around, it would have been Ali's choice. That is the way it worked, sadly.

History can indeed be happenstance.

Il Duce wrote:Box Buzz,

Again with an over analytical response,,,,,,,,,

Please just say it,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Joe Frazier won 'The Fight of the Century'.

Not exactly haiku there Ol Duchess, but ya can't argue with that. Unless you're the straightforward contrary sort.

Now just so's ya know, I did say it, just like you asked, but then I realized you couldn't possibly hear me.. and that's when I sort of figured out that you didn't actually type out what you really meant to convey.....so I went back and used the ol keyboard.

I think I'm startin' to understand your writing style.

You are going to be surprised.....I watch Fox.

I don't believe MSNBC. I think they tell stories. I'm one state over....very different. Live free or die....no income tax, no sales tax. Keep the govt small, keeps them out of big trouble. Our legislators do not get paid for their work. All Volunteer. I think they are the only political body that is paid fairly for what they do.

Govt closed? I hadn't noticed.

You and your stories.....could make some money in politics.

Il Duce wrote:Mr. G,

I do not consider you a 'Goof-Ball'.

You have a passion for Cassius Clay, and are a defender of Muhammad Ali, but you are far from 'Crazy'.

On the other hand, there are some 'Midget-Minded Freaks' that would get in a car with Giancarlo and
''Toonces the Cat' and drive anywhere to defend Muhammad Ali.

That really is a great post, Duce.

Thanks for the laughs.