here are some of the White People that Nate Fleisher listed in his top 10 in the September 1971 issue of RING magazine
( under pressure from readers to rank them)
just for the record Nate Fleisher was born November 1887 and died June 1972)
anyone know how many and which fights of these guys he may actually seen ringside to come to this conclusion ?
I don't know if he was there,but he would have been 22 years old when Jeffries fought Jack Johnson in Reno NV to put this list in perspective)
2. Jim Jeffries
3. Bob Fitzsimmons (reportedly along with Jack Johnson, Nate Fleisher's favorite two fighters)
4.Jack Dempsey
5. James J. Corbett
8. Gene Tunney
9. Max Schmeling
10. Rocky Marciano
Re: The Best White Heavyweight of All Time
Posted: 10 Jan 2020, 13:57
by AngryGoon38
HomicideHenry wrote: ↑18 Jan 2014, 17:33
Thinking, why not have the forum break it all down in a tournament... the best white heavyweights, from John L. Sullivan to the present time.... Matches to be arranged week to week.... and the forum posters determine the winner via votes.... since there have been literally hundreds of 'white hopes' through that time, to make it easier we will simply take the top five or ten best white heavyweights per era (every ten years).... and in a random order (present era/1880's, 1940's/1980's, etc) we will match them off and determine the winners....
1880-1900
Champions of The Era (20 Year Period)
John Lawrence Sullivan, James J. Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, James J. Jeffries
Champions of The Era (10 Year Period)- Joe Louis (excluded), Ezzard Charles (excluded)
-Lee Savold -Pat Valentino
-Most of Joe Louis's title defenses (especially Billy Conn) -Bruce Woodcock -Joe Baksi -Buddy Knox -Kingfish Levinsky
1951-1961:
Champions of The Era (10 Year Period)- Jersey Joe Walcott (excluded), Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson (excluded), Ingemar Johansson, Sonny Liston (excluded)
Essentially, that's the listings for this tournament.... any more suggestions to add to the list feel free to do so....
Note: Those listed in blue have been eliminated from the tournament
95-05.
You left out "Brian Neilson".
And "Eric Esch", AKA - "ButterBean".
Re: The Best White Heavyweight of All Time
Posted: 10 Jan 2020, 15:42
by Caractacus
Sultan Ibragimov was pretty good. why did he quit the ring ?
Re: The Best White Heavyweight of All Time
Posted: 10 Jan 2020, 15:43
by Caractacus
I heard Sandy Ferguson was pretty good too ( for a time anyway).
Re: The Best White Heavyweight of All Time
Posted: 10 Jan 2020, 15:46
by Caractacus
Dan Dancuta was good-remember him ?
and Adam Adamek
what if Mike DeJohn had a better chin ? how much further could he have gone ?
Re: The Best White Heavyweight of All Time
Posted: 10 Jan 2020, 15:50
by Caractacus
which ones fought in the Murray Worner radio competion back in 1967 ?
I remember it came down to Jack Dempsey vrs Rocky Marciano for the title.
Re: The Best White Heavyweight of All Time
Posted: 10 Jan 2020, 16:18
by oogiebe
Caractacus wrote: ↑10 Jan 2020, 15:50
which ones fought in the Murray Worner radio competion back in 1967 ?
I remember it came down to Jack Dempsey vrs Rocky Marciano for the title.
That was my Uncle.
Re: The Best White Heavyweight of All Time
Posted: 10 Jan 2020, 16:27
by Caractacus
hey, do you think the magnetic tapes with the full unedited interviews of Jess Willard,Jack Sharkey,Max Schmeling,
Jim J. Braddock Joe Louis,Jersey Joe Walcott etc still may exist somewhere ?
Those would be of great Historical value.
Re: The Best White Heavyweight of All Time
Posted: 10 Jan 2020, 16:54
by oogiebe
Caractacus wrote: ↑10 Jan 2020, 16:27
hey, do you think the magnetic tapes with the full unedited interviews of Jess Willard,Jack Sharkey,Max Schmeling,
Jim J. Braddock Joe Louis,Jersey Joe Walcott etc still may exist somewhere ?
Those would be of great Historical value.
I'll have to ask my cousin next time I speak with him. He re-released the superfight several years ago. Not sure what remains from the round robin radio tourney, although I still have the vinyl version.
Re: The Best White Heavyweight of All Time
Posted: 10 Jan 2020, 16:59
by Caractacus
it sounded like they may have interviewed Jess Willard over the phone from his home in California.
( long distance was kind of expensive per minute in those days)
Re: The Best White Heavyweight of All Time
Posted: 10 Jan 2020, 17:02
by oogiebe
Caractacus wrote: ↑10 Jan 2020, 16:59
it sounded like they may have interviewed Jess Willard over the phone from his home in California.
( long distance was kind of expensive per minute in those days)
He did interview Jeffries. I remember him telling us about that one when I was a lad.
Re: The Best White Heavyweight of All Time
Posted: 10 Jan 2020, 17:03
by Caractacus
also for this tournament you may want to include the Best amateur Eastern European HW Boxing champions over the last 100 years who never got an opportunity to turn pro.
Caractacus wrote: ↑10 Jan 2020, 16:59
it sounded like they may have interviewed Jess Willard over the phone from his home in California.
( long distance was kind of expensive per minute in those days)
He did interview Jeffries. I remember him telling us about that one when I was a lad.
I think there was a vinyl LP record released with Jeffries and Corbett and others being interviewed in the early 1940's.
I think maybe there was a thread on this topic already. a few years ago.
He did interview Jeffries. I remember him telling us about that one when I was a lad.
I think there was a vinyl LP record released with Jeffries and Corbett and others being interviewed in the early 1940's.
I think maybe there was a thread on this topic already. a few years ago.
My Uncle's interviews happened in the sixities of memory serves.
Re: The Best White Heavyweight of All Time
Posted: 10 Jan 2020, 17:08
by Caractacus
It was a NBC radio show in 1938 that interviewed Jeffries and Corbett.
a copy is avaialbale in the Library of Congress.
I had a link to an audio sample at one time.
I will try and find it.
margaret thatcher wrote: ↑03 Dec 2019, 21:54
Aways been confused about white/hispanic distinction. Like, many white Europeans went to Argentina . They have descendants who are every bit as 'white' racially, but now speak spanish, were born in south america, have names like Jose etc. Are they now hispanic rather than white like maybe their paretns/grandparents?
'Hispanic' is a cultural definition based around speaking Spanish that is relevant to the United States - both Felix Trinidad and Oscar de la Hoya are 'Hispanic' but of course are different racially.
You can be white, black or Mestizo and be 'Hispanic'.
Most light skin latinos dont consider themselves white and dark skin latinos don’t consider themselves black. These convos are most entertaining when spoken in practical terms. Monzon probably woulda broken someones jaw for calling him white.
'Hispanic' is a cultural definition based around speaking Spanish that is relevant to the United States - both Felix Trinidad and Oscar de la Hoya are 'Hispanic' but of course are different racially.
You can be white, black or Mestizo and be 'Hispanic'.
Most light skin latinos dont consider themselves white and dark skin latinos don’t consider themselves black. These convos are most entertaining when spoken in practical terms. Monzon probably woulda broken someones jaw for calling him white.
That's because Carlos Monzon wasn't a white man. Someone like Gabriel Batistuta is white and would consider himself as such despite him and Monzon sharing the same nationality and culture.
Most light skin latinos dont consider themselves white and dark skin latinos don’t consider themselves black. These convos are most entertaining when spoken in practical terms. Monzon probably woulda broken someones jaw for calling him white.
That's because Carlos Monzon wasn't a white man. Someone like Gabriel Batistuta is white and would consider himself as such despite him and Monzon sharing the same nationality and culture.
Canelo is one of the whitest people alive. Has anybody ever asked him whether he considers himself a POC?
That's because Carlos Monzon wasn't a white man. Someone like Gabriel Batistuta is white and would consider himself as such despite him and Monzon sharing the same nationality and culture.
Canelo is one of the whitest people alive. Has anybody ever asked him whether he considers himself a POC?
What on earth are you babbling on about?
In Latin American societies - identity goes a lot lot deeper than what colour someones skin is. Gabriel Batistuta and his family are of Italian and Spanish heritage - he will see himself as a white man of European heratige though he is also South American and Argentinian, Canelo is a Mexican of Native American/European admixture (like the majority of Mexicans) - because he has turned out fairly 'white' doesn't mean he will see it that way himself or will identify as such - it is quite common in Latin American families to have white and dark skinned siblings from the same parents (my own family included) - therefore - their identity is a bit more complex, or why don't you go and ask him.
clopixolacuphase wrote: ↑23 Jan 2020, 13:12
Canelo is one of the whitest people alive. Has anybody ever asked him whether he considers himself a POC?
What on earth are you babbling on about?
In Latin American societies - identity goes a lot lot deeper than what colour someones skin is. Gabriel Batistuta and his family are of Italian and Spanish heritage - he will see himself as a white man of European heratige though he is also South American and Argentinian, Canelo is a Mexican of Native American/European admixture (like the majority of Mexicans) - because he has turned out fairly 'white' doesn't mean he will see it that way himself or will identify as such - it is quite common in Latin American families to have white and dark skinned siblings from the same parents (my own family included) - therefore - their identity is a bit more complex, or why don't you go and ask him.
Ages ago in the thread someone introduced the idea that Latino fighters could be considered white. As I’m mates with a ton of Mexicans and other Hispanic types that I know all consider themselves people of colour I challenged that. The issue’s still being talked about in the thread and I just wondered, that’s all. Dunno how that’s babbling.
I expect you’re still salty because I called you out on you telling stories about how young you look and how many girls fancy you and how John Ruiz is your doppelgänger, even though he’s a muscular heavyweight and from the photos of yourself that you post we can all see that you’re just a fat bloke.
Re: The Best White Heavyweight of All Time
Posted: 26 Jan 2020, 21:10
by Fray Bentos
clopixolacuphase wrote: ↑26 Jan 2020, 14:38
Ages ago in the thread someone introduced the idea that Latino fighters could be considered white. As I’m mates with a ton of Mexicans and other Hispanic types that I know all consider themselves people of colour I challenged that. The issue’s still being talked about in the thread and I just wondered, that’s all. Dunno how that’s babbling.
No...
If you had actually said the above then we could have had a discussion - but you didn't say that, what you did say was this...
Canelo is one of the whitest people alive. Has anybody ever asked him whether he considers himself a POC?
And it's babbling because it doesn't make any sense (and had no reference to the orginal post of mine you quoted), has anyone asked him? Is he 'the whitest person alive' (if that isn't babbling, I don't know what is...) If you knew 'tons of Mexicans' (in London with your mates the Yardies... I doubt it...) you would know the answer to this question. He probably doesn't see himself as a white caucasian - even if he looks 'the whitest man alive' because he was brought up in a close social environment where the rest of his family (his actual 'flesh and blood') aren't white, why don't you go and ask one of your many Mexican mates (that you don't have in real life...) and other 'Hispanic types' how it works...
(Saying that, there are white Latinos, black Latinos, Asian Latinos such as Alberto Fujimori and Latinos that are fully Native American but most are mixed race and they can range from have white skin to having very dark skin - this is very common within the same family, it's not so simple to look at someone from that culture and identity and go 'oh, he has white skin - he is a white guy!' and you might percieve Canelo to be a white man but he probably doesn't see himself the same way - just look at his parents and siblings. It is a very complex social and cultural dynamic that you have very little understanding of.)
I expect you’re still salty because I called you out on you telling stories about how young you look and how many girls fancy you and how John Ruiz is your doppelgänger
No 'saltiness' on my part, I have cordially interacted with you on the OT since with no mention of your worthless opinions on my physical state - it is actually you being called out on incoherent babbling (and you taking it personally) seeing as you're involving me with it - sometimes, it is what it is.
But as you like bringing it up, let's go through it again
I do look young for my age - you don't - sorry to hear about that.
I wouldn't say many girls fancy me - some do though - doesn't that go for most blokes - that never happens to you? Sorry about that.
Where did I say he was my doppelgänger - unless you can point out that I did say I was a spit of him. I said I have some physical similarities to him (compared to say, Scotty Olson), same height, same kind of hair, skin tone etc... which I do for the most part except for that crappy little mustache he has... sorry....
even though he’s a muscular heavyweight and from the photos of yourself that you post we can all see that you’re just a fat bloke.
Show me a photo on here where I am a 'fat bloke' seeing as we have never met, you are going to have to take my word that I am not all that fat these days - what's confusing you is my former moniker 'fat git' as I have been fat in the past but we have this thing called dieting and exercise that can solve that problem... sometimes in a matter of months.
Next to you - no doubt a steaming physical heap, I bet I look like James Dean.
clopixolacuphase wrote: ↑26 Jan 2020, 14:38
Ages ago in the thread someone introduced the idea that Latino fighters could be considered white. As I’m mates with a ton of Mexicans and other Hispanic types that I know all consider themselves people of colour I challenged that. The issue’s still being talked about in the thread and I just wondered, that’s all. Dunno how that’s babbling.
No...
If you had actually said the above then we could have had a discussion - but you didn't say that, what you did say was this...
Canelo is one of the whitest people alive. Has anybody ever asked him whether he considers himself a POC?
And it's babbling because it doesn't make any sense (and had no reference to the orginal post of mine you quoted), has anyone asked him? Is he 'the whitest person alive' (if that isn't babbling, I don't know what is...) If you knew 'tons of Mexicans' (in London with your mates the Yardies... I doubt it...) you would know the answer to this question. He probably doesn't see himself as a white caucasian - even if he looks 'the whitest man alive' because he was brought up in a close social environment where the rest of his family (his actual 'flesh and blood') aren't white, why don't you go and ask one of your many Mexican mates (that you don't have in real life...) and other 'Hispanic types' how it works...
(Saying that, there are white Latinos, black Latinos, Asian Latinos such as Alberto Fujimori and Latinos that are fully Native American but most are mixed race and they can range from have white skin to having very dark skin - this is very common within the same family, it's not so simple to look at someone from that culture and identity and go 'oh, he has white skin - he is a white guy!' and you might percieve Canelo to be a white man but he probably doesn't see himself the same way - just look at his parents and siblings. It is a very complex social and cultural dynamic that you have very little understanding of.)
I expect you’re still salty because I called you out on you telling stories about how young you look and how many girls fancy you and how John Ruiz is your doppelgänger
No 'saltiness' on my part, I have cordially interacted with you on the OT since with no mention of your worthless opinions on my physical state - it is actually you being called out on incoherent babbling (and you taking it personally) seeing as you're involving me with it - sometimes, it is what it is.
But as you like bringing it up, let's go through it again
I do look young for my age - you don't - sorry to hear about that.
I wouldn't say many girls fancy me - some do though - doesn't that go for most blokes - that never happens to you? Sorry about that.
Where did I say he was my doppelgänger - unless you can point out that I did say I was a spit of him. I said I have some physical similarities to him (compared to say, Scotty Olson), same height, same kind of hair, skin tone etc... which I do for the most part except for that crappy little mustache he has... sorry....
even though he’s a muscular heavyweight and from the photos of yourself that you post we can all see that you’re just a fat bloke.
Show me a photo on here where I am a 'fat bloke' seeing as we have never met, you are going to have to take my word that I am not all that fat these days - what's confusing you is my former moniker 'fat git' as I have been fat in the past but we have this thing called dieting and exercise that can solve that problem... sometimes in a matter of months.
Next to you - no doubt a steaming physical heap, I bet I look like James Dean.
So you raise my 'babbling' (which isn't a 'cordial' term) with a mini novella of what I would call 'waffling'? I skimmed it. It's just you being patronising, a load of lame insults and calling me a liar. And signed off with the same "I bet I'm better looking than you!" that you did last time we had a little tiff.
Re: The Best White Heavyweight of All Time
Posted: 27 Jan 2020, 07:33
by Fray Bentos
clopixolacuphase wrote: ↑27 Jan 2020, 07:22
So you raise my 'babbling' (which isn't a 'cordial' term) with a mini novella of what I would call 'waffling'? I skimmed it. It's just you being patronising, a load of lame insults and calling me a liar. And signed off with the same "I bet I'm better looking than you!" that you did last time we had a little tiff.
Your babbling is that - it makes no sense.
You take a cultural context you have no understanding of and try to weld your cultural understanding of it onto it and the end result is it makes no sense - I know you skimmed through it which is a pity because you might have learned something.
Where Alvarez is from - having white skin doesn't make you white - no more than white skin makes the person below a white man.
As for calling you a liar, you don't know 'tons of Mexicans' there aren't tons of Mexicans in London and the ones who are there are going to be pretty well off because a Mexican is going to be upper middle class at least to get their arse to Europe. There aren't that many Mexicans in Madrid - never mind London - you might know one or two Mexicans, maybe a handful - but you don't know 'tons of Mexicans' in London - a community of a few thousand.
Secondly - no Mexican would state their country is of one race - I would say the vast majority of Latin Americans would say their country is multi-racial (probably apart from Argentina...) and white and dark skinned (as well as Asian) Mexicans exist, even though white Mexicans exist - Canelo isn't one of them though he obviously has European ancestry.
You're the one bringing up the lame insults about peoples looks, I am just replying to you in kind. Why do you think I give a shite what some middle aged white (this is an assumption...) guy from Kent thinks about my looks or in fact, how he looks - you're the one who keeps bringing it up.
clopixolacuphase wrote: ↑27 Jan 2020, 07:22
So you raise my 'babbling' (which isn't a 'cordial' term) with a mini novella of what I would call 'waffling'? I skimmed it. It's just you being patronising, a load of lame insults and calling me a liar. And signed off with the same "I bet I'm better looking than you!" that you did last time we had a little tiff.
Your babbling is that - it makes no sense.
You take a cultural context you have no understanding of and try to weld your cultural understanding of it onto it and the end result is it makes no sense - I know you skimmed through it which is a pity because you might have learned something.
Where Alvarez is from - having white skin doesn't make you white - no more than white skin makes the person below a white man.
As for calling you a liar, you don't know 'tons of Mexicans' there aren't tons of Mexicans in London and the ones who are there are going to be pretty well off because a Mexican is going to be upper middle class at least to get their arse to Europe. There aren't that many Mexicans in Madrid - never mind London - you might know one or two Mexicans, maybe a handful - but you don't know 'tons of Mexicans' in London - a community of a few thousand.
Secondly - no Mexican would state their country is of one race - I would say the vast majority of Latin Americans would say their country is multi-racial (probably apart from Argentina...) and white and dark skinned (as well as Asian) Mexicans exist, even though white Mexicans exist - Canelo isn't one of them though he obviously has European ancestry.
You're the one bringing up the lame insults about peoples looks, I am just replying to you in kind. Why do you think I give a shite what some middle aged white (this is an assumption...) guy from Kent thinks about my looks or in fact, how he looks - you're the one who keeps bringing it up.
I'll address one thing: I don't know how I know so many Latinos in London but I do. Like you said, it's a community of thousands in nearly 9 million. But, like you said, it's still a community, and a lot of them know each other and hang out with each other, like any small community would do, and they have a WhatsApp group that for some reason (perhaps because they like me?) I'm in. So I get invited out to a lot to gatherings where most people are Mexican or of some kind of latin descent. I also meet the occasional Colombian, Chilean, Brazilian. And I've had the 'education' about how complex an issue race is when it comes to people from those countries from having intelligent reasoned conversations with them. And we've laughed and talked about Canelo looking like an Irish kid, with his ginger hair and freckles. That's actually why I brought it up, because I find it kind of fascinating.
How about, if you think I'm a liar, stop reading and responding to my posts and trying to goad me, and put me on ignore? That way we can go back to talking about boxers and boxing, which is what I was trying to do before you weighed in swinging your tampon around? Internet arguments aren't interesting to me.
Re: The Best White Heavyweight of All Time
Posted: 27 Jan 2020, 09:52
by Fray Bentos
clopixolacuphase wrote: ↑27 Jan 2020, 09:01
How about, if you think I'm a liar, stop reading and responding to my posts and trying to goad me, and put me on ignore? That way we can go back to talking about boxers and boxing, which is what I was trying to do before you weighed in swinging your tampon around? Internet arguments aren't interesting to me.
Just come back from my daily run.
I was going to write something about a good mate of mine being part of a similar group of Cubans/Dominicans out of Liverpool and he goes all over the North of England having parties and nights out with them - same as you - loves it, now speaks Spanish with a Cuban accent! You probably speak the Spanish as well as he does, your group of Latin American expats in London might not even speak Spanish when they get together, they might all converse in English - it doesn't matter - I hope you continue to have a great time with them.
And I haven't goaded you - you quoted me, not the other way round. I have no problem with you by the way, if you ignore my posts from now on, you will never hear another peep from me for as long as I am member of this site. I have never given you problems ever on here, anytime there has been - it's you being an arse and I have responded to it - but from now on, there will be no more problems coming from my side - but if you want to quote me then I am allowed to respond to what you say. Which is fair enough because it is a boxing forum!
I don't log onto here to think about ways of giving you grief, I am fine with never interacting with you again, take care.
