Bermane Stiverne v Deontay Wilder 17th Jan Vegas

[Tuan_Jim]

Frazier was a diminished force in Jamaica. Also, Foreman can stand there with a puncher without fear and let the punches fly. Rewatch Wlad/Brewster to see how Wlad deals with a swarming hitter. The idea he will jab & tame such an opponent is a total fallacy. He's too frightened of a shot landing. He holds, holds some more, he throws a left and right and leaps forward to hold again, and gets very tired, very quickly - particularly if a good ref like Robert Byrd stops his holding & makes him box - thus placing him back in the panic zone.

He's only some great jabber when the opponent is passive & inept, which they frequently are.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Frazier was a diminished force in Jamaica. Also, Foreman can stand there with a puncher without fear and let the punches fly. Rewatch Wlad/Brewster to see how Wlad deals with a swarming hitter. The idea he will jab & tame such an opponent is a total fallacy. He's too frightened of a shot landing. He holds, holds some more, he throws a left and right and leaps forward to hold again, and gets very tired, very quickly - particularly if a good ref like Robert Byrd stops his holding & makes him box - thus placing him back in the panic zone.

He's only some great jabber when the opponent is passive & inept, which they frequently are.

Again - we are talking 12 years ago - does it not occur to you that 12 years after that defeat that Klitsckho might have improved somewhat to the tune that he has gone 21-0 since?

I don't like him, I don't like his style, I wish he would just fornicate off but we can't ignore facts. Fighters evolve. If you can use the excuse Frazier wasn't at his peak when he lost to Foreman (which I agree with but he would have still got KO'd by Foreman because he couldn't deal with Foremans style) then I am going to say Klitsckho was yet to reach his peak.

Your idea of 'inept' is not mine, count how many olympians, world champions both amateur and pro make up his defence resume.

My idea of an inept fighter would be, I don't know - the version of Chuck Gardner who fought Frank Bruno.

[Tuan_Jim]

My point is no one has challenged him with the high workrate and big power that Brewster employed. So although 11 years have passed since Brewster mugged him, and 10 since Peter walked him down only to run out of puff, we can't say he can now deal with that kind of high pressure assault because in truth he hasn't been asked to confront it.

The faults he displayed versus Brewster are innate. The chin, the stamina.

I ask, who jumped on him out of the following: Brock, Austin, Brewster's corpse, Ibragimov, Thompson, Rahman's corpse, Chagaev, Chambers, Peter, Haye, Mormeck, Wach, Pianeta, Povetkin, Leipei? Who was even capable of doing so out of that lineup?

Haye and Ibragimov are the only truly compentent top class heavies there, and they both opted to box him safety first from the outside, and with a low punch output - a losing game. Hardly the Thrilla.

The only chap who truly tried to go after him was Povetkin, nowhere near the threat of Sanders or Brewster despite all his amateur silverware, but alas all Wlad could do was hold, maul, squeeze - a thousand times in 12 rounds. That's not 'improvement' - that's illegal.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

My point is no one has challenged him with the high workrate and big power that Brewster employed. So although 11 years have passed since Brewster mugged him, and 10 since Peter walked him down only to run out of puff, we can't say he can now deal with that kind of high pressure assault because in truth he hasn't been asked to confront it.

It's not that anyone has challenged, it is because he has perfected a (boring) style that negates the offense of the opposing fighter, for any fighter to stand something of a chance against him, they would need to be more or less the same size as him, again - you bring up Brewster from 12 YEARS AGO - was Ali the same fighter in 1978 as he was in 1966? Floyd Mayweather the same fighter now than he was in 2003?

The faults he displayed versus Brewster are innate. The chin, the stamina.

Again, Brewster is 12 years ago, obviously - he has perfected a style that covers up the inadequacies.

I ask, who jumped on him out of the following: Brock, Austin, Brewster's corpse, Ibragimov, Thompson, Rahman's corpse, Chagaev, Chambers, Peter, Haye, Mormeck, Wach, Pianeta, Povetkin, Leipei? Who was even capable of doing so out of that lineup?

Incapable because they weren't big enough to get through his reach and defence - he is pretty fast for a big man and there are only so many of those thudding punches they are going to take before going down. So, how Frazier was going to get through at 5ft 11ins and 205lbs is anyones guess.

Haye and Ibragimov are the only truly compentent top class heavies there, and they both opted to box him safety first from the outside, and with a low punch output - a losing game. Hardly the Thrilla.

I would say out of that list - Chagaev, Peter and Potvetkin posed real dangers (as well as Haye and Ibramigov) and if you count them up, it is about the same amount of dangerous challengers Lennox Lewis fought.

The only chap who truly tried to go after him was Povetkin, nowhere near the threat of Sanders or Brewster despite all his amateur silverware, but alas all Wlad could do was hold, maul, squeeze - a thousand times in 12 rounds. That's not 'improvement' - that's illegal.

Because he wasn't big enough.

No 6ft 2ins and 16 stone boxer is big enough to beat Klitsckho.

Are we really arguing the science of size and the practical use of it in a boxing ring.

He isn't some unemployed circus giant that got a job as world heavyweight champion after six months at job club - he has talent, an olympic gold medalist, been stopped as many times as Lennox Lewis as a pro - who was also an olympic gold medalist, fought as many decent challengers as Lewis - but Lewis is seen as an all time great and Klitsckho isn't - something is wrong with your arithmetic.

[Tuan_Jim]

He simply hasn't fought as many good challengers as Lewis. The quality is night and day. He's said to be fighting Shannon Briggs in September - didn't Lewis and Foreman deal with that guy nearly 20 years ago?

Can you explain clearly why you think Wladimir had to initiate a thousand holds versus Povetkin? Why didn't his jab and new improved style keep Povetkin at bay? Why didn't he fight? If a 6'2'' man can't possibly get to the new Wlad, why did they spend 36 minutes pressed up against each other?

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

He simply hasn't fought as many good challengers as Lewis. The quality is night and day. He's said to be fighting Shannon Briggs in September - didn't Lewis and Foreman deal with that guy nearly 20 years ago?

Name these good challengers of Lewis? Holyfield was well past his prime, Tyson - well - self explanitory - I am sure you will come up with names that compare and contrast with Klitsckhos

Can you explain clearly why you think Wladimir had to initiate a thousand holds versus Povetkin? Why didn't his jab and new improved style keep Povetkin at bay? Why didn't he fight? If a 6'2'' man can't possibly get to the new Wlad, why did they spend 36 minutes pressed up against each other?

What Povetkin couldn't do was capitalise on anything he was capable of doing in previous fights, Klitsckho is a boring fighter - but he wins, like he won that fight.

[Tuan_Jim]

Under the rules of boxing Wladimir should have been DQd versus Povetkin. I am spying both the gaping holes in your argument and your willful blindness to them. Povetkin 'couldn't do what he usually did' because Wladimir was employing excessive and illegal tactics - as evidenced in every round on the film, freely available across the internet. You can't sweep his tactics under the rug. It's right there, and it's not boxing. You know it, I know it. You won't admit it, for whatever personal reason.

As for Chagaev, Peter and Povetkin posing real dangers, their recent form was Chagaev's sluggish SDs and MDs against 35 year olds Ruiz and Valuev, Peter had the stuffing beat out of him by big brother and then lost every single round versus Eddie Chambers, and Povetkin scraped by an overweight disease ridden Chagaev and Marco Huck. Marco Huck!!!

It's hardly Ruddock and Golota coming off their apocalyptic encounters with Tyson and Bowe. I even spy a fellow by the name of Vitali Klitschko on Lewis' list of victims. But they're still as great as him, right?

You're lying to yourself, and I'm not going round in circles with you anymore.

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Under the rules of boxing Wladimir should have been DQd versus Povetkin. I am spying both the gaping holes in your argument and your willful blindness to them. Povetkin 'couldn't do what he usually did' because Wladimir was employing excessive and illegal tactics - as evidenced in every round on the film, freely available across the internet. You can't sweep his tactics under the rug. It's right there, and it's not boxing. You know it, I know it. You won't admit it, for whatever personal reason.

So Rocky Marciano wasn't a great because little he did was in accordance with the Queensbury Rules.

As for Chagaev, Peter and Povetkin posing real dangers, their recent form was Chagaev's sluggish SDs and MDs against 35 year olds Ruiz and Valuev, Peter had the stuffing beat out of him by big brother and then lost every single round versus Eddie Chambers, and Povetkin scraped by an overweight disease ridden Chagaev and Marco Huck. Marco Huck!!!

You are sort of cementing my argument that the heavyweight division is short on great challengers throughout all history, I am not saying Vladimirs opposition was fantastic - just that Lewis' were all that great either.

It's hardly Ruddock and Golota coming off their apocalyptic encounters with Tyson and Bowe. I even spy a fellow by the name of Vitali Klitschko on Lewis' list of victims. But they're still as great as him, right?

Yeah, but he defended against more than three people, one of the above fights was an eliminator and didn't Golota foul his way to a loss, you slag off Vladimir because of dirty tactics and crown Golota for getting a title shot on being a cheat and a dirty fighter.

You're lying to yourself, and I'm not going round in circles with you anymore.

I know, life is too short, I have been reading up on stoicism as a philosophy - so you can have the last word and I promise not to bag your nonsense up.

[Bard of Boxrec]

Fat Git, I know you dislike me and conversing with me, but I want to ask you something, do you HONESTLY believe Wlad's challengers compare in ANY WAY to Lewis's?

Can you really not tell the difference between their resumes at all?

[el_grande_mauro_mina]

Fat Git, I know you dislike me and conversing with me, but I want to ask you something, do you HONESTLY believe Wlad's challengers compare in ANY WAY to Lewis's?

I don't dislike you, you are probably a very nice person and I would like you a great deal if I got the chance to know you in real life - but you know, the internet and all that.

Do I think Vlad's challengers are comparable - in the main, yes. Tyson and Holyfield and Vlad's big brother were the standouts but two of those were shot, Lewis fought his share of dross (remember Lionel Butler? Granted, it was a WBC title eliminator).

Can you really not tell the difference between their resumes at all?

Lewis got knocked out cold twice. But on a more serious note, most heavyweight greats regarding their opposition don't have a deep level of talent - Joe Louis fought loads of terrible boxers in defence of his title. You could make a case that Lewis opposition is slightly better but the margin is miminal.