Vasyl Lomachenko vs Teofimo Lopez 17/10/20

[Onetimeonly]

Unfortunately I do because of the nature of the defeat - pretty much all the ATGs have been defined by that ability to reach down into the well and find something to turn a fight around, in many respects it's a measure of their greatness. Look at Leonard against Hearns, for example, where the master-boxer found himself being outboxed and found the courage, the spite and the sheer bloody-mindedness to put it all on the line to turn the trajectory of the fight.
It's not about the fact he lost, it's about how he lost. That's what impacts his legacy IMO.

I don't think loma is anywhere near the level of Leonard and hearns and as a fight that's a tall measuring stick.

I was surprised he was outboxed, Lopez is the better fighter. Happens, he was saying loma couldn't fight going backwards and he was right.

But you're missing my point. Many were already regarding him as a candidate for the ATG ranks (and I was certainly of the view he had the potential to be). So judging through that lens, there's no question this has damaged his legacy.

You can say you never viewed him through that lens anyway, which is fine, but you also have to accept yours was a minority view prior to the fight and the majority, including many respected trade figures, regarded him as well on his way to that status.

I didn't miss your point and I've said going into the fight that he's crazy overrated by his fans. Lopez is a bad dude, I don't think that loss is going to look bad. Lomas still a great fighter.
I'm perfectly fine being right with a minority opinion.

[Deserter]

I don't think loma is anywhere near the level of Leonard and hearns and as a fight that's a tall measuring stick.

I was surprised he was outboxed, Lopez is the better fighter. Happens, he was saying loma couldn't fight going backwards and he was right.

But you're missing my point. Many were already regarding him as a candidate for the ATG ranks (and I was certainly of the view he had the potential to be). So judging through that lens, there's no question this has damaged his legacy.

You can say you never viewed him through that lens anyway, which is fine, but you also have to accept yours was a minority view prior to the fight and the majority, including many respected trade figures, regarded him as well on his way to that status.

I didn't miss your point and I've said going into the fight that he's crazy overrated by his fans.

And my point is that your language consistently makes it sound like you're claiming it's only the fan-boy 'enter the Matrix' crew who rated him as a potential ATG. The reality is that many seasoned observers did as well. Ergo it follows that his legacy will be harmed from this defeat (my original point).
Great that you're happy with holding the minority view, but that shouldn't be stopping you from acknowledging objectively that his legacy will be tarnished in the eyes of the vast majority of people.

[TheLeprechaun]

But you're missing my point. Many were already regarding him as a candidate for the ATG ranks (and I was certainly of the view he had the potential to be). So judging through that lens, there's no question this has damaged his legacy.

You can say you never viewed him through that lens anyway, which is fine, but you also have to accept yours was a minority view prior to the fight and the majority, including many respected trade figures, regarded him as well on his way to that status.

I didn't miss your point and I've said going into the fight that he's crazy overrated by his fans.

And my point is that your language consistently makes it sound like you're claiming it's only the fan-boy 'enter the Matrix' crew who rated him as a potential ATG. The reality is that many seasoned observers did as well. Ergo it follows that his legacy will be harmed from this defeat (my original point).
Great that you're happy with holding the minority view, but that shouldn't be stopping you from acknowledging objectively that his legacy will be tarnished in the eyes of the vast majority of people.

Loma is definitely going to go down as not as good as advertised but expectations were high. He still has some very good wins and goes into the hall of fame. But there can be no doubt that the creme de la creme of those divisions would have beaten him. Teofimo is a poor mans mayweather when floyd was at 135 for example. The likes of Marquez, Pac, Morales, Barrera have to be favoured over him too. That isn't to say he wouldn't be competitive but he simply can't be ranked higher or thought to be a better fighter than those guys.

[Deserter]

I didn't miss your point and I've said going into the fight that he's crazy overrated by his fans.

And my point is that your language consistently makes it sound like you're claiming it's only the fan-boy 'enter the Matrix' crew who rated him as a potential ATG. The reality is that many seasoned observers did as well. Ergo it follows that his legacy will be harmed from this defeat (my original point).
Great that you're happy with holding the minority view, but that shouldn't be stopping you from acknowledging objectively that his legacy will be tarnished in the eyes of the vast majority of people.

Loma is definitely going to go down as not as good as advertised but expectations were high. He still has some very good wins and goes into the hall of fame. But there can be no doubt that the creme de la creme of those divisions would have beaten him. Teofimo is a poor mans mayweather when floyd was at 135 for example. The likes of Marquez, Pac, Morales, Barrera have to be favoured over him too. That isn't to say he wouldn't be competitive but he simply can't be ranked higher or thought to be a better fighter than those guys.

Yep, I think that's a completely fair summary mate.

[smiling assassin]

So Loma not all he was cracked up to be?

Is this the result that finally convinces fans to be a bit more discriminating with the 'ATG', 'GOAT', 'The Best Ever' tags?

Not at all Loma is right up there with what he’s achieved. Let’s not forget he could still make Feather easily. For losing this fight at the back end of his Career against a fresher, bigger, stronger fighter doesn’t do a lot to tarnish his legacy in my eyes, especially if he gets the rematch and wins

Interesting. What are his great wins? For instance Leonard has Benitez, Duran, Hearns and Hagler. What's Loma's equivalent?

HIs resume is not that of Leonard, Duran or Hagler but that is not his fault as he didn’t have that caliber of fighters around to fight. He’s not the best to ever lace them up and I answered your question flippantly (apologies). Loma is an extraordinary fighter at feather/super feather and he tried to be the man at lightweight and failed.
For what he’s done in a short amount of fights is unbelievable and he will go down as a great just not the greatest

[MightyWarrior]

Lopez was just too big hard-hitting and fast, that’s why Loma stayed away for the first eight rounds, otherwise he would’ve got knocked out ( or was worried he would )

Fighting in the wrong division to take on the really big talented hard-hitting lightweights.

That Top Rank commentator Christine is beyond awful - like listening to your crazy aunt let loose ringside

[ash.123]

Lopez was just too big hard-hitting and fast, that’s why Loma stayed away for the first eight rounds, otherwise he would’ve got knocked out ( or was worried he would )

Fighting in the wrong division to take on the really big talented hard-hitting lightweights.

That Top Rank commentator Christine is beyond awful - like listening to your crazy aunt let loose ringside

I actually thought she was pretty decent. Didn’t just babble on to fill the gaps like Sky do.

[MightyWarrior]

She’s terrible, Often overcompensating for the fact she’s not a very good commentator by going on about how she personally knows certain fighters, often missing what’s happening in the ring as a result. Spouts cliches laughs at weird moments ..Not comfortable as a commentator which is a shame because she’s been doing it for about three years and just hasn’t got better - painful to listen to.

Her co commentator ( Chris Algeri ? ) was excellent though. A real natural.

Okay she’s not beyond awful but just not really at the level she should be - very nervous and stutters and mixes up her vocab.. I mean last week‘s commentators were great

[Onetimeonly]

But you're missing my point. Many were already regarding him as a candidate for the ATG ranks (and I was certainly of the view he had the potential to be). So judging through that lens, there's no question this has damaged his legacy.

You can say you never viewed him through that lens anyway, which is fine, but you also have to accept yours was a minority view prior to the fight and the majority, including many respected trade figures, regarded him as well on his way to that status.

I didn't miss your point and I've said going into the fight that he's crazy overrated by his fans.

And my point is that your language consistently makes it sound like you're claiming it's only the fan-boy 'enter the Matrix' crew who rated him as a potential ATG. The reality is that many seasoned observers did as well. Ergo it follows that his legacy will be harmed from this defeat (my original point).
Great that you're happy with holding the minority view, but that shouldn't be stopping you from acknowledging objectively that his legacy will be tarnished in the eyes of the vast majority of people.

I'm just speaking for me. The majority of people don't really know how to evaluate a resume. You need to look at that.

He can still be an atg. Lopez can too.

[ash.123]

She’s terrible, Often overcompensating for the fact she’s not a very good commentator by going on about how she personally knows certain fighters, often missing what’s happening in the ring as it as a result. Spouts cliches laughs at weird moments ..Not comfortable as a commentator which is a shame because she’s been doing it for about three years and just hasn’t got better - painful to listen to.

Her co commentator ( Chris Algeri ? ) was excellent though. A real natural.

Okay she’s not beyond awful but just not really at the level she should be - very nervous and stutters and mixes up her vocab.. I mean last week‘s commentators were great

Yeah I agree on Algieri, he’s quality.

[Deserter]

I didn't miss your point and I've said going into the fight that he's crazy overrated by his fans.

And my point is that your language consistently makes it sound like you're claiming it's only the fan-boy 'enter the Matrix' crew who rated him as a potential ATG. The reality is that many seasoned observers did as well. Ergo it follows that his legacy will be harmed from this defeat (my original point).
Great that you're happy with holding the minority view, but that shouldn't be stopping you from acknowledging objectively that his legacy will be tarnished in the eyes of the vast majority of people.

I'm just speaking for me. The majority of people don't really know how to evaluate a resume. You need to look at that.

He can still be an atg. Lopez can too.

That's fair enough if you're speaking for you, was interpreting it as you stating as a fact it won't harm his legacy

[Onetimeonly]

And my point is that your language consistently makes it sound like you're claiming it's only the fan-boy 'enter the Matrix' crew who rated him as a potential ATG. The reality is that many seasoned observers did as well. Ergo it follows that his legacy will be harmed from this defeat (my original point).
Great that you're happy with holding the minority view, but that shouldn't be stopping you from acknowledging objectively that his legacy will be tarnished in the eyes of the vast majority of people.

I'm just speaking for me. The majority of people don't really know how to evaluate a resume. You need to look at that.

He can still be an atg. Lopez can too.

That's fair enough if you're speaking for you, was interpreting it as you stating as a fact it won't harm his legacy

Obviously it should majorly affect those who thought he was the goat. I was pretty impressed with his toughness and that he tried to step it up against a great counter puncher.

[Deserter]

I'm just speaking for me. The majority of people don't really know how to evaluate a resume. You need to look at that.

He can still be an atg. Lopez can too.

That's fair enough if you're speaking for you, was interpreting it as you stating as a fact it won't harm his legacy

Obviously it should majorly affect those who thought he was the goat. I was pretty impressed with his toughness and that he tried to step it up against a great counter puncher.

I was just disappointed he didn't try stepping it up sooner and genuinely expected his footwork to be far more effective. Had expected the first couple of rounds to unfold as they did as he took a look at Lopez, but then expected him to start picking him off and getting rounds in the bag. The fact he left it so long, along with letting Lopez take the initiative back in the 12th are where he fell short in terms of my expectations of him.

[Onetimeonly]

That's fair enough if you're speaking for you, was interpreting it as you stating as a fact it won't harm his legacy

Obviously it should majorly affect those who thought he was the goat. I was pretty impressed with his toughness and that he tried to step it up against a great counter puncher.

I was just disappointed he didn't try stepping it up sooner and genuinely expected his footwork to be far more effective. Had expected the first couple of rounds to unfold as they did as he took a look at Lopez, but then expected him to start picking him off and getting rounds in the bag. The fact he left it so long, along with letting Lopez take the initiative back in the 12th are where he fell short in terms of my expectations of him.

I don't think he let him do anything, teo took that last round. He's better than loma, stepping it up earlier(agree it was obvious he couldn't out-box him) might have worn lope z down, he was visibly tired late making the 12th Rd ass whipping ever more impressive, but even more likely to get him knocked out.

[Deserter]

Obviously it should majorly affect those who thought he was the goat. I was pretty impressed with his toughness and that he tried to step it up against a great counter puncher.

I was just disappointed he didn't try stepping it up sooner and genuinely expected his footwork to be far more effective. Had expected the first couple of rounds to unfold as they did as he took a look at Lopez, but then expected him to start picking him off and getting rounds in the bag. The fact he left it so long, along with letting Lopez take the initiative back in the 12th are where he fell short in terms of my expectations of him.

but even more likely to get him knocked out.

And I guess that's my point in essence - the greats have frequently been defined by that willingness to roll those dice if that is what it takes to turn the fight around (hence the earlier reference to Leonard turning aggressor against Hearns). To your point, there was the fact he wasn't able to do what he normally does, to my point the fact he wasn't willing to risk something else is what left me feeling most let-down.

[Onetimeonly]

Ok, I don't see why, but you can't change how you feel. He rallied best as he could.

[Deserter]

Ok, I don't see why, but you can't change how you feel. He rallied best as he could.

And I think that's where we'll have to politely disagree. As many others have already commented, he effectively gave away the fight by not doing anything in the entire first half of the fight. For me, there's no way of reconciling that with the idea he rallied as best he could.

[Onetimeonly]

Different expectations, sounds like the Leonard fought the wrong fight in Montreal nonsense.

[TheLeprechaun]

Ok, I don't see why, but you can't change how you feel. He rallied best as he could.

He could have went for it more though. The willingness to risk getting caught wasn't there. Compare that to Lennox vs Vitali. Lewis went all out aggression and took shots to land his own. Loma was trying to make sure he didn't get hit instead of accepting that he possibly could in order to get his own shots off. In order to win this fight he was simply going to have to impose his style and it turned out that the only way to do that was to take big risks, possibly getting caught. It's not like he wasn't having success when he was actually throwing shots. I think if he'd have upped the tempo he'd probably have been hurt and stopped. Teofimo clearly got his respect early.

[TheLeprechaun]

and lets give Lomachenko some respect here.

This is a guy who tried to fight the best at featherweight and got ducked. What did he do? Moved up to superfeather. Beat up some of them and then got ducked by the rest. What did he do? Moved up to lightweight and tried to fight the best.

Compare that to GGG who has a shocking career by comparison. Lomachenko wouldn't have stayed at 160 fighting cans like GGG waiting for 154 pounders to come up. He would have went to 168 and then 175 if he got ducked there too.

[Trent]

Would like to see a rematch. I feel loma has him worked out now and won't wait 7 rounds to pull the trigger.

[Boxerbeetle]

and lets give Lomachenko some respect here.

This is a guy who tried to fight the best at featherweight and got ducked. What did he do? Moved up to superfeather. Beat up some of them and then got ducked by the rest. What did he do? Moved up to lightweight and tried to fight the best.

Compare that to GGG who has a shocking career by comparison. Lomachenko wouldn't have stayed at 160 fighting cans like GGG waiting for 154 pounders to come up. He would have went to 168 and then 175 if he got ducked there too.

I’ve never been quite as sold on Loma as some, but no doubt that he’s always sought to fight the best

[MightyWarrior]

I wouldn’t want to see a rematch: taking on lopez swapping punches early would’ve been suicidal, a near mission impossible.
As they say, weight divisions are there for a reason; it was a true 130lb fighter taking on a welterweight.
Loma is in the wrong weight division, like that other great fighter Chocolatito - he should go back to 130.. We don’t get to see the best of him at 135, it’s like he’s 3/4 the fighter he really is.

A hell of a chin on him - and a terrific fighter, all credit to him for ducking no one.

Let’s see Lopez in with someone his own size soon - like the man from Edinburgh.

[NoScoutingReports]

Let’s see Lopez in with someone his own size soon - like the man from Edinburgh.

This! Would be a great watch.

[Counter-puncher]

Ok, I don't see why, but you can't change how you feel. He rallied best as he could.

And I think that's where we'll have to politely disagree. As many others have already commented, he effectively gave away the fight by not doing anything in the entire first half of the fight. For me, there's no way of reconciling that with the idea he rallied as best he could.

Loma's a pretty short-armed dude without a big punch (especially at 135) who was out-sped by a dude with a bigger punch and longer arms. Even when loma was producing more activity later in the fight, Lopez was whistling the counters back at him in a way that way always dangerous.

I think the call that Loma could/should have rolled the dice is just a tad unfair, or more like what I want to say, an unrealistic expectation. The fighters able to change the style completely, on a dime, when they are down in a fight, against a fellow elite fighter- they are few and far between and IMO the very fact that you quote Leonard vs Hearns as an example illustrates that (he's the exception to the rule).

For one thing for some fighters, their style is so evolved and ingrained in them, that I'm not sure if they aren't literally unable to change it, too many habits, too deeply inculcated in them, over too long a period of time*. Loma's whole style has been about using his footwork, feints and overall movement, to put him in a position where he eventually could throw combinations with relatively low risk, as by the time Loma was letting his hands go, his opponents had been so overwhelmed at the level of skills/tactics, that their boxing brains were basically fried.

If he doesn't manage to procure for himself that pronounced advantage and mental edge in the fight based on skills (where he has basically managed to make his opponents essentially passive, by the time he is letting his hands go at them), if his opponent is still in the fight technically, still able to stay poised and ready to counter amidst all the feints Loma is throwing, then I can't see Loma being able to commit to any more.

basically, TLDR, Loma built a style and relied on it completely, so completely that he couldn't bring himself out of it when it mattered.


*imagine if Mayweather had been in the same position. Do any of us think he would have ended up throwing caution to the wind/rolling the dice/insert cliche here, and really let his hands go in the last few rounds? Nah. whilst the other dude is a threat, Floyd's hands are staying at home for the most part. It's why i don't see it as a huge criticism of Loma, not changing his style. Very few do, as virtually none of them can, and that's especially true of fighters like Loma and Floyd where the style is the fighter (you know like where some fighters are like the sum total of their physical attributes, and some are pure expressions of their styles? something like that)