gil's Refined Ranking System

[gilgamesh]

"Relentless" Lamon Brewster

With a record of 35-6 (30 KO's). Brewster competed in 6 Heavyweight Championship fights and has a record of 4-2 in them.

He has 2 Quality wins (Wladimir Kiltschko and Andrew Golota) and 1 All Time Great win (Klitschko)

His overall score comes to 152 points

[gilgamesh]

Chris Byrd

With a record of 41-5-1 (22 KO's). Byrd competed in 7 Heavyweight Championship bouts, and has a record of 5-2 in them.

He has 4 Quality wins (Arthur Williams, Vitali Klitschko, David Tua and Evander Holyfield). 1 of them is a Non Title Gold star victory (Tua)

Byrd is the first case I've come across of a guy who competed mostly as a Heavyweight who's Non Heavyweight bouts add absolutely zilch to his legacy. In fact since he lost a Light Heavyweight bout to Shaun George it actually detracts from his overall standing, but luckily for him since the loss to George was not a Heavyweight bout, it does not count towards his Heavyweight score.

As a Heavyweight Chris Byrd has a score of 136 points

Overall his score is 121 points

[gilgamesh]

Tony "TNT" Tucker

With a record of 57-7 (43 KO's). Tucker competed in 4 Heavyweight Championship fights, and has a record of 1-3 in them.

He has 2 Quality wins (Buster Douglas and Oliver McCall)

His overall score comes to 71 points

[gilgamesh]

Shannon "The Cannon" Briggs

With a record of 60-6-1 (53 KO's). Briggs competed in 5 Heavyweight Championship fights, and has a record of 2-3 in them.

He has 2 Quality wins (George Foreman and Sergei Liakhovich)

His overall score comes to 140 points

[gilgamesh]

John "The Quiet Man" Ruiz

With a record of 44-9-1 (30 KO's). He competed in 10 Heavyweight Championship bouts and has a record of 5-5 in them.

He has 2 Quality wins (Evander Holyfield 2 and Hasim Rahman)

Several of his bouts were close being Split or Majority Decisions.

His overall score comes to 68 points

[gilgamesh]

"The Boksburg Bomber" Gerrie Coetzee

With a record of 33-6-1 (21 KO's). Coetzee competed in 3 Heavyweight Championship bouts, and has a record of 1-2 in them.

He has 1 Quality win (Michael Dokes)

His overall score comes to 37 points

[gilgamesh]

"Gentleman" Gerry Cooney

With a record of 28-3 (24 KO's. Cooney competed in 2 Heavyweight Championship bouts and has a record of 0-2 in them.

He has 2 Quality wins (Jimmy Young and Ken Norton)

His overall score comes to 32 points

[keithmoonhangover]

"Gentleman" Gerry Cooney

With a record of 28-3 (24 KO's. Cooney competed in 2 Heavyweight Championship bouts and has a record of 0-2 in them.

He has 2 Quality wins (Jimmy Young and Ken Norton)

His overall score comes to 32 points

Tommy Morrison has more than 7 x the amount of points that Cooney does. Strange that.

[gilgamesh]

"Gentleman" Gerry Cooney

With a record of 28-3 (24 KO's. Cooney competed in 2 Heavyweight Championship bouts and has a record of 0-2 in them.

He has 2 Quality wins (Jimmy Young and Ken Norton)

His overall score comes to 32 points

Tommy Morrison has more than 7 x the amount of points that Cooney does. Strange that.

It's really not. He has 20 more wins, the same amount of losses and he beat George Foreman as opposed to lost to him. He also won 2 out of 4 World Title fights. While Cooney lost both of his.

[keithmoonhangover]

"Gentleman" Gerry Cooney

With a record of 28-3 (24 KO's. Cooney competed in 2 Heavyweight Championship bouts and has a record of 0-2 in them.

He has 2 Quality wins (Jimmy Young and Ken Norton)

His overall score comes to 32 points

Tommy Morrison has more than 7 x the amount of points that Cooney does. Strange that.

It's really not. He has 20 more wins, the same amount of losses and he beat George Foreman as opposed to lost to him. He also won 2 out of 4 World Title fights. While Cooney lost both of his.

20 more wins over cans means nothing. Zero. Cooney had losses to unbeaten Holmes, unbeaten Spinks and old man George. Morrison lost to Michael Friggin' Bentt in one round and could only draw with Ross Purrity.

Cooney's title fights were for the Lineal Heavyweight Championship. You comparing those to winning a vacant WBO and defending it against Tim Tomashek is absolutely laughable.

[gilgamesh]

Tommy Morrison has more than 7 x the amount of points that Cooney does. Strange that.

It's really not. He has 20 more wins, the same amount of losses and he beat George Foreman as opposed to lost to him. He also won 2 out of 4 World Title fights. While Cooney lost both of his.

20 more wins over cans means nothing. Zero. Cooney had losses to unbeaten Holmes, unbeaten Spinks and old man George. Morrison lost to Michael Friggin' Bentt in one round and could only draw with Ross Purrity.

Cooney's title fights were for the Lineal Heavyweight Championship. You comparing those to winning a vacant WBO and defending it against Tim Tomashek is absolutely laughable.

Every fight that Tommy Morrison lost was for a Heavyweight Championship.

20 more wins over cans means 20 more wins. Nothing more, nothing less.

Almost all of Morrison's fights are available on video which makes it easier to assess his wins than Cooney who has about 10 of his wins on video.

Morrison has a Gold star victory on his record (Foreman). Cooney does not.

Morrison's record may largely be a product of shrewd management I'll grant you that. Nevertheless he's got the W's, and the video evidence that many fighters lack. Hence his high score.

I didn't make these guys' records up. They fought the fights and they are what they are.

Don't get mad at me for saying Morrison was better than Cooney. Get mad at Cooney for failing to prove he was superior to Morrison.

Or don't get mad at all because it's not that important and you shouldn't take it personally how I rank people. You could also do that.

[gilgamesh]

I also never said that the title bouts Morrison competed in were more important or even as important as the ones Cooney competed in. I simply stated that he won a few of the ones he was involved in.

As far as how important a title was, that's part of the system as well.

Alphabet title = +5
Unified title = +10
Undisputed Title = +20

If Cooney had defeated Holmes it would've been an All Time Great victory and a gigantic boost to his overall score, but he didn't, and it wasn't.

Way she goes buddy.

[keithmoonhangover]

It's really not. He has 20 more wins, the same amount of losses and he beat George Foreman as opposed to lost to him. He also won 2 out of 4 World Title fights. While Cooney lost both of his.

20 more wins over cans means nothing. Zero. Cooney had losses to unbeaten Holmes, unbeaten Spinks and old man George. Morrison lost to Michael Friggin' Bentt in one round and could only draw with Ross Purrity.

Cooney's title fights were for the Lineal Heavyweight Championship. You comparing those to winning a vacant WBO and defending it against Tim Tomashek is absolutely laughable.

Every fight that Tommy Morrison lost was for a Heavyweight Championship.

[gilgamesh]

20 more wins over cans means nothing. Zero. Cooney had losses to unbeaten Holmes, unbeaten Spinks and old man George. Morrison lost to Michael Friggin' Bentt in one round and could only draw with Ross Purrity.

Cooney's title fights were for the Lineal Heavyweight Championship. You comparing those to winning a vacant WBO and defending it against Tim Tomashek is absolutely laughable.

Every fight that Tommy Morrison lost was for a Heavyweight Championship.

Fact of life. Mercer, Bentt and Lennox Lewis were all World Title bouts.

[keithmoonhangover]

Every fight that Tommy Morrison lost was for a Heavyweight Championship.

Fact of life. Mercer, Bentt and Lennox Lewis were all World Title bouts.

Stop it dude, you're embarrassing yourself.

[gilgamesh]

How? I've stated a fact. You disagreeing with that fact is of no consequence. Facts don't need you to agree with them.

[keithmoonhangover]

How? I've stated a fact. You disagreeing with that fact is of no consequence. Facts don't need you to agree with them.

Fighting Holmes and Spinks for the Heavyweight Championship is a million miles for fighting Michael Bentt, can you not see that?

[gilgamesh]

How? I've stated a fact. You disagreeing with that fact is of no consequence. Facts don't need you to agree with them.

Fighting Holmes and Spinks for the Heavyweight Championship is a million miles for fighting Michael Bentt, can you not see that?

I see it just fine, but THE Heavyweight Championship and an Alphabet Title are still technically both World Title bouts. I agree that Larry Holmes and Michael Spinks were THE Champion at the time Cooney fought them, and that's obviously the more prestigious matchup. Don't matter much when you don't win it though.

But yes from the moment that Larry Holmes defeated Muhammad Ali he was also the Lineal Heavyweight Champion to go along with being WBC and later IBF Champion.

[keithmoonhangover]

How? I've stated a fact. You disagreeing with that fact is of no consequence. Facts don't need you to agree with them.

Fighting Holmes and Spinks for the Heavyweight Championship is a million miles for fighting Michael Bentt, can you not see that?

I see it just fine, but THE Heavyweight Championship and an Alphabet Title are still technically both World Title bouts. I agree that Larry Holmes and Michael Spinks were THE Champion at the time Cooney fought them, and that's obviously the more prestigious matchup. Don't matter much when you don't win it though.

But yes from the moment that Larry Holmes defeated Muhammad Ali he was also the Lineal Heavyweight Champion to go along with being WBC and later IBF Champion.

To give me an understanding of your system, can you tell me the points you scored/deducted for the following.

Cooney's loss to Holmes
Cooney's loss to Spinks

Morrison's loss to Bentt
Morrison's loss to Mercer
Morrison's draw with Purrity

[gilgamesh]

Fighting Holmes and Spinks for the Heavyweight Championship is a million miles for fighting Michael Bentt, can you not see that?

I see it just fine, but THE Heavyweight Championship and an Alphabet Title are still technically both World Title bouts. I agree that Larry Holmes and Michael Spinks were THE Champion at the time Cooney fought them, and that's obviously the more prestigious matchup. Don't matter much when you don't win it though.

But yes from the moment that Larry Holmes defeated Muhammad Ali he was also the Lineal Heavyweight Champion to go along with being WBC and later IBF Champion.

To give me an understanding of your system, can you tell me the points you scored/deducted for the following.

Cooney's loss to Holmes
Cooney's loss to Spinks

Morrison's loss to Bentt
Morrison's loss to Mercer
Morrison's draw with Purrity

Cooney's loss to Holmes. -20
Cooney's loss to Spinks. - 20

Morrison's loss to Bentt. -30
Morrison's loss to Mercer. -20

Morrison's Draw with Purrity was a gain of either 2 or 3 points. I'd have to look at my notebook to say for sure. I don't count Draws as losses, but they usually don't get many positive points either. You get a few points for participation basically and that's about it.

[keithmoonhangover]

I see it just fine, but THE Heavyweight Championship and an Alphabet Title are still technically both World Title bouts. I agree that Larry Holmes and Michael Spinks were THE Champion at the time Cooney fought them, and that's obviously the more prestigious matchup. Don't matter much when you don't win it though.

But yes from the moment that Larry Holmes defeated Muhammad Ali he was also the Lineal Heavyweight Champion to go along with being WBC and later IBF Champion.

To give me an understanding of your system, can you tell me the points you scored/deducted for the following.

Cooney's loss to Holmes
Cooney's loss to Spinks

Morrison's loss to Bentt
Morrison's loss to Mercer
Morrison's draw with Purrity

Cooney's loss to Holmes. -20
Cooney's loss to Spinks. - 20

Morrison's loss to Bentt. -30
Morrison's loss to Mercer. -20

Morrison's Draw with Purrity was a gain of either 2 or 3 points. I'd have to look at my notebook to say for sure. I don't count Draws as losses, but they usually don't get many positive points either. You get a few points for participation basically and that's about it.

So losing to Larry Holmes at his absolute peak, is the same as losing to Ray Mercer? This is the same Mercer who lost to Larry Holmes in his very next fight, ten years after Holmes fought Cooney.

[gilgamesh]

A loss is a loss. A KO loss is a KO loss.

I will give a +10 to negate some of the negative effects of a loss if a fighter gives a particularly stirring effort against a great opponent. Think Holyfield vs Bowe 1 or Ali vs Frazier or Frazier vs Ali in their 3rd bout.

Otherwise than that. Ain't nobody's career or legacy ever been helped by getting their ass kicked.

[gilgamesh]

"The Black Destroyer" Earnie Shavers

With a record of 76-14-1 (70 KO's). Shavers competed in 2 Heavyweight Championship bouts, and has a record of 0-2 in them.

He has 2 Quality wins (Jimmy Ellis and Ken Norton) with 1 of them being a Non Title Gold Star victory (Norton)

His overall score comes to 15 points

[tiny_acres]

A loss is a loss. A KO loss is a KO loss.

I will give a +10 to negate some of the negative effects of a loss if a fighter gives a particularly stirring effort against a great opponent. Think Holyfield vs Bowe 1 or Ali vs Frazier or Frazier vs Ali in their 3rd bout.

Otherwise than that. Ain't nobody's career or legacy ever been helped by getting their ass kicked.

Just a quick question.
You count Norton as a gold star opponent for every fighter except Cooney.
Why is Norton not a gold star opponent for Cooney.

[gilgamesh]

A loss is a loss. A KO loss is a KO loss.

I will give a +10 to negate some of the negative effects of a loss if a fighter gives a particularly stirring effort against a great opponent. Think Holyfield vs Bowe 1 or Ali vs Frazier or Frazier vs Ali in their 3rd bout.

Otherwise than that. Ain't nobody's career or legacy ever been helped by getting their ass kicked.

Just a quick question.
You count Norton as a gold star opponent for every fighter except Coomey.
Why is Norton not a gold star opponent for Cooney.

Past his best by then, and had dropped from a 4 to a 3 in terms of Quality. Performance wise for Cooney obviously it couldn't have gone better.