BoxRec

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:

Adamj1987 wrote:its simply not done that way - ideally it would be but by the time the ref has gone over to the time keeper and told how long the guys been down it could be over and the fighter has only stayed down to catch their breath waiting for the 8 count but then told its been 10 seconds its finished

No offence but have you ever actually been to a fight? The timekeeper stands up (if he needs to) and shows his hand(s) relating to how many seconds have gone. The ref doesn't need to 'go' anywhere - he simply looks over. Most counts start at two or three.

yes ive been to many big and small btu have u ever seen the ref look at the time keeper the length of teh count? no he looks at the fighter which means its still down to how fast he counts

Bottom line is its the refs count that's decisive and Taylor beat it.

I was fairly surprised it wasn't waved off after the knock down. Taylor was still down at 8 and when he got up he didn't look in a fit state to continue to me. As for the 'long' count, it looked like a 13 second count, but I'd say it falls within acceptable levels, not exactly Bute Andrade territory. I'd also agree with whats already been said, Taylor showed tremendous courage, especially in the final 2 rounds.

CheckHook wrote:I was fairly surprised it wasn't waved off after the knock down. Taylor was still down at 8 and when he got up he didn't look in a fit state to continue to me.

I agree, if he wasn't the hometown fighter it would have been waved off after the 1st knockdown, Jermaine was gone by then.

Adamj1987 wrote:have u ever seen the ref look at the time keeper the length of teh count?

Yes, fecking loads of times, especially to pick the count up. As I've said, after that, it's up to the ref - so I'm agreeing with you on that.

I remember being annoyed when Tyson 'knocked out' Douglas but Douglas was given 14 seconds to get up and then won. I know Tyson would have been found out eventually, but it annoyed me that the greatest champ of that time was mugged off by a dodgy ref and a dodgy count. Froch fans would have been equally annoyed although to be fair it wasn't as bad as the Tyson mugging.

I think the ref did a good job on Saturday. He gave Taylor every chance but stopped it at the right time. Good refereeing.

finchy36 wrote:I remember being annoyed when Tyson 'knocked out' Douglas but Douglas was given 14 seconds to get up and then won. I know Tyson would have been found out eventually, but it annoyed me that the greatest champ of that time was mugged off by a dodgy ref and a dodgy count. Froch fans would have been equally annoyed although to be fair it wasn't as bad as the Tyson mugging.

I think the ref did a good job on Saturday. He gave Taylor every chance but stopped it at the right time. Good refereeing.

http://tinyurl.com/dxf33p

Thanks Hagler, that's a great link. Makes my limited mind even more mushed!!!! Thanks anyway

Here is the extract from the BBB of C rules manual avaliable to all at:

http://www.bbbofc.com/documentation.php

- - - - - - - - - - -

3.32 Should a Boxer go down to the floor as the result of a legitimate blow, the Timekeeper
shall count off the seconds strictly in accordance with his watch. The opponent shall
retire immediately to the furthest neutral corner and neither Boxer shall resume boxing
until ordered to do so by the Referee.

3.32.1 In this Regulation 3.32, “down” shall mean one or more of the following:-

(a) when a Boxer falls from the boxing ring beyond the ring apron as a result of a
legitimate blow; or
(b) when a Boxer is on one foot or both feet and at the same time any other part of
his body is touching the floor of the boxing ring; or
(c) when a Boxer is supported on the ropes of the boxing ring and, in the opinion of
the Referee, is unable to defend himself; or
(d) when a Boxer is in the act of rising
and in all of the above cases, a Boxer shall be considered to be down until he has
regained his feet within the boxing ring and is in a position and a condition to defend
himself.

3.33 If a Boxer is “down” under the provisions of Regulation 3.32.1(a) he must return to
the boxing ring unassisted within twenty seconds. In all other cases mentioned above,
he must regain his feet unassisted within ten seconds. The Referee shall not permit a
Boxer to continue boxing, if in his opinion he is able to do so, until the expiration of 8
seconds following the knock down.

3.33.1 A Boxer failing to continue with a Contest after the intervals specified above shall not
be awarded any points for that round but will have 10 points deducted from his score.
His opponent shall receive ten points and be declared the winner.

3.33.2 If a Boxer regains his feet in the boxing ring within the specified intervals but fails to
satisfy the Referee that he is in a position and condition to defend himself, the Referee
shall stop the Contest and deduct ten points from this score. He shall award the
opponent ten points and declare him the winner.

3.33.3 A Referee shall have the power to interrupt the count where he considers that a fallen
Boxer is in need of urgent medical attention and in such cases the opponent shall be
declared the winner by a technical count out (T.C.O.).

3.33.4 A Referee may consult the ringside doctor at any stage concerning the fitness of a
boxer to continue a Contest.

3.34 If at any time during a Contest the Referee decides in his complete discretion that one
contestant is outclassed or is unable to continue as a result of injury, or is not in a
position to continue boxing or, at the conclusion of any round, is ten points or more
behind his opponent, he shall stop the Contest and declare the opponent the winner.

terrez wrote:3.32 Should a Boxer go down to the floor as the result of a legitimate blow, the Timekeeper
shall count off the seconds strictly in accordance with his watch.

Thank you, terrez.

terrez wrote:Here is the extract from the BBB of C rules manual avaliable to all at:

http://www.bbbofc.com/documentation.php

- - - - - - - - - - -

3.32 Should a Boxer go down to the floor as the result of a legitimate blow, the Timekeeper
shall count off the seconds strictly in accordance with his watch. The opponent shall
retire immediately to the furthest neutral corner and neither Boxer shall resume boxing
until ordered to do so by the Referee.

3.32.1 In this Regulation 3.32, “down” shall mean one or more of the following:-

(a) when a Boxer falls from the boxing ring beyond the ring apron as a result of a
legitimate blow; or
(b) when a Boxer is on one foot or both feet and at the same time any other part of
his body is touching the floor of the boxing ring; or
(c) when a Boxer is supported on the ropes of the boxing ring and, in the opinion of
the Referee, is unable to defend himself; or
(d) when a Boxer is in the act of rising
and in all of the above cases, a Boxer shall be considered to be down until he has
regained his feet within the boxing ring and is in a position and a condition to defend
himself.

3.33 If a Boxer is “down” under the provisions of Regulation 3.32.1(a) he must return to
the boxing ring unassisted within twenty seconds. In all other cases mentioned above,
he must regain his feet unassisted within ten seconds. The Referee shall not permit a
Boxer to continue boxing, if in his opinion he is able to do so, until the expiration of 8
seconds following the knock down.

3.33.1 A Boxer failing to continue with a Contest after the intervals specified above shall not
be awarded any points for that round but will have 10 points deducted from his score.
His opponent shall receive ten points and be declared the winner.

3.33.2 If a Boxer regains his feet in the boxing ring within the specified intervals but fails to
satisfy the Referee that he is in a position and condition to defend himself, the Referee
shall stop the Contest and deduct ten points from this score. He shall award the
opponent ten points and declare him the winner.

3.33.3 A Referee shall have the power to interrupt the count where he considers that a fallen
Boxer is in need of urgent medical attention and in such cases the opponent shall be
declared the winner by a technical count out (T.C.O.).

3.33.4 A Referee may consult the ringside doctor at any stage concerning the fitness of a
boxer to continue a Contest.

3.34 If at any time during a Contest the Referee decides in his complete discretion that one
contestant is outclassed or is unable to continue as a result of injury, or is not in a
position to continue boxing or, at the conclusion of any round, is ten points or more
behind his opponent, he shall stop the Contest and declare the opponent the winner.

Doesn't seem to mention if the count starts once the opponent goes to the neutral corner or when the knocked down fighter hits the floor. Also this isnt BBB of C rules is it?

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Doesn't seem to mention if the count starts once the opponent goes to the neutral corner or when the knocked down fighter hits the floor.

It's when the fighter goes down. It seems pretty clear unless I'm being overly simplistic.

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Doesn't seem to mention if the count starts once the opponent goes to the neutral corner or when the knocked down fighter hits the floor.

It's when the fighter goes down. It seems pretty clear unless I'm being overly simplistic.

Its when the ref starts the count, the timekeeper can count to 20 before the ref decides to start counting and his decision is the one that matters.

Regardless of the argument of how it should be done, go watch a dozen knockdowns and time the count. I am willing to bet that more than 50% of counts are slow.

tobyh5 wrote:Regardless of the argument of how it should be done, go watch a dozen knockdowns and time the count. I am willing to bet that more than 50% of counts are slow.

id probably say something lik75-80% are slow just no-one seems to count it unless its in the last round of a fight or its been a close contest -i doubt anyone complained if hatton had a long count after first knock down vs mayweather

I doubt most ref's counts are exact to the second. All the fighter has to do is beat the ref's count though. If he's counting slow, bonus.

Slowest count I've seen was actually Tyson-Williams, never mind Tyson-Douglas. The ref was doing all he could to make that fight follow the script. Sadly Tyson knew the game was up at that point.

Hagler2002 wrote:

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Doesn't seem to mention if the count starts once the opponent goes to the neutral corner or when the knocked down fighter hits the floor.

It's when the fighter goes down. It seems pretty clear unless I'm being overly simplistic.

Its when the ref starts the count, the timekeeper can count to 20 before the ref decides to start counting and his decision is the one that matters.

Yes, yes, we know that. Same as it's a football ref's decision if he wants to ignore the rules too. Then he gets disciplined by the assessors.

Hagler2002 wrote:

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Doesn't seem to mention if the count starts once the opponent goes to the neutral corner or when the knocked down fighter hits the floor.

It's when the fighter goes down. It seems pretty clear unless I'm being overly simplistic.

Its when the ref starts the count, the timekeeper can count to 20 before the ref decides to start counting and his decision is the one that matters.

that is my understanding of it as well.

Its the referees count of 10 that matters - all others counts and the actual time elapsed itself is immaterial.

Hagler2002 wrote:

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Doesn't seem to mention if the count starts once the opponent goes to the neutral corner or when the knocked down fighter hits the floor.

It's when the fighter goes down. It seems pretty clear unless I'm being overly simplistic.

Its when the ref starts the count, the timekeeper can count to 20 before the ref decides to start counting and his decision is the one that matters.

Take a scenario such as Ali-Liston, now Ali stood over Liston for 15-20seconds, if Liston gets up hes in danger of being punched on the way up so waits until Ali is rightfully sent to the neutral corner. Now Ali-Liston 2 was certainly stopped incorrectly

Its the referees count of 10 that matters - all others counts and the actual time elapsed itself is immaterial.[/quote]

Not correct, it is supposed to be a total of ten seconds from the timekeeper starting the count and the referee concluding it.

In practice, this is very hard to do correctly - the ref is not a clock and does not have time to be looking at his watch to toll the count.

it may well supposed to be ten seconds but 90% is it fook accurate, how the frigg do you vount to exactly ten secs anyway.

its the refs counts that matters in reality.

It was 13.7 I just timed it.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

rhino222 wrote:taylor was still on the floor at 8, i know in the uk if you are still on the floor at 8 the ref will wave his hands and end the fight. it was 9.5 when taylor was on his feet, the ref gave him every chance. if taylor had taken another count, on one knee, and used up another 9 seconds, he would be champion today..

Taylor was too out of it to make a decision like that. Had he taken a knee in any case, the ref may well have stopped it.

exactly..the ref MAY have stopped it, surely then that means that the ref might not have stopped it, certainly a chance worth taking.

Most counts are long and the ref has the final say. The timekeeper can not call off the fight.

If you look at most count outs, they usually last about 13 seconds from the time the guy hits the floor to the ref`s count of 10.

As for Taylor taking a knee, he was in no state to take a knee. He was done after the knockdown and could well have been stopped there and then. He took some heavy beating after the knockdown.

rhino222 wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

rhino222 wrote:taylor was still on the floor at 8, i know in the uk if you are still on the floor at 8 the ref will wave his hands and end the fight. it was 9.5 when taylor was on his feet, the ref gave him every chance. if taylor had taken another count, on one knee, and used up another 9 seconds, he would be champion today..

Taylor was too out of it to make a decision like that. Had he taken a knee in any case, the ref may well have stopped it.

exactly..the ref MAY have stopped it, surely then that means that the ref might not have stopped it, certainly a chance worth taking.

It's a moot point - Taylor didn't know his arse from his elbow at that point in time - so he wasn't really in a fit state to be thinking about taking a knee.