BoxRec

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

enrique wrote:Tua-Marciano??????????

Used Pinto Vs Ferrari

- Must not know what elite hot rodders can do with used, beat up Pintos.

Can make any Ferrari look like a slug. They often feature articles on "beaters" who are made up as "sleepers" for that expressed applied purpose. Win bets, girls, and leave a lot of embarrassed red faces in their wake.

Nothing, "made-up" about it, friend. Tua did plenty of legitimate, "sleeping" in his biggest fight. He froze, straight-up, squandering his one chance at ever deserving a discussion like this one.

Some are more forgiving than I.

Tua didn't have the fire the burned inside a guy like Marciano. Simply put, he didn't have a life and death mentality about boxing, in or out of the ring. Marciano takes him apart.

boxing_fanatic_87 wrote: I've noticed a few people made the comment about Tua's being fat against Lennox, bare in mind when I mentioned the fight between Tua vs Marciano I meant, Prime well conditioned Tua vs Prime well conditioned Marciano, not fat Tua vs Marciano.

- Tua was 245 against Lewis. It was rumoured he suffered a training injury a week before.

Regardless, he was 233 against Byrd, dropping a decision, and seems to have used that fight as the basis to beat the just as shifty undefeated southpaw Oquendo by KO at 242. Next fight he's 243 and blasts out Moorer in seconds.

Tua could be inconsistant, again, probably due to management problems, but I like to compare the best each beat and see how they match up with each other.

Rocky's best win is Walcott, then Charles, then Louis, and then Moore. All but Charles could be considered well past prime age physically, though they were still good fighters, and Charles also had very high mileage.

Tua did a highlight KO on soon to be perennial champ/contender Ruiz, KOed much later to be champ Maskaev, and was the first to beat undefeated perennial champ/contender Rahman, also by KO, then era contender southpaw Oquendo, also by late KO, and former champ Moore in another highlight KO.

Fast Fres/Moorer/Ruiz the smallest dwarf Rocky's best. All had good basic skills and all but Ruiz and Oquendo had significant KO power and all at prime age compared to Rocky's battleworn best.

Think Rocky is gonna have a lot more problems with Tua's schedule than Tua would have against Rocky's schedule.

You can't dis-connect Tua from what acually occured i.e. a 'prime in-shape' Tua.

Tua was only really in top shape the first few years of his career. Most of his career was over 225 over-massed and flat-footed.

Yes Rocky's biggest wins were against small heavyweights, but this comes down to pure skill and conditioning. Some people want to believe that in Rocky's complete boxing career from amateur to sparring to his pro career he never faced a guy who hit as hard as Tua, which is ridiculous. I would put Layne and an older Louis in Tua's power-range, and the likes of Walcott while probably not hitting as hard punch for punch was MUCH better at timing and hitting guys with punches they couldn't see coming than the straight-line charging Samoan. Compared to Jersey Joe Marciano would find Tua's punches fairly easy to dodge.

Tua was flat-footed, one-dimensional, and would tire from a hard pace. If you look at the Ike fight Tua threw some nice punches here and there but Ike completly outpunched him which is why he lost. Tua always had a problem of 'falling alseep' in the ring and getting outworked. He could score late come from behind knockouts vs the likes of a Oquendo, Nicholson, and Rahman (which was a BS stoppage BTW from a hit after the bell) but vs a Marciano who at his best was actually much harder to hit flush than the likes of Oquendo, Maskaev or Rahman and in much better condition, I give the solid edge to the guy who was one of the best conditioned HWs of all time.


Now vs a bigger guy who could hit and box, like Lewis . . .I see Marciano having many more problems and probably losing on a late stoppage.

dempseyfire wrote:You can't dis-connect Tua from what acually occured i.e. a 'prime in-shape' Tua.

Tua was only really in top shape the first few years of his career. Most of his career was over 225 over-massed and flat-footed.

Yes Rocky's biggest wins were against small heavyweights, but this comes down to pure skill and conditioning. Some people want to believe that in Rocky's complete boxing career from amateur to sparring to his pro career he never faced a guy who hit as hard as Tua, which is ridiculous. I would put Layne and an older Louis in Tua's power-range, and the likes of Walcott while probably not hitting as hard punch for punch was MUCH better at timing and hitting guys with punches they couldn't see coming than the straight-line charging Samoan. Compared to Jersey Joe Marciano would find Tua's punches fairly easy to dodge.

Tua was flat-footed, one-dimensional, and would tire from a hard pace. If you look at the Ike fight Tua threw some nice punches here and there but Ike completly outpunched him which is why he lost. Tua always had a problem of 'falling alseep' in the ring and getting outworked. He could score late come from behind knockouts vs the likes of a Oquendo, Nicholson, and Rahman (which was a BS stoppage BTW from a hit after the bell) but vs a Marciano who at his best was actually much harder to hit flush than the likes of Oquendo, Maskaev or Rahman and in much better condition, I give the solid edge to the guy who was one of the best conditioned HWs of all time.


Now vs a bigger guy who could hit and box, like Lewis . . .I see Marciano having many more problems and probably losing on a late stoppage.

Probably the best post I've seen on this subject

HomicideHenry wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:You can't dis-connect Tua from what acually occured i.e. a 'prime in-shape' Tua.

Tua was only really in top shape the first few years of his career. Most of his career was over 225 over-massed and flat-footed.

Yes Rocky's biggest wins were against small heavyweights, but this comes down to pure skill and conditioning. Some people want to believe that in Rocky's complete boxing career from amateur to sparring to his pro career he never faced a guy who hit as hard as Tua, which is ridiculous. I would put Layne and an older Louis in Tua's power-range, and the likes of Walcott while probably not hitting as hard punch for punch was MUCH better at timing and hitting guys with punches they couldn't see coming than the straight-line charging Samoan. Compared to Jersey Joe Marciano would find Tua's punches fairly easy to dodge.

Tua was flat-footed, one-dimensional, and would tire from a hard pace. If you look at the Ike fight Tua threw some nice punches here and there but Ike completly outpunched him which is why he lost. Tua always had a problem of 'falling alseep' in the ring and getting outworked. He could score late come from behind knockouts vs the likes of a Oquendo, Nicholson, and Rahman (which was a BS stoppage BTW from a hit after the bell) but vs a Marciano who at his best was actually much harder to hit flush than the likes of Oquendo, Maskaev or Rahman and in much better condition, I give the solid edge to the guy who was one of the best conditioned HWs of all time.


Now vs a bigger guy who could hit and box, like Lewis . . .I see Marciano having many more problems and probably losing on a late stoppage.

Probably the best post I've seen on this subject

How would Tua have fared against peak Rocky Balboa, Rufus?

You sure like to pick on me, eh Collins?

HomicideHenry wrote: You sure like to pick on me, eh Collins?

What's that on your chest, mister?

dempseyfire wrote: I would put Layne and an older Louis in Tua's power-range

- I'd put Bambi ahead of your selections.

Layne with a career KO% under 50% with no fighter of note KOed save Satterfield who must've been KOed a dozen or more times. Out of retirement Louis had a 30% KO ratio in 10 fights, clearly not the Lewis of old, but rampaging through the heavy ranks like caped wrecking ball hero they were according to you.

Looking forward to your next cartoon serial.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: I would put Layne and an older Louis in Tua's power-range

Looking forward to your next cartoon serial.

I'm waiting for the next installment of your cartoon, numpty.

Where were we? Oh, yes, Jack Dempsey had just KO'd Jack Johnson in 7 brutal rounds before a mob of lumberjacks up in Canada.

Can't wait for the next thrilling chapter.

It was in front of a bunch of gamblers. Sorry had to correct you.

HomicideHenry wrote:It was in front of a bunch of gamblers. Sorry had to correct you.

What sort of gamblers where they? I know lumberjacks like the occasional wager...

High stakes rollers

HomicideHenry wrote:High stakes rollers

Brilliant!

Were they secretly flown in for the secret bout in the secret location too?

And then secretly flown home?

And told to never mention the secret bout ever again on pain of being banned from future secret bouts?

mmmmmm, sounds plausible doesn't it?

What can I say, its a fairy tale I'd want to believe in.

HomicideHenry wrote:What can I say, its a fairy tale I'd want to believe in.

Sure, it was a well-written fantasy piece.

I never disputed that.

Lew Eskin wasn't gonna be associated with some poorly written tat for issue #1 of that magazine.

But how anyone could believe it was a real account is where the real humour comes in.

That statement by BRR when the article couldn't be found in the original newspaper was fekkin hilarious.

"Is it possible they stopped the presses and that is why it isn't in any copy of the original newspaper?".

As powerful as Doc Kearns was in his day, it would be hard pressed to convince most anyone that he was able to 'stop the presses'. I know Ferdie Pacheco and others made similar claims in other scandals concerning Jack Dempsey, such as Kearns telling the editor to cut out several seconds of the Firpo-Dempsey fight, so there would be no controversy over a long count. But, still, nonetheless. These are all stories with no concrete proof, no matter how dazzling they may be.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: I would put Layne and an older Louis in Tua's power-range

- I'd put Bambi ahead of your selections.

Layne with a career KO% under 50% with no fighter of note KOed save Satterfield who must've been KOed a dozen or more times. Out of retirement Louis had a 30% KO ratio in 10 fights, clearly not the Lewis of old, but rampaging through the heavy ranks like caped wrecking ball hero they were according to you.

Looking forward to your next cartoon serial.

His KO percentage was 68% clown but thanks for playing.

Now please tell me with your wonderful knowledge of stats how William Joppy was a harder hitter than Dick Tiger . . .

dempseyfire wrote: His KO percentage was 68% clown but thanks for playing.

Now please tell me with your wonderful knowledge of stats how William Joppy was a harder hitter than Dick Tiger . . .

- Not according to boxrec. More importantly, Layne never KOs anyone of significance save Satterfield who suffered many more KO losses than the norm.

Tua was knocking out champs dead cold.

I'll let you carry on your Joppy/Tiger comparison. Should prove to be a bit of sport for me.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: Tua was knocking out champs dead cold.

Amazingly, despite supposedly knocking 'champs dead cold', Tua never grabbed even a portion of the heavyweight title.

Why don't you stop babbling nonsense, numpty, and listen up for change?

You know it makes sense.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: His KO percentage was 68% clown but thanks for playing.

Now please tell me with your wonderful knowledge of stats how William Joppy was a harder hitter than Dick Tiger . . .

- Not according to boxrec. More importantly, Layne never KOs anyone of significance save Satterfield who suffered many more KO losses than the norm.

Tua was knocking out champs dead cold.

I'll let you carry on your Joppy/Tiger comparison. Should prove to be a bit of sport for me.

So did Gerry Cooney.

HomicideHenry wrote:

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: His KO percentage was 68% clown but thanks for playing.

Now please tell me with your wonderful knowledge of stats how William Joppy was a harder hitter than Dick Tiger . . .

- Not according to boxrec. More importantly, Layne never KOs anyone of significance save Satterfield who suffered many more KO losses than the norm.

Tua was knocking out champs dead cold.

I'll let you carry on your Joppy/Tiger comparison. Should prove to be a bit of sport for me.

So did Gerry Cooney.

Which champs did he knock cold, Rufus?

enrique wrote:Tua-Marciano??????????

Used Pinto Vs Ferrari

Ken Norton.

HomicideHenry wrote:Ken Norton.

That is singular and he was an ex-champ at the time.