BoxRec

josh fg wrote:as I say I just thought it was strange that Cooper who would have been around when Ali was attacked by a friend in a gurriller suite etc and he appriciates that Ali was good for boxing. I deffinatly don't think this is pushing people away from the fight it adds to the hype.

Although, even though Ali went over the top and really did offend many of his opponents... he never hyped a fight with a "killing".

Thats the difference, and for me whilst I don't find it distasteful, I can see why other can. It reminded me of when Hamed fought McCullough and Hamed ring enterance was to include his defences names in a tomb stone - with McCulloughs added... US TV nixed that idea.

Fuss over nothing!!

Haye & K2 Promotions knew they had a lot of tickets to sell - in addition Haye wanted to find a way of getting under the normally cool Klitcshko's skin - mission succeeded on both counts.

Now to the fight.

Spud wrote:Fuss over nothing!!

Haye & K2 Promotions knew they had a lot of tickets to sell - in addition Haye wanted to find a way of getting under the normally cool Klitcshko's skin - mission succeeded on both counts.

Now to the fight.

If Haye didn't have chin issues himself, I would say good tactic... but I think its a huge gamble and it could be a painful one.

I think Cooper is right the T shirt is in bad taste. I dont think it will affect his support and the number of fans who will watch the fight though. Cooper says quite positive things about Hayes potential and seems to like him more than he did Lewis. I dont understand peoples comments about Cooper being bitter. He doesnt come over that way to me. You have to remember there were no T shirts around in Coopers era and boxers entered the ring in dressing gowns they probably wore at home. At 75 he is bound to say "back in my day etc", just listen to Stirling Moss talk about F1.

It became distasteful as soon as Klitschko refused to take the bait and especially when Haye put Vitali on the T-shirt - in essence attacking the entire family instead of just the opponent. As soon as you bring family into it it has crossed a line IMO.

I like trash talking as much as the next man, but when it's between both fighters and not with one just hurling something akin to abuse to another who aims to keep their composure. If both fighters are having a verbal donnybrook then I think it's great.

Just smacks of Haye trying to say something and it's just white noise...zzzzzzzz.

I'm with the consensus here. It might be crude but it's certainly not made people turn away from the sport, if anything, it's made this match up all the more intriguing. I must also say, if Haye doesn't beat Wlad then he's going to look very silly.

Haye KO5 by the way.

overhand_right wrote:

DG. wrote: Doubt it, Haye has done more than Cooper has already.

Do you even know what you're talking about?

Henry Cooper, former British, Commonwealth and European champ, fought Muhammad Ali for the world heavyweight title, beaten world title challengers Zora Folley and Brian London, Karl Mildenberger, fought Floyd Patterson...

And David Hayes knocked out a 37 yr old Monte Barrett. And he's not even fighting the best heavyweight in the world for his world title challenge.

I'm sure what he means is that Haye has won a world title, and a linear one at that (although who knows if Cooper would have done the same if cruiserweight had been around in his day).

oliverfennell wrote:

overhand_right wrote:

DG. wrote: Doubt it, Haye has done more than Cooper has already.

Do you even know what you're talking about?

Henry Cooper, former British, Commonwealth and European champ, fought Muhammad Ali for the world heavyweight title, beaten world title challengers Zora Folley and Brian London, Karl Mildenberger, fought Floyd Patterson...

And David Hayes knocked out a 37 yr old Monte Barrett. And he's not even fighting the best heavyweight in the world for his world title challenge.

I'm sure what he means is that Haye has won a world title, and a linear one at that (although who knows if Cooper would have done the same if cruiserweight had been around in his day).

Probably not much since half of the other heavyweights would have qualified. Floyd Patterson, certainly, would have, and he starched Cooper.

Yep, true enough!

Floyd Patterson would have starched David Haye as well, so what's your point?

overhand_right wrote:Floyd Patterson would have starched David Haye as well, so what's your point?

...given Patterson's china chin, he could well be starched himself.

charlieb wrote:

overhand_right wrote:Floyd Patterson would have starched David Haye as well, so what's your point?

...given Patterson's china chin, he could well be starched himself.

I think Patterson's chin isn't given the credit it deserves. He got stopped 5 times, but 3 of these were more compasionate stoppages late in the fight... the 3 times he got KO'd early was against 2 of the biggest punchers in the sports history. He withstood some pretty heavy shots himself.

Terry D wrote:Cooper was on the Bunce hour the other day, there was absolutely no reason to bring up the Clay knockdown, but someone mentioned Hatton getting KO'd and we got, "Ah, but Hatton was in centre ring, that makes a difference, for example when I hit Clay he was near the ropes...", I have met mad people, and this is the type of logic you get.

"Wotcha pal, you having chicken for tea tonight?"

"Ah, well that is the thing, the chicken is in the pan, covered in foil, the foil can cover your head, and stop 'them' from injecting your brain with the messages."

"soft landing"

That was a new twist for me.

i dont believe the idiots on this thread.

cooper was rubbish? wow! even though he would have beaten ali/clay had the punch landed in the middle of the round. what do you guys want? maybe a lethal left hook should be discounted if the fighter who falls is technically the better man! cooper was the best british heavyweight for about 12 years solid.
the best european heavy for much of that time. then we get great boxing judges stating that david haye would have starched floyd patterson...hang on its hard to type whilst laughing....please take a look at david's resume. i like haye but he is not in pattersons league, please gentlemen. perhaps if the thread goes on like this someone will suggest david would blitz joe louis or dempsey or destroy gene tunney or make mincemeat out of archie moore. there is only one place it could happen and that is on the "hypothetical match up game" thread.

cooper was not over rated - he was probably underated if the truth be known

DavidPayne wrote:Henry Cooper would still be world champion but for the split glove, even at 75.

Look he earns a fish supper and a pint every night spouting this stuff. I often wonder whether he';d have been more gracious about everyone had he got the nod versus Bugner retired on his own terms etc.

His bitterness knows no limits.

He only weighed 4stone 9 when he fought Ali you know.

The soft landing for Ali, was a new strand of his argument for being better than GOAT.

He seems to overlook his other drubbings at world-class level. Didn't Ingo Bingo starch him? That wasn't cuts was it?

And his manager ran a mile from chalenging Liston.

He blames that on being put in the corner with the sun facing it. I've heard this before and he said it in a recent BM tribute to Ingo. Last I watched you were allowed to move around the ring...

harrygreb wrote:i dont believe the idiots on this thread.

cooper was rubbish? wow! even though he would have beaten ali/clay had the punch landed in the middle of the round. what do you guys want? maybe a lethal left hook should be discounted if the fighter who falls is technically the better man! cooper was the best british heavyweight for about 12 years solid.
the best european heavy for much of that time. then we get great boxing judges stating that david haye would have starched floyd patterson...hang on its hard to type whilst laughing....please take a look at david's resume. i like haye but he is not in pattersons league, please gentlemen. perhaps if the thread goes on like this someone will suggest david would blitz joe louis or dempsey or destroy gene tunney or make mincemeat out of archie moore. there is only one place it could happen and that is on the "hypothetical match up game" thread.

cooper was not over rated - he was probably underated if the truth be known

Be inclined to agree with this, people seem to forget that in Cooper's era it was very hard to get a title fight, sure there was a bum of the month every now and again - but still would the likes of Frans Botha, Bruce Seldon etc be classed a world champions... would Frank Bruno been given one world title fight, let alone four.

Cooper had one shot at the title, against the greatest at his peak... yet he was a long reigning European champion and beat some fantastic fighters.

I think Cooper has a right to be a little bitter - the BBBoC refused to sanction the WBC when he was offered the chance to challenge Jimmy Ellis for the title. Ellis would have been favourite, but not entirely inconceivable that Henry would have won.... seeing the likes of Bruno, Scott Welch, Danny Williams, Skelton getting world title fights must annoy him a little. Herbie Hide can call himself a two time world champion - hasn't had a win against a top ten heavyweight for my money.

harrygreb wrote:i dont believe the idiots on this thread.

cooper was rubbish? wow! even though he would have beaten ali/clay had the punch landed in the middle of the round. what do you guys want? maybe a lethal left hook should be discounted if the fighter who falls is technically the better man! cooper was the best british heavyweight for about 12 years solid.
the best european heavy for much of that time. then we get great boxing judges stating that david haye would have starched floyd patterson...hang on its hard to type whilst laughing....please take a look at david's resume. i like haye but he is not in pattersons league, please gentlemen. perhaps if the thread goes on like this someone will suggest david would blitz joe louis or dempsey or destroy gene tunney or make mincemeat out of archie moore. there is only one place it could happen and that is on the "hypothetical match up game" thread.

cooper was not over rated - he was probably underated if the truth be known

Ducked George Chuvalo whilst holding the empire title - something that irks the big Canadian to this day.

And who says he would have beaten Ali if the punch had landed when both fighters had been in centre ring? Lets just remember that Ali came back into the next round and blitzed Cooper so badly - he would have KO'd Cooper if it wasn't for the cuts.

He was the best heavyweight in western Europe for around 8 years? Big deal!

Carbo wrote:

DavidPayne wrote:Henry Cooper would still be world champion but for the split glove, even at 75.

Look he earns a fish supper and a pint every night spouting this stuff. I often wonder whether he';d have been more gracious about everyone had he got the nod versus Bugner retired on his own terms etc.

His bitterness knows no limits.

He only weighed 4stone 9 when he fought Ali you know.

The soft landing for Ali, was a new strand of his argument for being better than GOAT.

He seems to overlook his other drubbings at world-class level. Didn't Ingo Bingo starch him? That wasn't cuts was it?

And his manager ran a mile from chalenging Liston.

And didn't Patterson do to him what Liston did to Patterson? And how much heavier was Patterson than Cooper? Half a stone -- max.

Anyway, I'm not sure he's bitter. I thought the interview came across just fine. He said "I don't like to see this stuff in boxing, but I think Haye's a great fighter who looks good."

Not too much wrong with that, even though I personally thought the T-Shirt was great, from a psychological point of view.

He has very much become boxing's Fred Trueman for the new millennium, no?

"in my day"

"eeeeh i dont know whats going off out theeeyer"

etc

Unfortunately for Cooper he is neither a world class ex pro as Trueman and Boycott are (were), or genuine comedy turns as Trueman and Boycott were (are)



"Ah'll sithee"

"and i never punched my fooking wife, either"

Khaosai-Galaxy wrote:

Carbo wrote:

DavidPayne wrote:Henry Cooper would still be world champion but for the split glove, even at 75.

Look he earns a fish supper and a pint every night spouting this stuff. I often wonder whether he';d have been more gracious about everyone had he got the nod versus Bugner retired on his own terms etc.

His bitterness knows no limits.

He only weighed 4stone 9 when he fought Ali you know.

The soft landing for Ali, was a new strand of his argument for being better than GOAT.

He seems to overlook his other drubbings at world-class level. Didn't Ingo Bingo starch him? That wasn't cuts was it?

And his manager ran a mile from chalenging Liston.

And didn't Patterson do to him what Liston did to Patterson? And how much heavier was Patterson than Cooper? Half a stone -- max.

Anyway, I'm not sure he's bitter. I thought the interview came across just fine. He said "I don't like to see this stuff in boxing, but I think Haye's a great fighter who looks good."

Not too much wrong with that, even though I personally thought the T-Shirt was great, from a psychological point of view.

He has very much become boxing's Fred Trueman for the new millennium, no?

"in my day"

"eeeeh i dont know whats going off out theeeyer"

etc

Unfortunately for Cooper he is neither a world class ex pro as Trueman and Boycott are (were), or genuine comedy turns as Trueman and Boycott were (are)



"Ah'll sithee"

I prefer Boycott to Trueman.

BUT!

I don't know if anyone ever used to listen to Hawksbee and Jacobs in the early days of Talk Sport, but they had this section where they'd found a record of Trueman narrating his autobiography, or something.

There was a moment when a toffee nosed, ancient MCC grandee tried to give him some advice when bowling in the nets at Lord's. Weeeelll, Freddie didn't take kindly to that, and promptly asked the chap exactly how many test wickets he had taken. Shocked that the working class Northerner wasn't tugging his forlock, the MCC man give Trueman a sharp rebuke, at which stage Trueman said "I'm afraid I got so angry that I punched this man in the mouth and the poor chap had to be carried away."

Firey.

Ther was another time when the less impressive side of Trueman was on display – when he took the huff at a TMS gag.

It was his turn to read out the letters, and Aggers, or someone, told him to pay special attention to a letter relating to the side-on style Trueman was always rattling on about. According to Trueman – and contrary to evidence – no bowler could swing the ball properly with a chest on action, and the side-on stance was the only way to bowl consistently well. He was always slagging off perfectly good bowlers for their poor action -- poor by no other measurement other than it wasn't classically side on. Anyyywwwwaaaay… Trueman was handed this letter, which was from a listener who had been fired from his club side for using “the side on stance Trueman always recommended”. Trueman read out the letter about how the writer had listened to Trueman and implimented the style to the protests of his team mates and eventual dropping from the team until it got to the bottom and said “So, if any clubs listening in the XYZ area are looking for a wicket keeper…” Cue much public school chortling and a furious Fred. Bloody ridiculous, he probably said.

stujones wrote:Be inclined to agree with this, people seem to forget that in Cooper's era it was very hard to get a title fight, sure there was a bum of the month every now and again - but still would the likes of Frans Botha, Bruce Seldon etc be classed a world champions... would Frank Bruno been given one world title fight, let alone four.

Cooper had one shot at the title, against the greatest at his peak... yet he was a long reigning European champion and beat some fantastic fighters.

I think Cooper has a right to be a little bitter - the BBBoC refused to sanction the WBC when he was offered the chance to challenge Jimmy Ellis for the title. Ellis would have been favourite, but not entirely inconceivable that Henry would have won.... seeing the likes of Bruno, Scott Welch, Danny Williams, Skelton getting world title fights must annoy him a little. Herbie Hide can call himself a two time world champion - hasn't had a win against a top ten heavyweight for my money.

Fair point on the WBC/Ellis, but one other reason why Cooper didn't get multiple title shots is because he lost multiple times. Bruno only lost one non-world title fight. Yes, a weaker era, but if he'd lost as many times as Cooper, including getting KO'd at European level, he would likely only received one shot (at best), too. Plus Cooper had a chance to challenge Liston, and didn't.

Scott Welsh, agreed, an absurd "world title" challenger, but Williams and Skelton were fair enough, and they too only had the one challenge. I don't they were any worse than Brian London, say.

carlos wigan you blind blotto!!! i said "the middle of the round" not the middle of the ring!! cor blimey the mugs on here!!

its just too easy for armchair pundits who were not around at the time to dismiss H.Cooper as rubbish. i was there all through his era and i can inform the young and impressionable that henry was better than you think

charlieb wrote:

overhand_right wrote:Floyd Patterson would have starched David Haye as well, so what's your point?

...given Patterson's china chin, he could well be starched himself.

.... Some china chin if hitters like Oscar Bonavena, Jerry Quarry, Jimmy Ellis and Henry Cooper couldn't knock him out.

Carlos-Wigan wrote:
He was the best heavyweight in western Europe for around 8 years? Big deal!

HA! What's your claim to fame then 'Carlos'?

Sh#t the bed this Brits forum is getting as bad as Current Scene with extreme untenable statements from members who often come across as never having seen fighters other than browse their record on Boxrec or check out a You Tube highlight reel. How long before we start using 'KTFO' in our lexicon and start trading insults over 'your mother'.

Another point regarding Cooper: even at a European level, he didn't have to compete with the Eastern Europeans, because they were all communist at that stage.