John Ruiz Vs Sonny Liston

[BoxBuzz]

How gay is this US auto editing system on this site that
has us saying 'poop' instead of 'shi...t'.

I can not think of to many Ruiz fights where I thought
he came close to entertaining me. But, he would still
be a hard man to beat.

Not surprised Robbie is actually predicting a close fight.

Ruiz was crap. Roy and Toney, two guys who actually knew how to box, beat him easy. Chagaev also decisively outpointed despite people who look at the SD and claim Ruiz was robbed.

Ruiz's ascension was a mix of him having the right promoter and coming up in an era of crap heavyweights. Valuev,Rahman, Oquendo,Johnson etc. all had a terrible time vs Ruiz b/c they were crap too and let themselves get clinched every second by a natural cruiserweight b/c they were lazy fighters. Ruiz is a durable guy who came to fight but he has no special abilities . . he simply exposed other guys who b/c of greater natural talent were overhyped to begin with. He is the poster child of how bad the HW division has become, as he's essentially been a top 10 fighter for the past decade.

Stop with the commons sense already, someone will be offended.

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Ruiz was crap. Roy and Toney, two guys who actually knew how to box, beat him easy. .

- Ah, hah, hah, hah, you really gots some big LUV for them fatboy rolls don't ya.

Jiggles can't even carry Roy's jock strap because he'd eat it first. Jiggles' win over Ruiz lasted all of 2 days until the obvious steroid results come in. Might want to review the fight itself. Much easier for you to rattle on about nothing than to have to actually watch the dreary thing. Not a dime's worth of difference between them except that Ruiz when down after Two Ton stepped on his foot which the ref ruled KD. Compubox numbers were identical.

Jiggles was the sub for Roy after he refused to become part of King's stable and King couldn't even get the the classic trilogy thing going because of ongoing steroid results with Two Ton.

Classic......... 8)

[Hookie74]

Liston fought plenty of good fighters.

C. Wepner KO10
L. Martin LKOby9
M. Ali x2 (LKOby1 and LKOby7)
F. Patterson x2 (KO1 x2)
E. Machen W12
Z. Folley KO3
C. Williams KO2 and KO3
N. Valdes KO3
M. Marshall x3 (W10, KO6, and L8)

even R. Harris (KO1) and J. Summerlin x2 (W8 x2) were decent fighters.

With that said, I do think that Ruiz was better than most will admit. Liston was about an inch shorter but his reach was 6" longer. The weight was pretty close... Ruiz weighed about 20 more Lbs. than Liston in recent years but I don't think height, weight, or reach would be an issue either way.

Liston was the more accurate and powerful puncher. Liston had the much better jab. Both men are skilled in rough tactics.

Ruiz likes to tie guys up and make an ugly fight of it. No figher was ever able to do this to Liston at his best. It took a skilled fighter with speed, good combinations, and stick and move ability like Ali to beat a prime Liston.

I like Liston by decision.

[observer1]

Ruiz win by arm bar.

- I say he gets the DQ on Sonny by crawling about on the canvas in Mr. Popkins' style crying about low blows.

Maybe you could ignore it when Ruiz admitted to intentional Low Blows after the bout like Calzaghe did ?

D

[Robinson]

How gay is this US auto editing system on this site that
has us saying 'poop' instead of 'shi...t'.

I can not think of to many Ruiz fights where I thought
he came close to entertaining me. But, he would still
be a hard man to beat.

Not surprised Robbie is actually predicting a close fight.

Ruiz was crap. Roy and Toney, two guys who actually knew how to box, beat him easy. Chagaev also decisively outpointed despite people who look at the SD and claim Ruiz was robbed.

Ruiz's ascension was a mix of him having the right promoter and coming up in an era of crap heavyweights. Valuev,Rahman, Oquendo,Johnson etc. all had a terrible time vs Ruiz b/c they were crap too and let themselves get clinched every second by a natural cruiserweight b/c they were lazy fighters. Ruiz is a durable guy who came to fight but he has no special abilities . . he simply exposed other guys who b/c of greater natural talent were overhyped to begin with. He is the poster child of how bad the HW division has become, as he's essentially been a top 10 fighter for the past decade.

And how do you imagine this fight playing out mr DF ?

[Robinson]

How gay is this US auto editing system on this site that
has us saying 'poop' instead of 'shi...t'.

I can not think of to many Ruiz fights where I thought
he came close to entertaining me. But, he would still
be a hard man to beat.

Not surprised Robbie is actually predicting a close fight.

Ruiz was crap. Roy and Toney, two guys who actually knew how to box, beat him easy. Chagaev also decisively outpointed despite people who look at the SD and claim Ruiz was robbed.

Ruiz's ascension was a mix of him having the right promoter and coming up in an era of crap heavyweights. Valuev,Rahman, Oquendo,Johnson etc. all had a terrible time vs Ruiz b/c they were crap too and let themselves get clinched every second by a natural cruiserweight b/c they were lazy fighters. Ruiz is a durable guy who came to fight but he has no special abilities . . he simply exposed other guys who b/c of greater natural talent were overhyped to begin with. He is the poster child of how bad the HW division has become, as he's essentially been a top 10 fighter for the past decade.

Stop with the commons sense already, someone will be offended.

How is it common sense Buzz ?
Its opinion....nothing more...nothing less.
You created this thread to bring out the opinions and see how many
would say Liston KO2 or something....and then off course to try and
co erce BRR or myself into arguing our opinions, however stark they
may be from one another or to others on the board.

[Robinson]

Most likely a kiwi that resides here.

Three Kiwis and three Aussies are travelling by train to a rugby game. At the station, the three Aussies each buy a ticket and watch with bewilderment as the three Kiwis buy only a single ticket between them.

"How are three people going to travel on only one ticket?" asks an Aussie.

"Watch and you’ll see", answers the Kiwi.

They all board the train. The Aussies take their respective seats but all three Kiwis cram into a bathroom and close the door behind them. Shortly after the train has departed, the conductor comes around collecting tickets. He knocks on the bathroom door and says, "Ticket please!” The door opens just a crack and a single arm emerges with a ticket in hand. The conductor takes it and moves on.

The Aussies see this and agree it was quite a clever plan. So after the game, the Aussies decide to copy the Kiwis on the return trip and save some money (being clever with money and all that).

When they get to the station, they buy a single ticket for their return trip. To their astonishment, the Kiwis don’t buy a ticket at all. "How are you going to travel without a ticket?" asks one perplexed Aussie. "Watch and you’ll see", answers a Kiwi. When they board the train, the three Aussies cram into a bathroom and the Kiwis cram into another nearby. The train departs. Shortly afterwards, one of the Kiwis leaves and walks over to the bathroom where the Aussies are hiding.

He knocks on the door and says, "Tickets please!"

:) gold.

[HomicideHenry]

Ruiz would be game. I always admired him at least in one aspect, he was willing to fight anyone. His record, overall, isnt that bad considering the roster of men he faced: Holyfield (3x's), Golota, Johnson, Jones, Toney, Tua, Thunder, Valuev, Chagaev, and McCline.

I think, though, his rugh and tumble wrestling/clinching tactics would fail to work on Sonny. Liston was a bull and had tremendous physical streangth, and I don't believe Ruiz could keep Liston in the clinches long enough, or if he even could, his strength would be zapped trying to control a monster like Liston.

Ruiz' chin is questionable, having altered his style after Tua, but he can box fairly decent when he wants to (the first match with Valuev for instance), but I dont think he could get past Liston's long jab or handle Liston's hand speed (review many tapes, Liston had fast hands for being so muscle bound).

I figure, Liston wins by kayo in the 8th round, maybe 10, if Ruiz manages successfully with the clinching.

[Rick Farris]

Continuing our tour through the Lewis Carroll Boxing Training camp, I encourage you all to once again step "through the looking glass" with your tour guide.

How many of our new freshly minted BoxRec top notch analysts will predict a "Hug-a-thon" that will favor an eventual wearing down of the Bear and UD or even KO victory for the esteemed "Quiet Man"?

Shh.....it's happening now, if we are quiet and don't disturb them, we just may be able to listen in and learn what our panel of top shelf experts have to say about this brilliant match up!

Rumor has it that the survivor of this donnybrook goes on to face the winner of the Primo Carnera, Joe Frazier matchup which is sure to be another close one!

Liston would execute durable John Ruiz as quick as he did little Floyd Patterson. No brainer.


-Rick Farris

[Robinson]

Because Patterson, as great as he was, has similar attributes
as Ruiz?

[BoxBuzz]

Robinson....I do not for one moment mean to insinuate that Ruiz is no good. Please don't get that impression, I respect any and all pro's and certainly he has earned respect.

With that said, the gulf between these two skilled pugilists, in my humble opinion, is deep, broad and as vast as the Milky Way. It's just an opinion as you say. For those who think Ruiz would endure...well god bless them each and every one.

And on the very same day Primo Carnera could beat Joe Frazier and not a single Pig but ALL pigs will fly. Because all the laws of sensibility, physics and probabilities will have fled our universe.

This is only an opinion.

Oh and on that very same day that girl that you fancy will find a rich, briliant and handsome suitor.

........These are the odds as I see them.

[Robinson]

While 'anything can happen', I think when discussing
boxing as such as we do 'ad nauseum' according to my
Mrs, we need to make good cases for our opinons.

Now while I am far from being a Ruiz fan, he is in fact
one of the least interesting fighters in the HW div to me,
I do think he would make for a hard and ugly night for
Liston, who while strong and hard hitting will not easily
over power Ruiz.

I think Ruiz does his best to hold on, makes the fight
ugly, wins a round here and there, but ultimately Liston
is the most consistent and his jab, left hook at range,
right hand power and presence warrants him the win.

[dempseyfire]

Ruiz was not a particularly strong guy, how do you conclude that Liston doesn't overpower him? B/c in most of his career the 'quiet man' weighed more?

Liston was a naturally bigger man, faster man, and powerful man.

Ruiz has nothing here in this matchup. Liston is not going to be content with an occasional jab and being grabbed like Rahman was . . .if you look at the tape whenever guys clinched Sonny he worked over their ribs with his free hand(s) overtime. Ruiz would be outboxed and overpowered. Liston's combination of power, strength,athleticism, defensive ability (severely under-rated in Sonny) would be unlike anything Ruiz has had to face. Ruiz would not win 2 minutes let alone a round. And he won't make it past round 5.

The 2nd round would be similar to his 2nd round vs a past-it Golota but Ruiz wouldn't make the bell.

[BoxBuzz]

While 'anything can happen', I think when discussing
boxing as such as we do 'ad nauseum' according to my
Mrs, we need to make good cases for our opinons.

Now while I am far from being a Ruiz fan, he is in fact
one of the least interesting fighters in the HW div to me,
I do think he would make for a hard and ugly night for
Liston, who while strong and hard hitting will not easily
over power Ruiz.

I think Ruiz does his best to hold on, makes the fight
ugly, wins a round here and there, but ultimately Liston
is the most consistent and his jab, left hook at range,
right hand power and presence warrants him the win.

This is an answer that can be supported by the empirical evidence available for review. Though perhaps a bit understated. Congratulations are in order.

Please see Collins and he will see to it that your parking ticket is validated as a reward for this razor sharp bit of analysis.

[BoxBuzz]

Ruiz was not a particularly strong guy, how do you conclude that Liston doesn't overpower him?

Liston was a naturally bigger man, faster man, and powerful man.

Ruiz has nothing here in this matchup. Liston is not going to be content with an occasional jab and being grabbed like Rahman was . . .if you look at the tape whenever guys clinched Sonny he worked over their ribs with his free hand(s) overtime. Ruiz would be outboxed and overpowered. Ruiz would not win 2 minutes let alone a round. And he won't make it past round 5.

Can you believe the caution people use when committing to these? Trust me I'll toss out the Primo Carnera Vs Joe Frazier scenario and we'll get more of the same. I'm tellin ya' Lewis Carroll has left an indelible impression on our forum that can not be expunged.

[Robinson]

While 'anything can happen', I think when discussing
boxing as such as we do 'ad nauseum' according to my
Mrs, we need to make good cases for our opinons.

Now while I am far from being a Ruiz fan, he is in fact
one of the least interesting fighters in the HW div to me,
I do think he would make for a hard and ugly night for
Liston, who while strong and hard hitting will not easily
over power Ruiz.

I think Ruiz does his best to hold on, makes the fight
ugly, wins a round here and there, but ultimately Liston
is the most consistent and his jab, left hook at range,
right hand power and presence warrants him the win.

This is an answer that can be supported by the empirical evidence available for review. Though perhaps a bit understated. Congratulations are in order.

Please see Collins and he will see to it that your parking ticket is validated as a reward for this razor sharp bit of analysis.

I do my best to try and tolerate some peoples serpic approaches on
here. Thats great, im a grown up.

I post what I think and feel based on what I have watched. I have a
pretty extensive library and watch as much of it as I can. I am trying
to be as honest as I can with what I ahve seen. Like I said I favour Liston
heavily, BUT...he is not the absolute ring master that many hearld him
as being.

Ruiz is a pretty awkward guy. I just feel that he makes it a messy night
for Liston. Some guys do this you know....

As for my analysis...atleast I do try to offer some. I do try to make my
opinion more than a simple and absolute "Liston UD" or what have
you.

Is that what posters here would rather ??

How do you see it Buzz? Liston KO 2. Maybe so...

[Robinson]

Ruiz was not a particularly strong guy, how do you conclude that Liston doesn't overpower him? B/c in most of his career the 'quiet man' weighed more?

Liston was a naturally bigger man, faster man, and powerful man.

Ruiz has nothing here in this matchup. Liston is not going to be content with an occasional jab and being grabbed like Rahman was . . .if you look at the tape whenever guys clinched Sonny he worked over their ribs with his free hand(s) overtime. Ruiz would be outboxed and overpowered. Liston's combination of power, strength,athleticism, defensive ability (severely under-rated in Sonny) would be unlike anything Ruiz has had to face. Ruiz would not win 2 minutes let alone a round. And he won't make it past round 5.

The 2nd round would be similar to his 2nd round vs a past-it Golota but Ruiz wouldn't make the bell.

I dont think he is stronger. You know I find it interesting that so many here think
that clinching is a strength based endevour ???
I am far from strong, but I spend alot of my time on the mat, in the cage-ring or
in the gym working well in the clinch with much bigger and stronger guys.
The clinch contray to ignorant belief is a safe place for a lot of weaker guys to be
at times.

I agree with you on most of your conclusion here, I am however saying that I can
see this fight being a bit ugly, far from clean punching and with Ruiz having his
moments at times. Like I have said, I would bet on Liston.

We have the same destination in this one, just a different journey.

[Ezzard]

I think Ruiz is a competent HW. I agree he fought almost everyone and always came into the ring in shape. BUT he's not a top fighter at all. The fact that Roy Jones was prpepared to share a ring with him tells you how much of a threat he really was.

Maybe he can grab, snatch and maul his way through much of the fight but it would probably be best for him if Sonny finds his range earlier and puts him out of the misery he would experience over a longer fight.

Here's an interesting question... Which former champs do we believe Ruiz could beat over 15 rounds?

[Ezzard]

Liston was a naturally bigger man, faster man, and powerful man.

I really do appreciate the arguments around size. It is a big advantage. BUT I can't underline this point enough. Guys weigh more today but often their dimensions are comparable. The difference in weight is down to factors like 12 rounds duration (so less stamina required), different philosophy on training (weights), as well as steroids and other PE's. Without these capable boxers like Byrd would be no bigger than Tunney...

[BroughtonRulesRefuge]

Liston was a naturally bigger man, faster man, and powerful man.

Ruiz has nothing here in this matchup.

- Beam him aboard, Scottie, so we can arrange a clue transplant.

Liston noted for his size and strength in the sub 200 lb era of heavyweights. Ruiz would be noted for size and strength in the same era. They both weighed about the same in their mid 20s which is the first weights we have for Liston unless someone has his amateur weights.

Liston never weighed over 220 until after he threw the 2nd Ali fight. I could agree that Liston seems a bit bigger, stronger, and I know he's more talented with better natural attributes. Ruiz trained down very hard for Jones, 226 officially, 223 unofficially when he stepped into the ring, easily within shouting distance of Liston's top 219 Ali weight.

Pick Sonny until your heart's content, but these silly fudgings of well known facts are starting to become your calling card, "Have Fudge, Will Smudge" U = PCcubed Promotions.

[Rick Farris]

Because Patterson, as great as he was, has similar attributes
as Ruiz?

No. Because Sonny would scare the crap out of him, and hurt him bad with that first thudding jab that would kinda bang a hole in his face. The thudding hook to the ribs would be worse than he'd ever experienced. One round.

-Rick

[Flump]

Can see Ruiz managing to fiddle his way through a few rounds but Liston's jab would be the key to keeping Ruiz from his one-two hold tactic, I see a game but battered Ruiz being pulled out somewhere around the 7th.

[Idisagree]

Liston is way overrated and he would not find an answer for Ruiz style of punching and hugging. Ruiz in a typical boring split or UD decision. Ruiz style of punching and hugging would have been a nightmare for any heavyweight believe it or not. And Ruiz has way more heart than Liston.

[Collins2000]

Liston is way overrated and he would not find an answer for Ruiz style of punching and hugging. Ruiz in a typical boring split or UD decision. Ruiz style of punching and hugging would have been a nightmare for any heavyweight believe it or not. And Ruiz has way more heart than Liston.

Gee, add poor old Sonny to the ever-increasing list of stiffs being exposed in here....

[Goodnight, Irene]

I guess, 'Idisagreewithcommonsense' was too long a username to be implemented?