BoxRec

I've noticed that all the people who say Ali is the best, also think of Tyson as some quasi-god as well.

WHY?!!

I said he was on his A game when he fought Liston and was not when he fought the likes of Cooer. I didn't say he fought them at different stages of his career. My point was, as I explained after in plain English, not that he was better in terms of age, but that he was simply better because he wasn't clowning. Dickhead.

<<insert some sort of disgusting and loud bodily noise here>>

bollocks wrote:Ray Robinson must have been as close to perfection in a fighter during his welter days as is humanly possible

...and Kid Gavilan gave him his toughest fights ever at that weight!

(Hehe, sorry, shameless plug there... )

enrique wrote:ALTHOUGH I SHARE THE BELIEF THAT THE GREAT ONE AT HIS PEAK WAS VERY HARD TO BEAT I DO NOT THINK HE WAS THE GREATEST BOXER. ANGELO DUNDEE HAS STATED THAT ALI'S BOXING FLAW WAS THAT HE DID NOT FIGHT WELL INSIDE -A REASON WHY HE HAD TROUBLES WITH FRAZIER.

FROM A TECHNICAL POINT OF VIEW LOUIS AND CHARLES WERE MORE COMPLETE FIGHTERS THAN ALI.

TRUE, and others... including - hey! I won't say his name. I'll just drop a little hint...

terap wrote:

Ali was knocked down and bloodied by 185-lb Henry Cooper and scored no knockdowns against Cooper

in the fight Ali had JUST BEFORE he fought Liston,

because the fight with 185-pound Cooper was on the level.

The Liston fights were fixes, as is obvious to anyone but flaming Ali shills like yourself.

Three questions, firt Did Ali fornicate your wife or something, what's your fornicating problem?

second, it Is irrelevant that he fought Cooper straight before he fought Liston, I was talking about motivation and a motivated fightert will perform better than when he is unnmotivated.
I made a cup of coffee today in a hurry, I wasn't motivated so I poured in the water, gave it a quick stir and poured it down my throat, and it was okish. Then, in me VERY NEXT bout of thirstiness I made another, but this time I was motivated to brew it up just the way I like it and it was lovely. Just because it was the next one I made doesn't mean it was as average as the previous one.

Third, I agree Liston II was fixed, in the first fight, personally I have Liston four points in front at the time he quit, man he really wasn't even trying to win

You might as well quit arguing with terap bullshitter, if you say anything pro Ali, you'll never get a reasonable conversation from him. Even if all you said was "I liked Ali's trunks style"

Tantum wrote:I've noticed that all the people who say Ali is the best, also think of Tyson as some quasi-god as well.

WHY?!!

Boy, I sure never noticed THAT...I think Ali was one of the greatest heavyweights in history...I DON'T think Tyson is in the same catagory...
Tyson APPEARED headed in that direction in the late '80's, until all hell broke loose in both his ring career and his personal life...

Tyson's life almost seems like a Shakespeare play...profound tragedy at the end...Upset by Buster Douglass, divorce from Robin Givens with televised interviews with Barbara Walters (how could Mike go on that show?), rape conviction, prison time, losing to Holyfield (when Holyfield seemed to be on the way down), ear biting, suspensions, poor behavior in hearings...Jeez, talk about a long drop!!!

Sweet Scientist,
Take out the ear biting and rape conviction and resumes are the same.

Not hardly...

What cobblers. Ali beat

Liston (when he was considered invincible)
Frazier (who was a killer at the time and had only 1 loss)
Foreman (who made Tyson seem benign, and seemed invincible)

For beating these three alone Ali would trump Tyson, but even his second string opponents, (Norton, Patterson, Ellis, Bonavena, Cleveland Williams, Chuvalo, Zora Folley) compare favourably with Tyson's BEST wins.

Former LH Spinks, 40 year old Holmes (coming off a two year retirement with no tune up bouts), Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker, Bonehugger smith......

Tyson also lost to the two best fighters he met in Evander and Lennox, and got whupped silly by Douglas in a mental battle where he unravelled.

Need I go on?

Tyson was always going to be beaten at some point, he was mentally frail.

Ali isn't the greatest fighter of all time, he's the biggest icon, and probably the greatest heavyweight champion ever, but Willie Pepp was a far better fighter, as was Robinson.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:What cobblers. Ali beat

Liston (when he was considered invincible)
Frazier (who was a killer at the time and had only 1 loss)
Foreman (who made Tyson seem benign, and seemed invincible)

For beating these three alone Ali would trump Tyson, but even his second string opponents, (Norton, Patterson, Ellis, Bonavena, Cleveland Williams, Chuvalo, Zora Folley) compare favourably with Tyson's BEST wins.

Former LH Spinks, 40 year old Holmes (coming off a two year retirement with no tune up bouts), Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker, Bonehugger smith......

Tyson also lost to the two best fighters he met in Evander and Lennox, and got whupped silly by Douglas in a mental battle where he unravelled.

Need I go on?

Tyson was always going to be beaten at some point, he was mentally frail.

Ali isn't the greatest fighter of all time, he's the biggest icon, and probably the greatest heavyweight champion ever, but Willie Pepp was a far better fighter, as was Robinson.

I would like to mention.

Liston ( The KO punch did not touch him)
Frazier (effectively a one dimentional Fighter)
Norton (Outboxed Ali 3 times, Norton was Ko'ed in 2 by foreman and 1 by shavers)

On the tyson Side.

Holmes was 38, not 40 and 4 years later and even older version gave Evander Holyfield all the trouble he could handle, No one before or since beat larry up like mike did.

Also Tony Tucker was a reasonable undefeated fighter 35-0 i think, how would i think have fought competitively against ali himself.

Competition is not everything, after all Joe Louis and Marciano all has relativly poor opposition, however both are greats of all time.

I personally Belive ali was a great fighter, but not the greatest of all time, and the message above was simply an alternative view to the one posted above it.

I personally do not think Tyson-ali is as clear cut as you think.

ali is the greatest boxer of all time,no question about that,just watch the show bout him on espn (im not sure if they still show it)but if u do watch it those fights would make u think twice about who really is the greatest ever boxer

The_Power wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:What cobblers. Ali beat

Liston (when he was considered invincible)
Frazier (who was a killer at the time and had only 1 loss)
Foreman (who made Tyson seem benign, and seemed invincible)

For beating these three alone Ali would trump Tyson, but even his second string opponents, (Norton, Patterson, Ellis, Bonavena, Cleveland Williams, Chuvalo, Zora Folley) compare favourably with Tyson's BEST wins.

Former LH Spinks, 40 year old Holmes (coming off a two year retirement with no tune up bouts), Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker, Bonehugger smith......

Tyson also lost to the two best fighters he met in Evander and Lennox, and got whupped silly by Douglas in a mental battle where he unravelled.

Need I go on?

Tyson was always going to be beaten at some point, he was mentally frail.

Ali isn't the greatest fighter of all time, he's the biggest icon, and probably the greatest heavyweight champion ever, but Willie Pepp was a far better fighter, as was Robinson.

I would like to mention.

Liston ( The KO punch did not touch him)
Frazier (effectively a one dimentional Fighter)
Norton (Outboxed Ali 3 times, Norton was Ko'ed in 2 by foreman and 1 by shavers)

On the tyson Side.

Holmes was 38, not 40 and 4 years later and even older version gave Evander Holyfield all the trouble he could handle, No one before or since beat larry up like mike did.

Also Tony Tucker was a reasonable undefeated fighter 35-0 i think, how would i think have fought competitively against ali himself.

Competition is not everything, after all Joe Louis and Marciano all has relativly poor opposition, however both are greats of all time.

I personally Belive ali was a great fighter, but not the greatest of all time, and the message above was simply an alternative view to the one posted above it.

I personally do not think Tyson-ali is as clear cut as you think.

I agree.

Ali was put over by Doug Jones and Henry Cooper.

A prime Tyson exploited opening very quickly (quicker then Jones or Cooper) and hit much, much harder and was a better finisher.

It not outrageous, therefore, to imagine Tyson over Ali by KO.

knockout artist wrote:

The_Power wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:What cobblers. Ali beat

Liston (when he was considered invincible)
Frazier (who was a killer at the time and had only 1 loss)
Foreman (who made Tyson seem benign, and seemed invincible)

For beating these three alone Ali would trump Tyson, but even his second string opponents, (Norton, Patterson, Ellis, Bonavena, Cleveland Williams, Chuvalo, Zora Folley) compare favourably with Tyson's BEST wins.

Former LH Spinks, 40 year old Holmes (coming off a two year retirement with no tune up bouts), Pinklon Thomas, Tony Tucker, Bonehugger smith......

Tyson also lost to the two best fighters he met in Evander and Lennox, and got whupped silly by Douglas in a mental battle where he unravelled.

Need I go on?

Tyson was always going to be beaten at some point, he was mentally frail.

Ali isn't the greatest fighter of all time, he's the biggest icon, and probably the greatest heavyweight champion ever, but Willie Pepp was a far better fighter, as was Robinson.

I would like to mention.

Liston ( The KO punch did not touch him)
Frazier (effectively a one dimentional Fighter)
Norton (Outboxed Ali 3 times, Norton was Ko'ed in 2 by foreman and 1 by shavers)

On the tyson Side.

Holmes was 38, not 40 and 4 years later and even older version gave Evander Holyfield all the trouble he could handle, No one before or since beat larry up like mike did.

Also Tony Tucker was a reasonable undefeated fighter 35-0 i think, how would i think have fought competitively against ali himself.

Competition is not everything, after all Joe Louis and Marciano all has relativly poor opposition, however both are greats of all time.

I personally Belive ali was a great fighter, but not the greatest of all time, and the message above was simply an alternative view to the one posted above it.

I personally do not think Tyson-ali is as clear cut as you think.

I agree.

Ali was put over by Doug Jones and Henry Cooper.

A prime Tyson exploited opening very quickly (quicker then Jones or Cooper) and hit much, much harder and was a better finisher.
It not outrageous, therefore, to imagine Tyson over Ali by KO.

Furthermore joe frazier did win one decision over Ali, and i consider tyson to be faster and have more of a punch in both hands than joe had.

Go, immediately, and watch the Tyson-Douglass fight. Then, watch it again. NOW...visualize the 1967 Muhammad Ali in place of Douglass (who didn't have one third the skills of the '67 Ali)...and tell me again how Tyson would beat him!

Ali would win 11 or 12 rounds out of 15...and the 1967 Ali wouldn't just stand in front of Iron Mike waiting to be hit.

The Ali of the 60s would be far too fast for Tyson and the Ali of the early to mid 70s would be too tough and clever and have too much heart for tyson. Even the aging Ali who fought and beat Shavers would have had too much heart and savvy for Tyson. Tyson is basically a front runner and a bully who is basically not in Ali's class.

Sweet Scientist wrote:Go, immediately, and watch the Tyson-Douglass fight. Then, watch it again. NOW...visualize the 1967 Muhammad Ali in place of Douglass (who didn't have one third the skills of the '67 Ali)...and tell me again how Tyson would beat him!

Ali would win 11 or 12 rounds out of 15...and the 1967 Ali wouldn't just stand in front of Iron Mike waiting to be hit.

You accuse others of being unobjective, however with ali, you seem just as unobjective.

Watch Jones and Cooper both hit ali, watch floyd patterson also hit ali.

Ali was not unhittable even at his best!!!

and mike has a chance against anyone he can hit, i am not saying mike would win, however, it would not be a 12-3 beating which you invisage.

bullshitter wrote:Ali-greatest heavy of all time, maybe Tyson would've beat him.

what a stupid post!! got a lot to learn about boxing matey.

The_Power wrote:
Watch Jones and Cooper both hit ali, watch floyd patterson also hit ali

With all due respect...

Why not watch Ali hit Cooper, Patterson, & Jones...

Do you recall what Cooper looked like after BOTH fights?
Do you recall how one-sided the Patterson fight was?
Only the Jones fight was competitive...the other two were not, except for the Cooper left hook at the end of the 4th of the 6/18/63 bout...which had a degree of luck to it...you'll notice he (Cooper) never did it again...

Hey guys, I only started this thread to piss off terap. Now that he is gone, you can stop posting here. Thanks for the support!

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