BoxRec

I think there has to be some perspective here.

Ali fought everyone from his era. There aren’t many boxers you can say that about.

Sometimes I think Broughton spends too much time on his juvenile sentence structure and the fake contrarian forum personality he’s cultivating….but for once I think there might be something to what he’s saying. I don’t think Ali ducked Foreman but I’ve heard it said from many sources that Ali’s team were not keen on a rematch. I also read an account from one of Foreman’s team that they told George not to clean Young up too soon as they were sure he wouldn’t get the fight if he looked too good. Foreman and his handlers were convinced Ali were trying not to grant a rematch. It’s all speculation. Young beat Foreman and got the title shot, but Lyle lost to Young and got a title shot! There’s no logic to it and no proof either way.

Who would have won a rematch would have been down to timing. I feel Ali’s style helped him gobble up punchers like Foreman and Liston. I think that even a past it Ali would have been a massive hurdle for George. I think George did great in his comeback for a man of his age. I also think he was a formidable puncher but I’m not sure someone with such glaring weaknesses in his game should get rated as highly as he does.

George may have missed out on his rematch with Ali but Holmes didn’t even get a first fight with Foreman…

You could argue Foreman deserved a rematch but it was by no means a Patterson style ducking of Liston, Folley or Machen. Foreman spent over a year out of the ring, then when he came back he had to climb off the deck twice v Lyle, beat up what was left of Smokin' Joe post Manila and then he beat three journeymen. If he'd beaten Young then yes, he was unquestionably due a shot, but he didn't.

The other point is that in his fight with Ali he was knocked out, there was no controversial decision, so Foreman had to work his way back, arguably he didn't.

And I think Ali beats him anytime up to 78'.

SteveO wrote: Ali had agreed to fight the winner of the George Foreman-Jimmy Young contest. Well we know what happened there and the rest is history............

- Tell you what Stevo, I'm going to ignore the piffle of your underlings and merely add on to the relevant facts I've already mentioned.

You say Ali agreed to fight the winner of Foreman/Young. Big whiffo for you Stevo. Ali fought Alfredo The Great Evangelista, 2 months later. Probably a sympathy fight to bolster the Spanish great after he'd been upset by Zanon The Magnifico in Spain a month before.

Norton was coming off a spectacular KO over the undefeated highly ranked Dwayne Bobick. So, who does Ali fight after the Great Alfredo? Well, Ernie Shavers, apparently on the strength of his clubfighter's classic with Roy Williams, but not Jimmy who has to make do with Jody Ballard.

Now, pay attention here Stevo, the WBC orders a title eliminator between Norton and Young for the privilege of fighting Ali which Norton takes by split. Does Ali fight the winner, or even the loser? Of course not, he fights 6-0-1 LH gold medalist Leon of Neon.

I know there's some footage out there in the day of Howard cornering Ali about Foreman, but you simply cannot state that he ever agreed to fight Foreman with certainty. He merely entertains the option out of the necessity of answering badgering interviewers.

Foreman was sent to Puerto Rico in a tropical clime and told for the umpteenth time that he had to win this fight to have a shot at Ali. He was 5-0, 5 KOs in his comeback. He was thrown into a 21' ring with thin canvas, what Cosell said was a huge fast track favoring speedy boxers. The ref warns him a half dozen times for pushing the clinching Young away before 3 rds is over and finally deducted a point when Foreman in disgust pushes the clinched around his waist Young to his knees with his left hand as he moves out of clinch range. Young has been whining to the ref every 30 sec and Howard notes how Young has the ref in his corner for the fight.

People blame the KD for the defeat, but there was no way Foreman was ever gonna look good against Young under these circumstances and the scoring much too wide for the KD to swing anything. Team Ali had made it clear they were never keen on the Foreman or Young rematch, nor were they keen on fighting Norton for a 4th time, so it ain't all about George.

It's fine if you want to pick Ali to win the rematch, but no need to revise history to make your case.

Ezzard wrote:I think there has to be some perspective here.

Ali fought everyone from his era. There aren’t many boxers you can say that about.

Sometimes I think Broughton spends too much time on his juvenile sentence structure and the fake contrarian forum personality he’s cultivating….but for once I think there might be something to what he’s saying. I don’t think Ali ducked Foreman but I’ve heard it said from many sources that Ali’s team were not keen on a rematch. I also read an account from one of Foreman’s team that they told George not to clean Young up too soon as they were sure he wouldn’t get the fight if he looked too good. Foreman and his handlers were convinced Ali were trying not to grant a rematch. It’s all speculation. Young beat Foreman and got the title shot, but Lyle lost to Young and got a title shot! There’s no logic to it and no proof either way.

Who would have won a rematch would have been down to timing. I feel Ali’s style helped him gobble up punchers like Foreman and Liston. I think that even a past it Ali would have been a massive hurdle for George. I think George did great in his comeback for a man of his age. I also think he was a formidable puncher but I’m not sure someone with such glaring weaknesses in his game should get rated as highly as he does.

George may have missed out on his rematch with Ali but Holmes didn’t even get a first fight with Foreman…

Flump wrote:You could argue Foreman deserved a rematch but it was by no means a Patterson style ducking of Liston, Folley or Machen. Foreman spent over a year out of the ring, then when he came back he had to climb off the deck twice v Lyle, beat up what was left of Smokin' Joe post Manila and then he beat three journeymen. If he'd beaten Young then yes, he was unquestionably due a shot, but he didn't.

The other point is that in his fight with Ali he was knocked out, there was no controversial decision, so Foreman had to work his way back, arguably he didn't.

And I think Ali beats him anytime up to 78'.

A pair of excellent posts. I appreciate your analysis. Thanks guys.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:Ali fought Alfredo The Great Evangelista, 2 months later. Norton was coming off a spectacular KO over the undefeated highly ranked Dwayne Bobick. So, who does Ali fight after the Great Alfredo? Well, Ernie Shavers. The WBC orders a title eliminator between Norton and Young for the privilege of fighting Ali which Norton takes by split. Does Ali fight the winner, or even the loser? Of course not, he fights 6-0-1 LH gold medalist Leon of Neon.

I guess Ali said he'd fight the Foreman-Young winner expecting Foreman to win that contest. Ali had already fought Young the previous year and nobody wanted to see a replay of their messy, boring contest. The big money was in a Foreman rematch and Ali was coming to the end of his career.
The Ali-Evangelista fight had already been signed before the Foreman-Young fight took place.
Ali took a dangerous fight against hard hitting Earnie Shavers who deserved his title shot.
Of course Ali did not expect to lose against Leon Spinks but then had the opportunity to try and regain the title for a third time before retiring.
Spinks was stripped of the WBC title for agreeing to the Ali fight instead of his mandatory against Ken Norton - so Norton fought Holmes for the vacant belt.
The Ali-Spinks rematch was for the WBA and Lineal title.
I guess the next fight for Ali would have been a unification bout against Norton but father time had caught up with him and he did the right thing by retiring.
There, everything is sorted now..............

SteveO wrote:

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:Ali fought Alfredo The Great Evangelista, 2 months later. Norton was coming off a spectacular KO over the undefeated highly ranked Dwayne Bobick. So, who does Ali fight after the Great Alfredo? Well, Ernie Shavers. The WBC orders a title eliminator between Norton and Young for the privilege of fighting Ali which Norton takes by split. Does Ali fight the winner, or even the loser? Of course not, he fights 6-0-1 LH gold medalist Leon of Neon.

I guess Ali said he'd fight the Foreman-Young winner expecting Foreman to win that contest. Ali had already fought Young the previous year and nobody wanted to see a replay of their messy, boring contest. The big money was in a Foreman rematch and Ali was coming to the end of his career.
The Ali-Evangelista fight had already been signed before the Foreman-Young fight took place.
Ali took a dangerous fight against hard hitting Earnie Shavers who deserved his title shot.
Of course Ali did not expect to lose against Leon Spinks but then had the opportunity to try and regain the title for a third time before retiring.
Spinks was stripped of the WBC title for agreeing to the Ali fight instead of his mandatory against Ken Norton - so Norton fought Holmes for the vacant belt.
The Ali-Spinks rematch was for the WBA and Lineal title.
I guess the next fight for Ali would have been a unification bout against Norton but father time had caught up with him and he did the right thing by retiring.
There, everything is sorted now..............

Stop messing with BRR's head.

He isn't interested in what really happened.

"...George may have missed out on his rematch with Ali but Holmes didn’t even get a first fight with Foreman…" - Ezzard

Funny things like that can happen when you are the same age as George, but turn pro four years behind him. Foreman was actually champ before Holmes had even dispensed with his headgear for fights. Granted, Foreman retired young & out-of-sorts, but Holmes should've made himself known earlier. Who had he beaten to warrant a fight with Foreman in 1977 (when George retired) anyway?

Zip. That's who.

In defence of Holmes, it was hard for him and other up and coming
HW's to break into consideration and the big time around that time.
This era you had some good names, both 'new' and from the 60's.

Holmes matured nicely and as we know went on to have a good
career. It would have been good to see him and Foreman fight
around '77 or 78 (had Foreman not retired). But that never happened.

The real shame came in the early 1990s when both were on the
post title fight era of their come backs and could have made good
money and put on a good show for us all.

Robinson wrote:In defence of Holmes, it was hard for him and other up and coming
HW's to break into consideration and the big time around that time.
This era you had some good names, both 'new' and from the 60's.

Holmes matured nicely and as we know went on to have a good
career. It would have been good to see him and Foreman fight
around '77 or 78 (had Foreman not retired). But that never happened.

The real shame came in the early 1990s when both were on the
post title fight era of their come backs and could have made good
money and put on a good show for us all.

This is true, however, at the end of the day, Holmes put himself behind the eight-ball making his pro debut at twenty-four, in an era where Heavies routinely entered the pro ranks between the ages of eighteen & twenty.

With the late start, Holmes' development on the scene was seriously set-back. By Foreman's retirement, my initial statement stands --- Holmes had bested no one to justify a match with the former World's Heavyweight Champion (I know that wasn't your assertion, Kym, just making my point), but I think we can agree it would've been one helluva close-run thing.

On the one hand, Foreman was out-of-form & psychologically a lesser man than in previous years, & in Holmes, he faced a significant style disadvantage. Holmes was probably hungrier, too --- being on the way up, & having a chance to cement his name in beating an ex-Champion only Ali had previously defeated.

Other side of the coin, though --- Foreman had been there & done that, Holmes hadn't. Holmes, even at his peak a year or two following Foreman's retirement, had a lot of trouble with guys who actively applied pressure, & pulled him from his safety net (the long jab). Foreman would be right on top of him if he could, & Holmes hadn't yet faced anyone even close to having Foreman's power (sans the otherwise-lousy Shavers), ferocity, experience, or World-class finishing ability. Could he cope at this stage?

I don't know who would win, but I can see debates for both sides around late-1977. Incidentally, if both were at their peaks (Foreman '73-74, Holmes '78-82) I'd feel the same way --- another near-pick 'em matching.

SteveO wrote:I guess Ali said he'd fight the Foreman-Young winner expecting Foreman to win that contest. Ali had already fought Young the previous year and nobody wanted to see a replay of their messy, boring contest. The big money was in a Foreman rematch and Ali was coming to the end of his career.
The Ali-Evangelista fight had already been signed before the Foreman-Young fight took place.
Ali took a dangerous fight against hard hitting Earnie Shavers who deserved his title shot.
Of course Ali did not expect to lose against Leon Spinks but then had the opportunity to try and regain the title for a third time before retiring.
Spinks was stripped of the WBC title for agreeing to the Ali fight instead of his mandatory against Ken Norton - so Norton fought Holmes for the vacant belt.
The Ali-Spinks rematch was for the WBA and Lineal title.
I guess the next fight for Ali would have been a unification bout against Norton but father time had caught up with him and he did the right thing by retiring.
There, everything is sorted now..............

- Stevo, well sorted now that you're coming around to my position that you have nothing definitive showing Ali was going to fight Foreman other than some obscure possibilities. Fight was never in team Ali's crystal ball.

As far as Young's popularity goes, maybe you should review the tapes of his Ali and Foreman fights. Crowds went nuts over him and the public definitely wanted the Ali rematch.

As to Evangelista, that bout had to have been signed after it was announced Foreman and Young would be fighting. Why Alfredo, Stevo? Guy was nothing but a Spaniard fighting other Spaniards in Spain, not even the Spanish champ that I can see. People probably thought he was a pasta dish.

Not sure how much Shavers deserved a crack given that he'd been exposed almost every time he stepped up, but it's more credible than Evanglista, Dunn, Coopman, Wepner. We know Ali typically needed to reset after fights with tough opposition, yet he had 3 yrs to accept an offer to fight George and we know both were getting offers every month. By the record, George was gungho whereas Ali was putting off the largest fight in history.

Ali's retirement? Stevo, he didn't stay retired. Came back twice in ignoble efforts.

Finally, off topic, but related to the notion of how some fights don't get made, it's my understanding that the Dino Dennis match with Foreman was a sub for Holmes/Foreman after Holmes tore his bicep in the Williams fight and had to take the rest of the year off. Next year Holmes is on the undercard of Foreman/Young fighting a no hoper. He'd beat Williams before Ernie, yet Ernie gets the call.

The notion of Holmes' late start is nonsense. He'd been in Ali's camp as a sparring partner since 71 and managed/promoted by King. Guy was mature with the best training that he got paid for with more inside connections than the other 99% of the heavies out there, but mysteriously absent until 78.

Okay I give up - there's just no point!
I think I'll stop while I'm ahead :-)

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote: Almost every interview Foreman gave from post fight forward he's not only gung ho and ready to rumble, but he's pushing the rematch.

No he wasn't, he said himself he wanted time off to work with a new trainer and learn new things. Hence the reason he didn't have a pro fight for more than a year afterward.

How do you consider disappearing into semi-obscurity for a full year and allowing your ranking to plummet as "pushing" for a rematch?

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:From the post fight to the last interview before retiring, Ali is loathe to even mention his name and almost always noncommittal, preferring to talk about retirement or his next fight, not Foreman.

You mean like when he sat ringside for his 5-man exhibition and continually kept calling him out to his face?


Talk about just making shit up.

My2sense, there are a few Ali haters in here who can't see past the end of their noses. BRR is one. DaveV is another. And dear old GI wants to be one but he doesn't have the nads to actually come out of the closet completely. He spends his days sniping then starts whining when called on his posts...

Oooh, I might have upset poor old sensitive GI again. (How fekkin sad).

My2Sense wrote:

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:From the post fight to the last interview before retiring, Ali is loathe to even mention his name and almost always noncommittal, preferring to talk about retirement or his next fight, not Foreman.

You mean like when he sat ringside for his 5-man exhibition and continually kept calling him out to his face?

Talk about just making poop up.

- Pity about your poopy drawers. Ali is primarily calling George a bum, but at one point gets even more agitated and starts screaming how George is never gonna get a rematch.

Probably more than a few racial epithets thrown in and maybe Ali does also threaten to whoop George since much of his rant can't be heard on camera, but at no time talking with Cosell or within mike range does he offer to fight George. Very strange night by all the parties involved. George and Cosell had to be there, but Ali?

We had the same denial by the same types over the Cooney/Holmes scoring where some refused to believe that Gerry was ahead on the cards before the point deductions took their toll. There was even a special broadcast of the fight with Larry Merchant interviewing Holmes in the studio the next week about being behind in the scoring with round by round scoring provided..

Whatever, the tin foil beanie brigade is gonna be on the march regardless..

Collins2000 wrote:My2sense, there are a few Ali haters in here who can't see past the end of their noses. BRR is one. DaveV is another. And dear old GI wants to be one but he doesn't have the nads to actually come out of the closet completely. He spends his days sniping then starts whining when called on his posts...

Oooh, I might have upset poor old sensitive GI again. (How fekkin sad).

The distinction between criticism & the destruction of the Ali juggernaut is beyond your grasp, Collins. In truth, it always has been.

Is this a Collins training video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSoHHZCRUc8

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:My2sense, there are a few Ali haters in here who can't see past the end of their noses. BRR is one. DaveV is another. And dear old GI wants to be one but he doesn't have the nads to actually come out of the closet completely. He spends his days sniping then starts whining when called on his posts...

Oooh, I might have upset poor old sensitive GI again. (How fekkin sad).

The distinction between criticism & the destruction of the Ali juggernaut is beyond your grasp, Collins. In truth, it always has been.

Criticism?

Right.

You claim Ali is the best (or 2nd best) heavy ever yet constantly whine that probably his greatest win was bought and paid for under the table.

Seems a bit odd to me, mate.

John Galt wrote:Is this a Collins training video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSoHHZCRUc8

Dave, while I'm discussing things with GI, did you think you'd crawl out from under your rock and take a few shots?

Unfortunately, Dave, you are too feeble-minded and limp-wristed to have any impact here.

Tell me again your fantasy about training fighters. I love a good laugh.

Collins, I just want to know if that is you on the vid?

I like your "Rocky" push ups on the vid, and you shadow box exactly the way I would think you would from reading your posts. If that is you on the video, you post exactly the way you look and act.

John Galt wrote:Collins, I just want to know if that is you on the vid?

I like your "Rocky" push ups on the vid, and you shadow box exactly the way I would think you would from reading your posts. If that is you on the video, you post exactly the way you look and act.

Dave, to be honest I didn't look at the video. The first one you posted I wasted 2 minutes of my life looking at it and saw it was nothing to do with the topic at hand. So I assumed this one would be something daft too. Was I wrong?

I have never put any vids of myself on the net. I hope that answers your question. Nor do I waste my life scouring Youtube sans pantalon each evening.

Is there any footage of you? Perhaps in the corner of one of these imaginary fighters you 'train'?

Collins2000 wrote:Dave, to be honest I didn't look at the video. The first one you posted I wasted 2 minutes of my life looking at it and saw it was nothing to do with the topic at hand. So I assumed this one would be something daft too. Was I wrong?

I have never put any vids of myself on the net. I hope that answers your question. Nor do I waste my life scouring Youtube sans pantalon each evening.

Is there any footage of you? Perhaps in the corner of one of these imaginary fighters you 'train'?

LOL, Collins, I am thinking it really is you in the video. The lady doth protest too much, methinks. I would have thought you were much older, but the music and the boxing technique is you. Maybe you can enter the TPB series?

John Galt wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:Dave, to be honest I didn't look at the video. The first one you posted I wasted 2 minutes of my life looking at it and saw it was nothing to do with the topic at hand. So I assumed this one would be something daft too. Was I wrong?

I have never put any vids of myself on the net. I hope that answers your question. Nor do I waste my life scouring Youtube sans pantalon each evening.

Is there any footage of you? Perhaps in the corner of one of these imaginary fighters you 'train'?

LOL, Collins, I am thinking it really is you in the video. The lady doth protest too much, methinks. I would have thought you were much older, but the music and the boxing technique is you. Maybe you can enter the TPB series?

I still haven't looked at the video, Dave.

What's it about?

How did you find it?

So, you're a fan of Shakespeare, Dave? And here was me thinking you read nothing heavier than Archie comics.

I bet this is what you thought when discovered the first of my posts. It's very apt given that I was born in Rotherham:

Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious summer by this sun of York

Do you like it?

"Criticism?

Right.

You claim Ali is the best (or 2nd best) heavy ever yet constantly whine that probably his greatest win was bought and paid for under the table.

Seems a bit odd to me, mate." - Collins

Wrong, but, in this instance, I don't blame you. I know any inference less-than-flattering about Ali sends you reaching for the, 'Post Reply' button too quickly to bother with minor things such as, oh, I don't know --- reading what other people say, idiot.

I have said --- all along, watch carefully now --- I would not be especially surprised if Ali-Liston I was a fix, watching the film. I didn't say it was a fix. I didn't say it was a fix in my opinion. I said, I have no legitimate cause to consider it not on the level, so I genuinely assume it was legitimate. Simply, if it one day came out the bout was paid for, I wouldn't be shocked.

I'd be sure to send a paramedic around to yours, though. They very thought enough to leave you hyper-ventilating, is it?

Your behaviour reminds me of a small child who won't be told Father Christmas isn't real. Just slam the palms to your head, Collins, & scream, "The Greatest!" until the voices of conjecture & debate disappear

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"Criticism?

Right.

You claim Ali is the best (or 2nd best) heavy ever yet constantly whine that probably his greatest win was bought and paid for under the table.

Seems a bit odd to me, mate." - Collins

Wrong, but, in this instance, I don't blame you. I know any inference less-than-flattering about Ali sends you reaching for the, 'Post Reply' button too quickly to bother with minor things such as, oh, I don't know --- reading what other people say, idiot.

I have said --- all along, watch carefully now --- I would not be especially surprised if Ali-Liston I was a fix, watching the film. I didn't say it was a fix. I didn't say it was a fix in my opinion. I said, I have no legitimate cause to consider it not on the level, so I genuinely assume it was legitimate. Simply, if it one day came out the bout was paid for, I wouldn't be shocked.

I'd be sure to send a paramedic around to yours, though. They very thought enough to leave you hyper-ventilating, is it?

Your behaviour reminds me of a small child who won't be told Father Christmas isn't real. Just slam the palms to your head, Collins, & scream, "The Greatest!" until the voices of conjecture & debate disappear

For a fight you consider to be on the level, you love to keep talking about it being a fix.

Seems a bit mixed up to me, mate.

I just said I don't consider it a fix. In your latest inattentive post, you've inferred once more I, "love to keep talking about it being a fix."

Did you mean a possible fix? Or have you reached instantly for that, 'Post Reply' button once more?

Why bother? You're desperately in love with the man, myth, aura --- whatever --- & I haven't the powers of persuasion (is there anyone out there who does?) to show you what a shining example of Ali-induced cheerleading you are