BoxRec

Collins2000 wrote:

Ox Baker wrote:Competition can be a collective noun. When I joined this website, it did not occur to me that I would have to explain the finer aspects of the English language to its members.

Unfortunately Ox, even collectively those fellows don't make incredible competition.

Okay, the second-best resume in the history of the division, despite Chavez being past his prime. Happier?

Ox Baker wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:

Ox Baker wrote:Competition can be a collective noun. When I joined this website, it did not occur to me that I would have to explain the finer aspects of the English language to its members.

Unfortunately Ox, even collectively those fellows don't make incredible competition.

Okay, the second-best resume in the history of the division, despite Chavez being past his prime. Happier?

That's more like it Ox!

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

ben k wrote:Chavez at any weight. Pac is being severly over rated by his wins over 2 weight drained fighters. Lets see how he goes against SSM or PBF before puting him up there with the elite.

- Ben, of course Manny is being overrated from recent victories.

No different from JCC being overrated from being legend. That's the nature of the beast, just like your assertion of Chavez at any weight.

How do you think Chavez would do against SSM and Mr. Money at welter?

We know in his era he topped out at 140, and now Manny has to beat SSM and MM to be considered as having any chance against Chavez?

Sounds silly to me.

I picked JCC and im sticking to it. Pac is chinny and Chavez's workrate and chin would be to much for Pac.
Oscar and Ricky were severly weight drained in there fights and it flattered Pac's resume. If Pac fought the Hatton that took on Tszyu id say it would have been a much tougher fight. Also if Oscar was a few years younger and in the form he was around the SMM fight he would have KOd Pac.
Roach is picking the best fights for Pac at the ideal weights to make his Opponents struggle. If he fights SMM at 143 then it won't prove much either as Shane struggles to make 147 now days and at 37 years of age the Pac camp know this.

I don't think JCC could beat Either SMM or PBF at 147 either but id think he would do a lot better than Pac.

ben k wrote: I picked JCC and im sticking to it. Pac is chinny and Chavez's workrate and chin would be to much for Pac.
Oscar and Ricky were severly weight drained in there fights and it flattered Pac's resume.

- Ben, my son, nobody objects to you picking Chavez.

The notion of Manny being chinny would be the silliest thing I heard today had you not followed it up with Ricky being weight drained.

Be sorta like me claiming Chavez was a quitter and Taylor was weight drained.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

ben k wrote: I picked JCC and im sticking to it. Pac is chinny and Chavez's workrate and chin would be to much for Pac.
Oscar and Ricky were severly weight drained in there fights and it flattered Pac's resume.

- Ben, my son, nobody objects to you picking Chavez.

The notion of Manny being chinny would be the silliest thing I heard today had you not followed it up with Ricky being weight drained.

Be sorta like me claiming Chavez was a quitter and Taylor was weight drained.

Hatton looked horribly weight drained at the weigh-in. I mean, he had to drop 40 or 50 pounds for that fight.

Ox Baker wrote:Hatton looked horribly weight drained at the weigh-in. I mean, he had to drop 40 or 50 pounds for that fight.

- Big Duh for ya Ox. Hatton's infamous for ballooning Duran style between fights, hence his fatten suit.

Yer on a roll Big Guy.

... so you're suggesting he wasn't weight drained? He looked worse at that weigh-in than I'd ever seen him.

Diamond WEAPON wrote:Chavez beats him at any weight. Julio was in his prime right at the tail-end of his 130 campaign through to his early years at 140. Pacquiao hasn't ever fought anyone above 130 who can outmatch him in any way physically, but Chavez would. JCC also would be able to take Pacquiao's punches without issue and draw the brawl-loving Pacquiao into a war which he would certainly lose. Even a faded Chavez wouldn't allow Pernell Whitaker to beat him clearly enough to actually take the decision in their fight, and Pacquiao isn't as good as Whitaker.

I second that....Chavez would be too much for the Pac Man at any weight class.

ben k wrote:Pac is chinny

LAWL

Does that mean Marquez is the definitive glass jawed fighter of this era?

[/quote]
Oscar and Ricky were severly weight drained in there fights and it flattered Pac's resume. If Pac fought the Hatton that took on Tszyu id say it would have been a much tougher fight.[/quote]

Regarding Ricky, he fought his previous 2 fights and all but 2 fights in his entire career at Light Welterweight. Pac is not responsible for Ricky's training prior to the fight. Pac fought a Light Welterweight as his natural weight and destroyed him. Can't ask more than that!

Regarding Oscar, going into the fight with Pac he was still the man in terms of generating fan interest and $. No one dictates the terms to Oscar. Obviously, he thought he could fight at 147 without any problems and that his natural size advantage over Pac would lead him to victory. For whatever reason, he fought horribly. Again, Pac is not responsible for training Oscar or for the condition Oscar showed up in on fight night. Pac fought above his weight class and destroyed a naturally bigger man. Can't ask more than that.

Regarding JCC and Pac, say at 140 - it would be a very exciting fight. Their talents are very different. I could see JCC wearing Pac down but I could also see Pac being too fast and since he is a much more powerful puncher than Sweetpea or Meldrick Taylor, doing a number on JCC. Who knows?

I think manny wins easily at 130. Chavez was solid there, but he was much better at 35 & 40. The fights would be tougher there, but I would have to side with Pac in all 3 of them.

Not a doubt in my mind about 130, maybe a stoppage.

Edit: i'm going to pretend I didn't read someone talking about Chavez doing well against and backing up Pea. That was in the 10-2 range and Whitaker had Julio afraid to punch, much less press.

chavez in a brutal fight at any of the weights mentioned

Pacquiao would take the early rounds easily with his blinding speed. But sooner or later Chavez would get to him. Pacquiao has a good chin, but I dunno if he ever faced a relentless body puncher like Chavez. Once Pacquiao fades, its Chavez's fight. If Pacman has a better chin than expected he might squeak out a razor thin decision.

Julio Cesar Chavez Sr. vs Manny Pacquiao who would win?

I'll pick Chavez at any weight. No doubt Chavez had trouble with Meldrick Taylor's hand speed. If you judge a fighter on the quantity of his punches you're likely to go with a fighter like Taylor, if you go with Quality of the punch than Chavez and fighters like him are your guys. The proof as they say, is in the pudding, Taylor was never the same after the Chavez fight, that wouldn't have changed even if Richard Steele had let the fight continue. The truth is, while Taylor was busy scoring points, Chavez was busy kicking his butt. Steele did right stopping that fight. Throughout the fight, whether you agree that the fight should have been stopped or not, Chavez kept his cool, never got discouraged and never wavered from his goal, which was to hurt and stop Taylor.

Pacquiao on the other hand was beaten by Erik Morelas in the first of their three fights, and Morales was already winding down his great career, Pacquiao also recieved a draw and a split decision against Juan Manuel Marquez, and you can easily make a case that Marquez won both fights, but regardless, they were close. Pacquiao has been ducking Marquez ever since. There has to be a reason.

Beating Oscar De La Hoya at this point in De La Hoya's career doesn't really amount to much, neither does beating Hatton, a fine fighter to be sure but with limitations.

Chavez had a cast Iron chin and skull and did not get stopped until late in his career, suffering TKO's from both Oscar De la Hoya , twice, one on cuts, with Chavez unable to continue and the other in the second fight with Chavez unable to answer the bell for the ninth round. Pacquiao was KO'ed twice; in his 12th fight with Rustico Torrecampo, and in his 28th fight against against Medgoen Singsurat. He can be stopped.

I'm making this comparison not to degrade Pacquiao but because the question was asked, who would win between the two. These are my reasons but as in any fight, circumstances change and there are always the intangibles, still given what I know I'll pick Chavez by a late round KO.