BoxRec

Irene, you are such a shrill little girl. Maybe my post sailed over your head? I pointed out that Holyfield was over 38 years old in all of the fights you mentioned. Are you disputing that? Wasn't your point that Holyfield didn't look that good in the losses you mentioned which all happened between the ages of 38-46? If that wasn't your point what was it?

Ali faced Holmes at 38 ?

John Galt wrote:Irene, you are such a shrill little girl. Maybe my post sailed over your head? I pointed out that Holyfield was over 38 years old in all of the fights you mentioned. Are you disputing that? Wasn't your point that Holyfield didn't look that good in the losses you mentioned which all happened between the ages of 38-46? If that wasn't your point what was it?

Jesus H Christ.

Still not capturing the picture? Let me spell out what should be fairly obvious --- Gregor mentioned a bunch of fights in which Ali looked, to varying degrees, vulnerable. Not a one of those occurred while Ali was at his peak, so I made a point by doing the same with Holyfield.

This is the part where you re-read my to-&-fro with Gregor, & sigh, "Ohhh, I get it." As a sidenote, I notice Collins & the rest of his boyfriends who are so fond of labelling me an Ali hater instantly vanish in any thread where I'm found defending or praising him. Time & again. What a joke.

Stop the hate GI...or so help me....

Goodnight, Irene wrote: As a sidenote, I notice Collins & the rest of his boyfriends who are so fond of labelling me an Ali hater instantly vanish in any thread where I'm found defending or praising him. Time & again. What a joke.

Irene, stop crying out for me to come in and kick your flabby arse. You whined like a bitch that I was stalking you in that other thread and yet here you are calling out for me again.

By the way, I notice from the info to the right of your posts that you are in Sydney. Me too. So if you fancy meeting up and whining to my face, let me know.

aside from frazier an norton
lenox lewis, big, strong, skilled, good all round, might give ali troubles

acctualy in all honesty, i cant see the 70/s version of ali beating lewis, but i think the 60's ali would be to quick

Collins2000 wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote: As a sidenote, I notice Collins & the rest of his boyfriends who are so fond of labelling me an Ali hater instantly vanish in any thread where I'm found defending or praising him. Time & again. What a joke.

Irene, stop crying out for me to come in and kick your flabby arse. You whined like a bitch that I was stalking you in that other thread and yet here you are calling out for me again.

By the way, I notice from the info to the right of your posts that you are in Sydney. Me too. So if you fancy meeting up and whining to my face, let me know.

Im in Sydney in a few weeks. LOL each other in person !

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

John Galt wrote:Irene, you are such a shrill little girl. Maybe my post sailed over your head? I pointed out that Holyfield was over 38 years old in all of the fights you mentioned. Are you disputing that? Wasn't your point that Holyfield didn't look that good in the losses you mentioned which all happened between the ages of 38-46? If that wasn't your point what was it?

Jesus H Christ.

Still not capturing the picture? Let me spell out what should be fairly obvious --- Gregor mentioned a bunch of fights in which Ali looked, to varying degrees, vulnerable. Not a one of those occurred while Ali was at his peak, so I made a point by doing the same with Holyfield.

This is the part where you re-read my to-&-fro with Gregor, & sigh, "Ohhh, I get it." As a sidenote, I notice Collins & the rest of his boyfriends who are so fond of labelling me an Ali hater instantly vanish in any thread where I'm found defending or praising him. Time & again. What a joke.

Well I'm not a boyfirend of Collins.
I give you credit for not being as ridiculaus as Galt/DaveV17 (and a few others) when it come to Ali.
At least you don't have to change your screen name becasue you lose creibility with constant stupid anti-ali comments.

However, you aren't a hater? Seriously? You pretty much gave yourself away with your Vietnam comments awhile back.

Now just becasue you don't like someome doesn't mean that you can't be objective at all toward their fighting abilities.
However, it's pretty obvious that when it comes to Ali you aren't that objective. (Though again not as bad as some others.)
You don't rip Ali for things you wouldn't rip other fighters for?
Most recently, the comment about the 1st Liston fight being fixed was "plausible"? (You may want to look the word up.)
If you think it was plausible for that fight to be fixed, you could say that about any fight.

Ezzard wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:When you are fighting the best, often your best chance is to be unpredictable. Ali's chin was too good for a slugger to ko him; and when he was in his prime he was very difficult to hit. No fast boxer is going to give him a lot of trouble becasue he could what they did better.
Having a good left hook isn't going to help you much. Ali was knocked down a total of 2 times in 61 fights from left hooks. Both times he got up immedialey. Frazier fought 41 rounds with him and could only do it once. Frazier may have had the best left hook of anyone. Most of the time when he was able to land it nothing happened. Patterson had a very good left hook and it did him little good against Ali.

Holyfield could both box and go toe to toe, mixing it up in the same fight and sometimes the same round.. He had good handspeed, and was an accurrate puncher. On offense he would probably do the best. Holyfield din't have a good defense so Ali would have little trouble hitting him.
Nevertheless, he would proably have the best chance against a prime Ali.

Outside of Holyfield, Johnson, Dempsey,Tunney,Louis, and Holmes would do the best.

It's not just about the knockdowns... But it is significant that it was left hooks that put him down. Norton didn't manage to drop Ali but that left hook lead he often used definitely gave him problems throughout all three fights.

Having a left hook alone won't do it but it's a great starting place.

Ali looked best against sluggers and punchers like Liston and Foreman.

I never thought Norton's left hook gave Ali much trouble at all. It was his defense that gave Ali trouble.

The case you make for Holyfield - Ali t is an interesting one. It may hold water but here are some empircal cracks to consider.

How Ali fared vs a younger Foreman vs How Evander fared against an older version of same.

How Ali fared vs Joe Frazier vs How Evander did against Dwight Muhammad Qawi.

You can make what you will of these fights, but they may provide a fair counter argument to your thoughts. In both cases these opponents (IMHO) did a bit better than they should have against Holyfield if your assessment is sound.

Hey I have to say I don't strongly disagree with you, but those were the critical thoughts that came to me if my job was to deconstruct your theory soley for the purpose of enraging granberry. The Tyson experience does help make your case, but Tyson was so inconsistent by this time it's hard to factor it. Frazier, Qawi and Foreman provide a bit more reliable data.

The other side of this coin is that Holyfield and Ali had two of the toughest "no quit" psyches/mental constitutions to ever enter the ring.....and that spells a very painful, prideful and destructive fight for both.

Frazier and Holyfield just might be the most destructive fight outside of Ali/Frazier to ever be imagined. With neither man being able to produce that magic one punch KO (based on each other's chins) the damage could be nearly unimaginable over the course of the old 15 round routine.

I'd go with:

Louis, on counterpunching / handspeed/ accuracy&timing, threw more compact shots than Ali (but was troubled my movers)
Vit Klit on size strength and awkwardness (but would give away a significant edge in athleticism)
Peak Sonny Liston vs the older Ali 71 onwards
Holmes better jab than Ali IMO, many similar qualities (though lacks the allround sparkle)
Lennox Lewis as a size/power/ some skill package

actually replace liston peak or otherwise with Tyson

its hilarious how Ali threads turn into women's knitting circle pecking-parties, by the way.

Counter-puncher wrote:I'd go with:

Louis, on counterpunching / handspeed/ accuracy&timing, threw more compact shots than Ali (but was troubled my movers)
Vit Klit on size strength and awkwardness (but would give away a significant edge in athleticism)
Peak Sonny Liston vs the older Ali 71 onwards
Holmes better jab than Ali IMO, many similar qualities (though lacks the allround sparkle)
Lennox Lewis as a size/power/ some skill package

actually replace liston peak or otherwise with Tyson

its hilarious how Ali threads turn into women's knitting circle pecking-parties, by the way.

good addition to that circle pecking by the way.....laying out of a solid sensible thought, and following up with a clear irreverent, and insinuation of irrelevance regarding others. I can appreciate the hilarious aspect as well as the irony.

i have no idea what that is supposed to mean

Counter-puncher wrote:i have no idea what that is supposed to mean

Good, then my anonymity in terms of intent will remain securely obfuscated!

Holyfield is by far my favorite Heavyweight in history. That being said, Ali before 74 would out speed him. evander's perfect punching form and will would cause problems along the way. but i can't see him winning. If Ali layed on the ropes, Holyfield would beat him.

I give Tyson zero chance. He would be mentally defeated before the fight ever happened and the most likely scenario is an enraged and frustrated Tyson gets DQ'd.

Obviously Frazier & Norton were capable of beating him.

Holmes mirrored his style. I think he may have had a slightly better jab and a bit more power. Ali was the superior athlete. that's a tight fight every time.

A name I haven't seen mentioned is Tim Witherspoon. He had the ability to take away the jab like Norton did and while Ali was more susceptible to hooks, Tim's over hand right could find a home and I think he could frustrate Ali.


Riddick Bowe- Say what you want about his longevity. But a guy that big with great infighting skills is a handful for anybody. Ali would have to get in range and Bowe was quicker than people give him credit for.

"...By the way, I notice from the info to the right of your posts that you are in Sydney. Me too. So if you fancy meeting up and whining to my face, let me know." - Collins

What a sad indictment of you this is. I'm betting you're not even ashamed of this limp statement in retrospect, are you? Has turning thirteen gone to your head?

You want to meet up in person over criticisms I have made of Muhammad Ali?

Yeah, I'm the one who needs the lesson in objectivity.

P.S.

Alp, I would never class you in the same frame as Galt, Collins etc, & didn't include you in my thoughts when I made the statement which provoked your response. I'll concede to hating the heavy artillery of Ali fanatics (on a par with their Tyson counter-parts, which goes a long way), & I'm not going to pretend I like Ali to try & persuade you of my view, but I don't hate the man (& do appreciate your ability to separate me from Ali-despising fools such as Broughton & co, something Collins is incapable or unwilling to do). I'll concede I spend a lot more time criticising him than I do praising or supporting him, which definitely lends itself to the perception I'm an Ali hater. Just feel I see a lot more outrageous statements made in Ali's defense than in his offense, is all --- "hate" &, "Ali" just doesn't sit well with me, in terms of a description of my take on the man. Make of it what you will.

Collins, honestly, mate, I'm worried for your mental stability if you stand by your implied threat to meet me in person. Yes, yes, you'll backpeddle now & tell us all how you were only talking about having a little chat in person. I suppose you think it's as brave as it is considered to talk tough on the 'net with people whom you know nothing about, & have never met. Sorry, but I'm not going to meet you, nor will I engage in a pissing contest over who's tougher, meaner, or a better fighter. I'm met weaker than me & tougher than me, is all I'll delve into. If you haven't the maturity to see the folly of your statement, I do, truly & for the first time, feel for you.

I think it's the saddest thing in a long line of sorry things I've seen you write on this board. Get well.

Would the "Big Guy jabbin'" routine work with Ali? EG: Valuev or the K bros? Did he ever face that? Or do you think his speed would nullify that approach? My guess is that he would simply figure out how to deal with it mid stream if he needed to. The one thing he seemed to typically have was more than one plan, or even be able to whittle a new plan when needed. He was nothing if not creative when the moment required. Combine resourcefulness with a granite chin, great hand and footspeed, decent jab and the ability to deliver good combintations, and you have the reason why we always keep comin' back to this guy (or Joe Lous and his combination of abilities) as the benchmarks for the sport.

BoxBuzz wrote:Would the "Big Guy jabbin'" routine work with Ali? EG: Valuev or the K bros? Did he ever face that? Or do you think his speed would nullify that approach? My guess is that he would simply figure out how to deal with it mid stream if he needed to. The one thing he seemed to typically have was more than one plan, or even be able to whittle a new plan when needed. He was nothing if not creative when the moment required. Combine resourcefulness with a granite chin, great hand and footspeed, decent jab and the ability to deliver good combintations, and you have the reason why we always keep comin' back to this guy (or Joe Lous and his combination of abilities) as the benchmarks for the sport.

Buzz, from his pre-exile fights, Terrell and Duke Sabedong were both 6'6", if memory serves. And Alejandro Lavorante and Charley Powell were in the 6'4" range, as I recall.

raylawpc wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Would the "Big Guy jabbin'" routine work with Ali? EG: Valuev or the K bros? Did he ever face that? Or do you think his speed would nullify that approach? My guess is that he would simply figure out how to deal with it mid stream if he needed to. The one thing he seemed to typically have was more than one plan, or even be able to whittle a new plan when needed. He was nothing if not creative when the moment required. Combine resourcefulness with a granite chin, great hand and footspeed, decent jab and the ability to deliver good combintations, and you have the reason why we always keep comin' back to this guy (or Joe Lous and his combination of abilities) as the benchmarks for the sport.

Buzz, from his pre-exile fights, Terrell and Duke Sabedong were both 6'6", if memory serves. And Alejandro Lavorante and Charley Powell were in the 6'4" range, as I recall.

Yeah but I just can't remember and would have to go back and take a look at those fights. It may be my bad memory but I can't remember fighters taking the strategy of Valuev and the K bros in terms of how they use their height in combo with their jabs to such a consistently relentless extent.

BoxBuzz wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Would the "Big Guy jabbin'" routine work with Ali? EG: Valuev or the K bros? Did he ever face that? Or do you think his speed would nullify that approach? My guess is that he would simply figure out how to deal with it mid stream if he needed to. The one thing he seemed to typically have was more than one plan, or even be able to whittle a new plan when needed. He was nothing if not creative when the moment required. Combine resourcefulness with a granite chin, great hand and footspeed, decent jab and the ability to deliver good combintations, and you have the reason why we always keep comin' back to this guy (or Joe Lous and his combination of abilities) as the benchmarks for the sport.

Buzz, from his pre-exile fights, Terrell and Duke Sabedong were both 6'6", if memory serves. And Alejandro Lavorante and Charley Powell were in the 6'4" range, as I recall.

Yeah but I just can't remember and would have to go back and take a look at those fights. It may be my bad memory but I can't remember fighters taking the strategy of Valuev and the K bros in terms of how they use their height in combo with their jabs to such a consistently relentless extent.

I was just trying to help you out by listing guys that I knew were taller than Ali from his pre-exile days.

Sabedong, Powell, and Levorante weren't great fighters, and I don't know much about their styles. I certainly never saw them. But Terrell matches up fairly well with the big K. Terrell had a good jab, faster, I think, than K's and had better movement. But not as bulky or physically strong as K. I think Terrell tried to use his height advantage against Ali, but couldn't get his jab going to any great effect.

Terrell's bouts with Ali and Bob Foster are on youtube, so you can judge for yourself.

BoxBuzz wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:i have no idea what that is supposed to mean

Good, then my anonymity in terms of intent will remain securely obfuscated!

'anonymity' and 'intent' don't scan together at all. 'enigmatism' 'mysteriousness' or 'obtuseness' would have been better.

Would the "Big Guy jabbin'" routine work with Ali? EG: Valuev or the K bros? Did he ever face that? Or do you think his speed would nullify that approach? My guess is that he would simply figure out how to deal with it mid stream if he needed to. The one thing he seemed to typically have was more than one plan, or even be able to whittle a new plan when needed. He was nothing if not creative when the moment required. Combine resourcefulness with a granite chin, great hand and footspeed, decent jab and the ability to deliver good combintations, and you have the reason why we always keep comin' back to this guy (or Joe Lous and his combination of abilities) as the benchmarks for the sport.

good points. as i considered my potential Ali-conquerors, each time, as you will have seen, the various reasons they would have failed to beat Ali, came to mind straight after any reasons they could have beaten him.

of the fighters listed, though it pains me to say it, Tyson has the best shot IMO. he wins minimum 1 from 3. IMO

ps can i be your friend please?

Friends? Be careful, the first thing I'll do is ask to borrow money just to test the good faith of that bond.

Tyson? Maybe, if in top shape, a good frame of mind and a bit lucky. He's not going to psyche M.A. like he did others, in fact that dynamic really works against him. He's not likely to KO him (though he may have the best chance especially if Ali tries any clowning early on). And he can't match him past the 6th round in any endurance game. So he has to put all his eggs in an early KO basket based on an early night huge punch when operating at his top speed, which most have to admit could be pretty impressive.

I still think Holyfield based on his strong mental game has the better shot at the upset though.

true. for some reason i was thinking late KO to Tyson when all the available evidence suggests it's an earlyish KO or bust, even for the early/prime/peak/zenith Tyson beloved of internet forum ranters. of course i made the classic error, Frazier put Ali down with a left hook, Tyson faster more dynamic than Frazier, 2x2 = 5 type of off the cuff answer there.

Tyson could outpoint Ali over 12 if he stayed the course though?

I just don't think Tyson has the endurance of Frazier.....he gassed way earlier. Frazier was a phenom in that dept. Endurance beyond belief as long as he stayed concious.