BoxRec

Collins2000 wrote:Heavier gloves result in more knockdowns?

We are talking enormously heavy gloves. Gloves that have such weight they can bring a man down without the need of a fighters fist. These were first trotted out by Max Baer in his famous double digit Knockdown fight with Primo Carnera. They have since been banned and placed in the Smithsonian for safe keeping.

Apparently they are due for release?

BoxBuzz wrote:We are talking enormously heavy gloves.

- Don't know about this "we" business, but Fitz and Jeff was fighting in 2-4 oz gloves. Dempsey and Louis in 6oz gloves, Ali in 8-10 oz gloves, and a few years back they went to 12 oz gloves.

Run a graph with height, weight and title KO% recorded, you'll see increasing trends in all 3 categories.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:We are talking enormously heavy gloves.

- Don't know about this "we" business, but Fitz and Jeff was fighting in 2-4 oz gloves. Dempsey and Louis in 6oz gloves, Ali in 8-10 oz gloves, and a few years back they went to 12 oz gloves.

Run a graph with height, weight and title KO% recorded, you'll see increasing trends in all 3 categories.

Jeff routinely fought in 5 ounces gloves - which was the standard for title fights with passage of the Horton Act circa 1895.

Well More to the point....are the royal "we" connecting the dots? Stating that heavier gloves cause more KD's? Even if KD's are up, is there any reason to ascribe this as a reason? It would seem as likely to be attributed to global warming.

Seems counter intuitive, however this is not the first time I've heard this argument made....and maybe it's a flat out fact. I'm just stirring the pot to get to the bottom of it. Collins seems to be sceptical as well. But his behavior may be directly due to global warming.

Having been in the ring myself, I can say that I would much rather be hit by someone wearing 16oz gloves, than someone wearing bag mitts. I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make regarding knockdowns, but punches from the lighter gloves just hurt so much more, especially body shots.

jezzamundo wrote:Having been in the ring myself, I can say that I would much rather be hit by someone wearing 16oz gloves, than someone wearing bag mitts. I'm not sure how much of a difference it would make regarding knockdowns, but punches from the lighter gloves just hurt so much more, especially body shots.

gotta ask... r u jeremy allen?

raylawpc wrote: Jeff routinely fought in 5 ounces gloves - which was the standard for title fights with passage of the Horton Act circa 1895.

- What does a NY law have to do with a novice fighter coming up in turn of the century Cali? Some of those period gloves are pretty flimsy.

The law expired after 5 yrs according to box rec, meaning IF Jeff abided by the law, he was no longer encumbered at the end of his career. Fitz, my other example, was fighting a decade before the law.

Point being that the long term trend is gloves are getting larger for all classes, and esp the heavies.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

raylawpc wrote: Jeff routinely fought in 5 ounces gloves - which was the standard for title fights with passage of the Horton Act circa 1895.

- What does a NY law have to do with a novice fighter coming up in turn of the century Cali? Some of those period gloves are pretty flimsy.

The law expired after 5 yrs according to box rec, meaning IF Jeff abided by the law, he was no longer encumbered at the end of his career. Fitz, my other example, was fighting a decade before the law.

Point being that the long term trend is gloves are getting larger for all classes, and esp the heavies.

Because, once again, you try to make an argument with faulty facts. YOU said that Jeff and Fitz fought with 2 to 4 ounces gloves. The FACTS are that the Jeff fought Fitz in 5 ounces gloves, as required by New York law. He continued using 5-ounce Levinson gloves in his later California title bouts, and also the Johnson fight.

You actually write some interesting, provocative posts. Your habit of making up facts really detracts from your arguments.

raylawpc wrote:

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

raylawpc wrote: Jeff routinely fought in 5 ounces gloves - which was the standard for title fights with passage of the Horton Act circa 1895.

- What does a NY law have to do with a novice fighter coming up in turn of the century Cali? Some of those period gloves are pretty flimsy.

The law expired after 5 yrs according to box rec, meaning IF Jeff abided by the law, he was no longer encumbered at the end of his career. Fitz, my other example, was fighting a decade before the law.

Point being that the long term trend is gloves are getting larger for all classes, and esp the heavies.

Because, once again, you try to make an argument with faulty facts. YOU said that Jeff and Fitz fought with 2 to 4 ounces gloves. The FACTS are that the Jeff fought Fitz in 5 ounces gloves, as required by New York law. He continued using 5-ounce Levinson gloves in his later California title bouts, and also the Johnson fight.

You actually write some interesting, provocative posts. Your habit of making up facts really detracts from your arguments.

- I've never even seen a photo of Jeff against Peter Jackson which you'd think would've been a fairly big event with the young sensation against the storied legend of yore.

Thanks for the back handed compliment, but I'm not convinced every boxer in Cali, Utah, or Timbuktu followed NY law and why should they? Nor have Jeffries' private club bouts have ever been mentioned in conjunction to his record though I heard there was an extensive bio out of recent form out that may address the early years.

Perhaps I assumed too much regarding Jeff and gloves in my general haste to demonstrate that modern gloves may be as much as 600% heavier. I can appreciate a correction applicable in NY but not convinced it's provable across Jeffries current career of 22 fights much less Fitz who may have some bareknuckle background.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
- I've never even seen a photo of Jeff against Peter Jackson which you'd think would've been a fairly big event with the young sensation against the storied legend of yore.

Thanks for the back handed compliment, but I'm not convinced every boxer in Cali, Utah, or Timbuktu followed NY law and why should they? Nor have Jeffries' private club bouts have ever been mentioned in conjunction to his record though I heard there was an extensive bio out of recent form out that may address the early years.

Perhaps I assumed too much regarding Jeff and gloves in my general haste to demonstrate that modern gloves may be as much as 600% heavier. I can appreciate a correction applicable in NY but not convinced it's provable across Jeffries current career of 22 fights much less Fitz who may have some bareknuckle background.

What does a photo of Jeff v. Jackson have to do with anything?

Your posts remind me of the governor's song in "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas" -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mNDHTfdn1A

"Ooh I love to dance a little sidestep, now they see me now they don't-
I've come and gone and, ooh I love to sweep around the wide step,
cut a little swathe and lead the people on."

raylawpc wrote:

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
- I've never even seen a photo of Jeff against Peter Jackson which you'd think would've been a fairly big event with the young sensation against the storied legend of yore.

Thanks for the back handed compliment, but I'm not convinced every boxer in Cali, Utah, or Timbuktu followed NY law and why should they? Nor have Jeffries' private club bouts have ever been mentioned in conjunction to his record though I heard there was an extensive bio out of recent form out that may address the early years.

Perhaps I assumed too much regarding Jeff and gloves in my general haste to demonstrate that modern gloves may be as much as 600% heavier. I can appreciate a correction applicable in NY but not convinced it's provable across Jeffries current career of 22 fights much less Fitz who may have some bareknuckle background.

What does a photo of Jeff v. Jackson have to do with anything?

Your posts remind me of the governor's song in "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas" -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mNDHTfdn1A

"Ooh I love to dance a little sidestep, now they see me now they don't-
I've come and gone and, ooh I love to sweep around the wide step,
cut a little swathe and lead the people on."

That little "bit" won him an academy award for best supporting actor. It's just a great piece of cinema! Good call by the way.

Buzz, one hopes that Boxrec doesn't bestow a similar award on Broughton for his performance of the Texas side-step.

raylawpc wrote:Buzz, one hopes that Boxrec doesn't bestow a similar award on Broughton for his performance of the Texas side-step.

- Clicked on the clip in hopes to see a still of Jackson/Jeffries.

Where's the proof you have for 5 oz gloves for Jeff's entire career? Some obscure NY state law expiring after 5 yrs legislating a sport often conducted illegally with essential details like dates, weights, results and locale in contradiction if even known?

Seems to be a pattern with you gents, ignoring the essential subject of the header in favor of wanting to mince minor details when not going completely off the rails like the Lipton thread.

1. I never said Jeff fought with 5 ounces gloves for his whole career. (In his early fights, the papers did not report the size of the gloves.) You, on the otherhand, asserted that Fitz and Jeff fought one another in 2 and 4 ounce gloves.

2. That so-called "obscure" Horton Law mandated bouts be fought with 5 ounces gloves. So that covered the Armstrong, Fitz I, Sharkey II and Corbett I fights. If you think that promoters and managers, who lobbied long and hard for legalized boxing in New York, would ignore the mandate for 5 ounced gloves, you are nuts.

3. The contracts for his fights in California with Ruhlin, Fitz II, Corbett II, and Munroe called for 5 ounce gloves. Those contracts were all published in the newspapers at the time, as was the Johnson fight.

raylawpc wrote:1. I never said Jeff fought with 5 ounces gloves for his whole career. (In his early fights, the papers did not report the size of the gloves.) You, on the otherhand, asserted that Fitz and Jeff fought one another in 2 and 4 ounce gloves.

- That's a mistranslation of what I stated:

- Don't know about this "we" business, but Fitz and Jeff was fighting in 2-4 oz gloves. Dempsey and Louis in 6oz gloves, Ali in 8-10 oz gloves, and a few years back they went to 12 oz gloves.

I'm surprised nobody is cracking on me for using the wrong tense as Fitz and Jeff was fighting instead of were fighting, but in my very next example one surely understands Dempsey and Louis never fought. I can see how it could have another meaning taking in isolation, but I don't feel like I made much of an overstatement especially in context to the point gloves have gotten heavier over time which is indisputable.

I see people make up the most bogus barf imaginable on a daily basis, so whatever. I was hoping to find some credible dialogue which does exist, but it quickly gets buried in bogus barf.

I contend that the size increases of the fighters and gloves, rules changes and officiating changes has led to more KDs and KOs, but that's general observation and not backed up. Even if it's not proven, interviews with fighters tend to bear out it's their belief you have to get bigger to compete. Thus the quest of Haye to add another 15-20 lbs like every fighter moving up to heavy wishes that I can recall.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

raylawpc wrote:1. I never said Jeff fought with 5 ounces gloves for his whole career. (In his early fights, the papers did not report the size of the gloves.) You, on the otherhand, asserted that Fitz and Jeff fought one another in 2 and 4 ounce gloves.

- That's a mistranslation of what I stated:

- Don't know about this "we" business, but Fitz and Jeff was fighting in 2-4 oz gloves. Dempsey and Louis in 6oz gloves, Ali in 8-10 oz gloves, and a few years back they went to 12 oz gloves.

I'm surprised nobody is cracking on me for using the wrong tense as Fitz and Jeff was fighting instead of were fighting, but in my very next example one surely understands Dempsey and Louis never fought. I can see how it could have another meaning taking in isolation, but I don't feel like I made much of an overstatement especially in context to the point gloves have gotten heavier over time which is indisputable.

I see people make up the most bogus barf imaginable on a daily basis, so whatever. I was hoping to find some credible dialogue which does exist, but it quickly gets buried in bogus barf.

I contend that the size increases of the fighters and gloves, rules changes and officiating changes has led to more KDs and KOs, but that's general observation and not backed up. Even if it's not proven, interviews with fighters tend to bear out it's their belief you have to get bigger to compete. Thus the quest of Haye to add another 15-20 lbs like every fighter moving up to heavy wishes that I can recall.

Which is it BRR? Is he having to add on extra lbs via diet and weights? I thought in your mind he was a natural 220 lbs sweating down to 200? Since the likes of Frazier and Terrell would be cruiser now . . right, right?

The truth is the wide majority of the cruisers are big light heavyweights and the majority of current heavyweights are overweight. End of story.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

raylawpc wrote:1. I never said Jeff fought with 5 ounces gloves for his whole career. (In his early fights, the papers did not report the size of the gloves.) You, on the otherhand, asserted that Fitz and Jeff fought one another in 2 and 4 ounce gloves.

- That's a mistranslation of what I stated:

- Don't know about this "we" business, but Fitz and Jeff was fighting in 2-4 oz gloves. Dempsey and Louis in 6oz gloves, Ali in 8-10 oz gloves, and a few years back they went to 12 oz gloves.

I'm surprised nobody is cracking on me for using the wrong tense as Fitz and Jeff was fighting instead of were fighting, but in my very next example one surely understands Dempsey and Louis never fought. I can see how it could have another meaning taking in isolation, but I don't feel like I made much of an overstatement especially in context to the point gloves have gotten heavier over time which is indisputable.

I see people make up the most bogus barf imaginable on a daily basis, so whatever. I was hoping to find some credible dialogue which does exist, but it quickly gets buried in bogus barf.

I contend that the size increases of the fighters and gloves, rules changes and officiating changes has led to more KDs and KOs, but that's general observation and not backed up. Even if it's not proven, interviews with fighters tend to bear out it's their belief you have to get bigger to compete. Thus the quest of Haye to add another 15-20 lbs like every fighter moving up to heavy wishes that I can recall.

The BRR approach to credible dialogue:

"Ooh I love to dance a little sidestep, now they see me now they don't-
I've come and gone and, ooh I love to sweep around the wide step,
cut a little swathe and lead the people on."

BRR: "I see people make up the most bogus barf imaginable on a daily basis." That's a classic example of the pot calling the kettle black.

gotta ask... r u jeremy allen?

No. Actually my experience is limited to sparring and a couple of organised bouts with friends. I've sparred with Robbie Bryant a few times, but was never anywhere near his level, so I won't be winning titles any time soon!