BoxRec

Robinson wrote: I had Holmes just winning against Williams. BUT...lets say he lost....
plenty of champs have had their 'gift' wins in the ring.
Is Holmes loss, which was close...any worse than say...a Dempsey(Tunney),
Louis(Charles) etc losing to a LHW ?
And I had Holmes ahead of Norton in that fight, quite comfortably.
Holmes was a late starter as such, and developed nicely. He was able to
prove that in his late 40s that he was a capable contender and entertainer.

Your hate of Holmes hurts my heart BRR.

- I liked Larry just fine in the day, but I never could figure out why he wouldn't fight the best in the division, the other young prime champs. By the time of dubious decisions leading to Rocky record, I figured the streak was another DKing engineered scam. Dempsey/Louis were never shut down against Tunney/Charles like Holmes was against Spinks in that first fight.

Nor did I see applicable contender aptitude into his forties. His best fight was the Field loss and that down to Field having another of his meltdowns in the ring that he was quite fortunate to have an old toothless dog hobbling about with assistance from the ropes to go against.

If Calzaghe had a half dozen prime talented supermid title holders in his division he'd been avoiding for 7 yrs the outrage would blow the earth's atmosphere into space. Holmes the poster boy for the modern breed of ABC champ manufactured like sausage by promoters and boxing orgs.

Need to remember that Ernie Shavers didn't need a highly disputed split decision to use a past his best Norton to gild Shaver's lilly like Mr. man used Kenny to do for Holmes. If Holmes is made one of the top heavies ever based on his Norton win, then Shavers must be top dog in the historical rankings as he demolished Norton months later.

BRR

Well imagine if Holmes requested 10 rounders instead of 15
for his defences against a LHW. And I think that Holmes-Spinks 1
was a some what close affair. Charles and Dempsey were
definite wins, and have never really been argued as controversial.

How did you score Holmes-Norton?

Holmes missed fights on Coetzee, Tate, Page, Tillis, Tubbs.
I would love to have seen him fight these men, the trouble is
most of them eliminated themselves with inconsistencies.

I agree, that Holmes exploited the alpahabet politics and made
money for himself in his fights against Frank, Frazier etc...
but what is wrong with that ? The ABC gangs of that era messed
things up, not the champ. In any case we can condemned Holmes
for his defences, BUT... we can also nit pick at the strengths and
weaknesses of other champions opponents.

Robinson wrote:BRR

Well imagine if Holmes requested 10 rounders instead of 15
for his defences against a LHW. And I think that Holmes-Spinks 1
was a some what close affair. Charles and Dempsey were
definite wins, and have never really been argued as controversial.

How did you score Holmes-Norton?

Holmes missed fights on Coetzee, Tate, Page, Tillis, Tubbs.
I would love to have seen him fight these men, the trouble is
most of them eliminated themselves with inconsistencies.

- I imagine you wouldn't be so exposed like this if you knew of what you were talking.

Assuming you're talking of Dempsey's two title fights against Tunney, thought the first 10 rounder down to period Pennsylvania laws regarding length of contests. Rematch was in Illinois and Dempsey not the champ. Dempsey defended against Carp in a 12 rounder in NY, and Gibbons in a 15 rounder in Montana in his other defenses against LH challengers, so whatever point you make regarding 10 rds is poorly developed.

Dempsey also had a 4 rounder against Darcy in NY that was set by the NY commish. JJohnson had several 6 rd defenses, and any could have been 20, 40, or 60 rd affairs under the correct jurisdictions.

I had Norton winning by a couple of 3 rds as I recall, and most importantly the all important last round the fight depended on by official scoring for the winner. Don't forget Tucker, Thomas and Bruno as other excellent prime heavy talents Holmesy managed to maneuver around. Could've used a dozen figure instead of half dozen but it boggles limited imaginations when the names of other ABC champs are actually listed that he avoided. Funny, but being divinely inconsistent sure didn't hinder Zanon, Rodriguez, Weaver, LeDeux, Leon, ect from their shots.

Need to review Holmes/Spinks I again. Holmes didn't land a single right, throwing less than a handful, and was out of range for most of his jabs in spite of Spinks being front and center on him. Completely frozen out by Spinks who would snap his jab over Larry's guard and land a few rights to make Holmes gunshy. Not a beating, just a major shutdown of a past it champ hoist on his own petard carrying the ghost of Rocky's jockstrap.

Someone's making up more porkie pies again.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:
I had Norton winning by a couple of 3 rds as I recall, and most importantly the all important last round the fight depended on by official scoring for the winner.

.

FACT: winning the final round gives you at least 5 times as many points as winning any other round of the fight.

In regards to Holmes-Norton I disagree. I do not think it was
as close or as desperate as it has been suggested by your
or others in the past.

Regarding Spinks-Holmes 1. I can see how it was scored for
Spinks, I do agree that Holmes was frustrated by Spinks awkward
style.

Some of the guys you mention were defeated by men that Holmes
went on to face.

Ocassio beat Jimmy Young...eliminating Young when he was still
considered relevant.

Berbick beat John Tate....just prior to facimh Holmes knocking
Tate out of the picture.

Snipes beat Gerrie Coetzee......this eliminated the Sth African,
the politics of the time also prevented Holmes from facing
Coetzee at a later stage.

Smith beat Bruno....his Ko win over big Frank eliminated Bruno
from contention.

Bey beat Page....beating Greg Page secured Bey a shot at Holmes,
also eliminating Page at this time.

Williams beat Tillis....Tillis was always a handy fringe contender that
could have lunged into a title shot with one key win. The Truth
however shut him out at this time.

Tony Tucker, Tony Tubbs, Pinklon Thomas, Michael Dokes are the
guys that never got shots against Holmes. They would have made
some great fights, but their inconsistiency in and out of the ring
really made them up and down as contenders/

I would have loved to have seen Holmes fight these men, but alas
he did not.

These facts have been pointed out to BRR before.

He is not interested in such facts.

He prefers fantasy.

I never knew one could win "by a couple of 3 rounds"

You learn something new everyday!!

It hurts my heart when some one says bad things about
Holmes. Make him stop...make him stop !

I think I had Holmes winning by a couple of 4 rounds against
Norton ;)

Robinson wrote: Some of the guys you mention were defeated by men that Holmes
went on to face..................I would have loved to have seen Holmes fight these men, but alas
he did not.

- Alas, he never held more than one of the belts, the first overrated ABC champ in history.

Other champs were busy fighting each other in more compelling fights that Holmesy had no stomach for, much better talents than most of the comp Larry did face and you can't dance around it. No rematch for Norton either who was a hell of a lot bigger gate attraction than Holmesy's first three title defenses against Evangelista, Ocasio, and Weaver not to mention 100x more highly regarded as a contender.

To put the thread back to topic, as I mentioned, Frazier/Quarry I & II and Arguello/Pryor I were 3 fights packed to the top with rounds of the year quality rounds as good or better than what has been mentioned thus far.

In BRR's fantasy world Norton never got KO'd in ONE round by Earnie Shavers in their elimination bout.

In BRR's fantasy world it is more reasonable to fight the LOSER of an elimination bout.

IN BRR's fantasy world, people actually think he knows something about boxing. And basball too.

Delusional or what?

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

Counter-puncher wrote:Holmes - Witherspoon round 9. best heavyweight round i have seen.

- I'd put any round of Arguello/Pryor 1 and Quarry/Frazier 1/2 over any of these so called rounds of the year everyone touts.

Either throw a dart to pick the round or, better yet, watch em back to back to back as a whole the way God intended them to be judged.

The first round of the first Quarry-Frazier fight was a hellacious round, one of the best in heavyweight history, to my way of thinking.

Collins2000 wrote:In BRR's fantasy world Norton never got KO'd in ONE round by Earnie Shavers in their elimination bout.

In BRR's fantasy world it is more reasonable to fight the LOSER of an elimination bout.

IN BRR's fantasy world, people actually think he knows something about boxing. And basball too.

Delusional or what?

- Why if it ain't the board's favourite, silly, sloppy, soft little puppy, our little collie running up for another boot.

Knowing nothing of boxing trumps the silly slurple gushing out of our little collie, so boxing topics need not bother his little puppy development.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:In BRR's fantasy world Norton never got KO'd in ONE round by Earnie Shavers in their elimination bout.

In BRR's fantasy world it is more reasonable to fight the LOSER of an elimination bout.

IN BRR's fantasy world, people actually think he knows something about boxing. And basball too.

Delusional or what?

- Why if it ain't the board's favourite, silly, sloppy, soft little puppy, our little collie running up for another boot.

Knowing nothing of boxing trumps the silly slurple gushing out of our little collie, so boxing topics need not bother his little puppy development.

More gay banter from BRR.

I notice he ignores the point that Norton was KO'd inside one round in an eliminator. And Holmes took on the winner.

Imagine if Holmes had turned down Shavers. BRR would be whining like a bitch that Holmes ducked Shavers.

Poor old Larry can't win with the Johnny Come Lately's like BRR.

Why don't you offer to beat him up in the street, as you did with me, Collins?

That oughtta fix him.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Why don't you offer to beat him up in the street, as you did with me, Collins?

That oughtta fix him.

My offer is still open to you, Irene.

When you grow some balls, just let me know.

Until then, just keep entertaining me with your ridiculous threads. "Sliding greats" was hilarious.

I thought you two were going to catch up over a brew.

I was in Sydney the other week for a fight, and none of
you guys wanted to hang out....I had to cry and cuddle
my pillow all night as it rained like long sad tears outside.

Robinson wrote:I thought you two were going to catch up over a brew.

I was in Sydney the other week for a fight, and none of
you guys wanted to hang out....I had to cry and cuddle
my pillow all night as it rained like long sad tears outside.

Kym, I don't want to do anything that might upset Gran.

You getting Harold Johnson DVDs most likely did that.

"My offer is still open to you, Irene.

When you grow some balls, just let me know.

Until then, just keep entertaining me with your ridiculous threads. "Sliding greats" was hilarious." - Collins

Not even embarressed by it in retrospect, are you? Man, it ain't even funny. It's truly bizarre. Okay, I'll bite on this one --- just what is your plan, were you to, say, run into me? What would you do?

What a sad state of affairs. Take a look at yourself. You want to physically meet & assault someone because you have the perception they are Anti-Ali.

Okay, snide sniping aside, it's slightly disturbing this all means that much to you. Go outside & enjoy yourself a little, Collins. Ride a bike. Fly a kite. See a therapist.

Whatever you do --- take a look in the mirror at yourself! You are driven to the point of making threats to meet someone in person over their posts on a Message Board --- posts which are not personal in any way, but simply pertain to the opinion of a former boxer. Get real, mate. Get real, & get well.

Goodnight, Irene wrote: You want to physically meet & assault someone because you have the perception they are Anti-Ali?

No, not because you are anti-ali. It's because you are are a wanker. And local, so it's quite feasible.

But, I assume you are declining my invitation?

(PS Someone posted on 'sliding greats'! Your life has some meaning after all.)

Not sure if this or this is in order, but, fair play, you're a slightly disturbed fellow, aren't you, Collins?

At any rate, I'm curious. Does it occur to you you may be taking just a little risk in challenging someone over the Internet? I mean, who are you really dealing with, here?

Obviously, you've got it in your head I'm a four-foot, 90lb. nerdling. Just curious --- done this kind of thing before? If so, have people taken you up on it?

Here it is, mate. You've got my attention. I'm listening.

Can't we just hug ?

I have to admit, it's interesting. Are we twelve years old, here? That someone is so moved by Internet postings they wish to assault someone in real life --- if your life is that empty, surely you wouldn't advertise it? Of course, there is no such discretionary common sense in Collins' little World.

Wondering if he lives in an apartment with my postings printed out & adorned across the walls & ceiling, pumping weights & crying while he listens to Opera.



That you, Collie?

i think for quite some while holmes had to convince
first of all himself that he could be worldclass material.
it is one thing to wish for something and another to
really believe you can do it. i guess that is why he did
not appear earlier on the big screen.

i admit i used to be not interested in holmes at all. i
had the feeling he was "great" among many "non-greats"
in the early eighties. felt like the guy jumping after the
big show on stage and showing off for the cleaning
personnel - yes he can move, yes he has something, but ...

started to change my mind and getting more respect for
his achievement and his style, especially this very long and
straight jab. holmes is the kind of guy that inspires controversy.
on the one hand a solid record, on the other a lack of real
great opponents. on the one hand boxing long on top stage,
on the other getting in after the big boys had left. i guess
you prolong this list if you wish ...

so with him it depends on the angle from where you are
looking at him. he is definitely some of the very big names.
maybe it ain't that important how big exactly ...

The momentum swing in Ali-Shavers round 15 makes it one of my favourites.

Ali looks out of it. But then...