Eubank vs Collins

[gb]

So Both were Top5 in the world in 1 of best Middleweight Eras we've seen and there have been plenty of worse Middleweight Champions in history, and you could argue the likes of Lamotta and Pavlik weren't World Class if you're goin to argue Benn/Eubank weren't. Ultimately neither were Linear/Ring Champs and ultimately they weren't as good as the great forementioned Yanks/Jamaican, but that doesn't mean they weren't world class, they just weren't Milky Way Class

Man, you just suggested that an old-timer wasn't the greatest thing to ever lace on gloves. HOW DARE YOU!!!
Next you'll be saying that some champions from the modern era are better than some from the 1950's!

[mickey1975]

and there lies the point.they would all have given them good bouts.watching same stuff today,that sadly doesent happen

[J]

which idiot put lamotta in the same sentence as Pavlik?


i dont need to say anything further.

[gb]

which idiot put lamotta in the same sentence as Pavlik?


i dont need to say anything further.

I kind of predicted this reaction.
LaMotta must be better than Pavlik, simply based on the fact that he fought before him.

[Autobarn]

not me. someone quoted wrong and may name is next to it, but it wasn't me.

there were lots of major players on the world scene in the early 90s at 160 and 175. benn and eubank are as worthy as jones, toney, mccallum, julian jackson, mcclellan, nunn. (around this time "legendary" hopkins was getting decked by segundo mercado and was apparemntly one of the lowrest paid champs in boxing, for quite a long time) all these men have signature wins at a good level. put it this way, i'm sure mccallum - who lacked charisma and was always considered low reward - would have loved to have got his hands on benn and eubank in what would have been lucrative, high profile fights. economically and in terms of ability, benn and eubank were major players.

i know we used to get 15 round classics like minter-kevin finnegan and conteh-chris finnegan over 15 eipic rounds for nothing more than a british title. however these days title proliferation is something we have to come to terms with, and if a champ who happens to be british can dominate or stop a man regarded as "world class" / top 10, then it's a way of justifying said title...leap forward to today, yes some harm has come to boxing, because nowadays you sometimes need a world title to make the best of britain fight each other. there is bad and there is good (depressing example - arthur-foster jr; lucrative, rewarding example - haye knocking out macca for 3 titles on big stage).

[J]

which idiot put lamotta in the same sentence as Pavlik?


i dont need to say anything further.

I kind of predicted this reaction.
LaMotta must be better than Pavlik, simply based on the fact that he fought before him.

no you ignoramous he WAS better than pavlik cos he WAS better than pavlik. Oh THAT and the below facts: A
side from beating the universally recognised P4P champ in SRR. (possibly of all time)

Won the only world title (NOT ONE OF 4) available off a guy called Marcel Cerdan you may have heard of him? NO? Well lets just say Marcel could scrap a bit certainly will be remembered in the boxing annals a bit tastier than Pavlik or Jermaine taylor

Please go back to the current scene.

[mickey1975]

not me. someone quoted wrong and may name is next to it, but it wasn't me.

there were lots of major players on the world scene in the early 90s at 160 and 175. benn and eubank are as worthy as jones, toney, mccallum, julian jackson, mcclellan, nunn. (around this time "legendary" hopkins was getting decked by segundo mercado and was apparemntly one of the lowrest paid champs in boxing, for quite a long time) all these men have signature wins at a good level. put it this way, i'm sure mccallum - who lacked charisma and was always considered low reward - would have loved to have got his hands on benn and eubank in what would have been lucrative, high profile fights. economically and in terms of ability, benn and eubank were major players.

i know we used to get 15 round classics like minter-kevin finnegan and conteh-chris finnegan over 15 eipic rounds for nothing more than a british title. however these days title proliferation is something we have to come to terms with, and if a champ who happens to be british can dominate or stop a man regarded as "world class" / top 10, then it's a way of justifying said title...leap forward to today, yes some harm has come to boxing, because nowadays you sometimes need a world title to make the best of britain fight each other. there is bad and there is good (depressing example - arthur-foster jr; lucrative, rewarding example - haye knocking out macca for 3 titles on big stage).

mccallum is really hard work as a person,as is hopkins

[gb]

which idiot put lamotta in the same sentence as Pavlik?


i dont need to say anything further.

I kind of predicted this reaction.
LaMotta must be better than Pavlik, simply based on the fact that he fought before him.

no you ignoramous he WAS better than pavlik cos he WAS better than pavlik. Oh THAT and the below facts: A
side from beating the universally recognised P4P champ in SRR. (possibly of all time)

Won the only world title (NOT ONE OF 4) available off a guy called Marcel Cerdan you may have heard of him? NO? Well lets just say Marcel could scrap a bit certainly will be remembered in the boxing annals a bit tastier than Pavlik or Jermaine taylor

Please go back to the current scene.

Yes, I love this sort of reaction!!! I know that Cerdan was the only ever Algerian champ and he had a long running affair with the singer Edith Piaf. I also know that Jake LaMotta was the first man to beat SRR (and also lost to him a number of times). He was also the first guy to win a world title fight in the final round whilst behind on all cards.
Look closely, and you'll see that when SRR lost to LaMotta he was an up and comer who was giving away 15 pounds.
But you're right, LaMotta certainly accomplished more than Pavlik.
What I'm talking about is the seeming reflex action that if anyone compares an old timer to a modern fighter then the old timer MUST be better.
Athletes are now running quicker, jumping higher, lifting more etc... Because of advances in various fields such as nutrition (and possibly partly down to simple natural selection) humans are now stronger and faster than they've ever been. Also factor in the fact that a middleweight in 2009 enters the ring much larger than a middleweight in 1950.

Answer this question and then think about how this relates to comparing boxers from different eras: Who would win a hypothetical 100m race between Jesse Owens and Usain Bolt?

[J]

If owens has access to the same training and nutrition as bolt does now there is every chance he would be quicker.

but you are comparing two dominant athletes..... la motta would have splattered pavlik all over the pavement. Cos he was better.....his record proves this already......as above. If pavlik unfies all the belts then we can discuss those merits.


Please also do not denigrate lamotta's achievement, SRRn was not just an up and comer when Jake beat him it was 1945 and SRR had been in over 50 fights and held victories over la motta and henry armstrong. I suppose cerdan was past it?

to suggest so damages your credibility.

[gb]

If owens has access to the same training and nutrition as bolt does now there is every chance he would be quicker.

but you are comparing two dominant athletes..... la motta would have splattered pavlik all over the pavement. Cos he was better.....his record proves this already......as above. If pavlik unfies all the belts then we can discuss those merits.


Please also do not denigrate lamotta's achievement, SRRn was not just an up and comer when Jake beat him it was 1945 and SRR had been in over 50 fights and held victories over la motta and henry armstrong. I suppose cerdan was past it?

to suggest so damages your credibility.

SRR was NOT the P4P no.1 at the time he lost to LaMotta (as your post implied) and he certainly WAS giving away 15 pounds. He was also 40-0 and hadn't even fought Armstrong! Do your own homework before calling someone else an ignoramous.
My point isn't really about these two specific fighters, it's about what often appears to be a default setting regarding fighters of different eras.

[J]

I never said SRR wasnt giving away weight..... he did so in all of his early contests against la motta based on the fact he was a fuckin welterweight and lamotta was a middleweight einstein, I also never stated he was p4p champ when la motta beat him, the ...............However to compare Pavlik to la motta is ignorant in my opinion.

[He's Gone Jim!]

Eubank didn't have the fitness to finish it by that point. He did not let him off the hook due to Michael Watson flashbacks. Obviously, what happened had an effect on him, but a lot of Chris' WBO controversies were down to the fact that he was nowhere near as good as we Brits imagined him to be. Entertaining, hell yeah, as was Benn, but as Datsue pointed out last week these guys were good domestic operators, not world beaters, Benn's win over McClellan was the exception, not the norm, for these guys.

Eubank was out-worked by Collins, he did not throw certain victory away due to his compassionate streak. His post-fight claims that he eased off due to fears over Collins being hypnotised can be paraphrased into, "I was F-ing knackered and could not close the show!"

Chris got out-smarted.

'Good domestic operators, not world beaters'.

I've heard some fucked up things in my life but that just about takes the fucked up cookie!

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

which idiot put lamotta in the same sentence as Pavlik?

i dont need to say anything further.

J Lamotta was never close to being the best MW of his day. Lloyd Marshall fought and beat him and said all the best black murderers row middleweights would beat Lamotta, Lamotta didnt fight the best of them and chose to go life and death with a 151lb Zivic multiple times instead of fighting Charles Burley who was considered 1 of the top P4P fighters of the era. Lamotta said 'Why do I need Burley when I can fight Zivic', Zivic ofcourse got the worse of a 2 fight series with Burley. The only other black murderers row fighter Lamotta faced was former lightweight Holman Williams who was past it at 34 and 150+ fights into his career, many thought Williams beat Lamotta though in a close SD.

Lamottas best wins are over Robinson when SRR weighed 143lbs and Cerdan who was also an ex-Welter with an injured shoulder. Imagine if Pavlik beat a 143lb Mayweather, a 143lb Pacquaio or if Eubank/Benn beat a 143lb Whitaker

So yes I'd put Eubank/Benn up there with the likes of Lamotta who was a world class fighter but never the best of his time as he's often portrayed

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

If owens has access to the same training and nutrition as bolt does now there is every chance he would be quicker..

Bolt is something special, his leg to body ratio is something sick and he has the balance and power to manage that. With today's training/nutrition/drugs there is a chance Owens would be a top sprinter but bare in mind back then there wasnt as much competition in Owens time to get to the top. Owens still wouldnt get close to Bolt, the man is a freak

[J]

and owens wasnt a freak in his day?

For fucks sake the man won 4 gold medals for the first time unheard of.

NEARLY 80 YEARS AGO

really this takes the biscuit..... on achievement Bolt isnt fit to lace Owens boots. No roids either.

I dont agree at all.

LET SEE IF BOLTS RECORDS LAST 25-50 YEARS LIKE SOME OF OWENS DID.

Then you can judge.

bit from wikepedia

Owens' greatest achievement came in a span of 45 minutes on May 25, 1935 at the Big Ten meet in Ann Arbor, Michigan, where he set three world records and tied a fourth. He equaled the world record for the 100 yard (91 m) sprint (9.4 seconds) and set world records in the long jump (26 feet 8¼ inches (8.13 m), a world record that would last 25 years), 220 yard (201.2 m) sprint (20.7 seconds), and the 220 yard (201.2m) low hurdles (22.6 seconds to become the first person to break 23 seconds). In fact, in 2005 both NBC sports announcer Bob Costas and University of Central Florida professor of sports history Richard C. Crepeau chose this as the most impressive athletic achievement since 1850.[4]

[J]

which idiot put lamotta in the same sentence as Pavlik?

i dont need to say anything further.

Lamottas best wins are over Robinson when SRR weighed 143lbs and Cerdan who was also an ex-Welter with an injured shoulder. Imagine if Pavlik beat a 143lb Mayweather, a 143lb Pacquaio or if Eubank/Benn beat a 143lb Whitaker

it isnt thought is it, one belt fewer weight divisons, no such luxuries of a super this super that WBA super champ/ emeritus IBO WBU IBF W.A.N.K. belts etc etc etc in those days, THIS WAS THE NORM.....

[Adamj1987]

which idiot put lamotta in the same sentence as Pavlik?

i dont need to say anything further.

Lamottas best wins are over Robinson when SRR weighed 143lbs and Cerdan who was also an ex-Welter with an injured shoulder. Imagine if Pavlik beat a 143lb Mayweather, a 143lb Pacquaio or if Eubank/Benn beat a 143lb Whitaker

it isnt thought is it, one belt fewer weight divisons, no such luxuries of a super this super that WBA super champ/ emeritus IBO WBU IBF W.A.N.K. belts etc etc etc in those days, THIS WAS THE NORM.....

indeed the 40s50s and 60s were alot better for boxing

[J]

apprantly not lamotta was crap and jesse owens was slow and average.

fuckinell.

[gb]

apprantly not lamotta was crap and jesse owens was slow and average.

fuckinell.

Are you deliberately missing the point or just not the fizziest pop in the fridge?
Are you right or wrong about the whole 50-0 and beating Henry Armstrong business? Come on, answer the question.

[gb]

indeed the 40s50s and 60s were alot better for boxing

They were in the sense of guys really earning their shots and fighting much better opponents on their way up. I suppose a good modern day example would be someone like Humbero Soto who was something like 50-6 when he got his first real opportunity at a world title, as opposed to someone who has a padded 30-0 record and hasn't really fought anyone of note.

My point is that comparing LaMotta to Pavlik isn't really realistic. I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I would reckon that someone like LaMotta would probably be something like a Welterweight these days i.e he was probably the natural size of someone like Mosley as opposed to Pavlik. If we sort of extrapolate and say "well let's suppose he could benefit from today's nutrition, technological advances etc... and assume he's somewhere around 172 in the ring having weighed in at 160" then we're looking at a very hypothetical situation. This is the inherent problem with comparing guys who campaigned in the same division but 60 years apart. Essentially, we're making a P4P comparison rather than a true 'like-with-like' comparison.
I hope this clears up my point.

[gb]

I never said SRR wasnt giving away weight..... he did so in all of his early contests against la motta based on the fact he was a fuckin welterweight and lamotta was a middleweight einstein, I also never stated he was p4p champ when la motta beat him, the ...............However to compare Pavlik to la motta is ignorant in my opinion.

LaMotta was a middleweight Einstein? Did you miss a comma there?

[slapbangwhallop]

"mere shadows of their former selves"

That's what I think.

Eubank was undefeated when Collins fought him!

[oliverfennell]

Dem Oirish, dey tink dat Collins was great. But woiy was he defending his turtle vs Craig Cummings? Woi was his getting knocked down by Cummins?

I'm not sure you'll win many points with you aping of the Irish accent, but while I agree with yiou that Collins is overrated, pointing out the Cummings defence is disingenious when you consider many of Eubank's defences were piss-poor too (Storey, Schommer, Stretch, Amaral, several more), and even some of Benn's (Perez, Gent).

[DavidPayne]

I never said SRR wasnt giving away weight..... he did so in all of his early contests against la motta based on the fact he was a fuckin welterweight and lamotta was a middleweight einstein, I also never stated he was p4p champ when la motta beat him, the ...............However to compare Pavlik to la motta is ignorant in my opinion.

LaMotta was a middleweight Einstein? Did you miss a comma there?

Did someone compare Pavlik to LaMotta?

Dear me. LaMotta would have smashed Kelly to pieces.

Pavlik is over-rated based on victories over Taylor - beware Carl - and outlasting a puncher in Miranda.

LaMotta would have broken his heart. And style wise they're miles apart too.

[Autobarn]

anyway, collins was obviously very good. he didn't lose by much to kalambay and reggie johnson, excellent boxers both, away from home. i have no problem that his career paid off with wins over benn and eubank.

all i'm getting at is, collins' big wins weren't that memorable. he beat guys at the end but sadly he wasn't fit to fight when his own defining night was coming, vs calzaghe. i still think the reason he even won the turtle is because Eubank chronically wouldn't press his advantage. I really tink if Chris - who had knocked Collins flying - had pressed his advantage, and done the same vs Carl Thompson, then he'd have had a Hall of Fame worthy career.

i didn't mean to wind anyone up re Irishness. i think darren sutherland is going to be on heck of a good super middleweight, and have no doubt he'll be a world champion. bernard dunne made me a fan - he went from borenard to bernard - in one remarkable night.

re DOMESTIC fighters: with Eubank's speed and power, no way can I call him a domestic fighter. yes he had loads of crappy title defences, as bad as anyone's. for some reason he didn't fine tune his style and was just as concerned with posing as winning. he was bailed out on the scorecards too many times and didn't work out bad habits. he never really controlled his athletic attributes - he is like Nate Gray off the X-Men comic, perhaps didn't have skills to use his powers - and could have terrible accuracy. the benn 1 and watson 2 and thompson 1 & 2 fights were sensational and show what he could do.

i don't think i need to argue benn anymore.

so, benn and eubank were domestic fighters but calzaghe is a world class fighter? (not having a pop at joe). calzaghe was more world class than them?