BoxRec

dbflex wrote:

alexpaterson wrote:Definetly he didnt use his reach also I felt he didnt make the most of the countering opportunities as Cloud was open but he showed great heart and a good chin fair play to him for that

The Clinton of five years ago might have won that.

cloud is a raw prospect, and can't have really shown his best with a whole year between fights. but it's very impressive for him to have worn down gonzalez and woods at this very early stage in his career. i think his best is yet to come and that so long as his promoters get him busy, he can get better - how good, who knows? i don't like to think what clinton could have done once upon a time, but rather what cloud is capable of when fine tuned.

i would think it is hard for cloud to get ppl to face him. he doesn't seem to have any lucrative TV contract (HBO already seem to be wasting their time and money on Boresome Chad Dawson). It is probably only the IBF eliminators and the IBF title shots that can persuade ppl of Gonzalez's and Woods' calibre to get in there with such an unknown and dangerous fighter as Tavoris Cloud.

as to Cleverly. Well all I can say is, let's see it. I doubt he would get in with anyone of even fringe world class for anything less than a WBO eliminator. Isn't that what FW wanted to do, bring in Montell Griffin for an elim to face Erdei? Even though Griffin had one sidedly been beaten by a 7 fight prospect - Shumenov - who like Cloud is way ahead of young sideburns.

Autobarn wrote:

dbflex wrote:

alexpaterson wrote:Definetly he didnt use his reach also I felt he didnt make the most of the countering opportunities as Cloud was open but he showed great heart and a good chin fair play to him for that

The Clinton of five years ago might have won that.

cloud is a raw prospect, and can't have really shown his best with a whole year between fights. but it's very impressive for him to have worn down gonzalez and woods at this very early stage in his career. i think his best is yet to come and that so long as his promoters get him busy, he can get better - how good, who knows? i don't like to think what clinton could have done once upon a time, but rather what cloud is capable of when fine tuned.

i would think it is hard for cloud to get ppl to face him. he doesn't seem to have any lucrative TV contract (HBO already seem to be wasting their time and money on Boresome Chad Dawson). It is probably only the IBF eliminators and the IBF title shots that can persuade ppl of Gonzalez's and Woods' calibre to get in there with such an unknown and dangerous fighter as Tavoris Cloud.

as to Cleverly. Well all I can say is, let's see it. I doubt he would get in with anyone of even fringe world class for anything less than a WBO eliminator. Isn't that what FW wanted to do, bring in Montell Griffin for an elim to face Erdei? Even though Griffin had one sidedly been beaten by a 7 fight prospect - Shumenov - who like Cloud is way ahead of young sideburns.

"Young sideburns" is younger than both of them and should fight Silvio Branco for the EBU by the end of this yea. If he wins a world title before Feb 2011 (infinitely possible if he becomes EBU holder this year) he'll be just 23, four years younger than Cloud is now. Cloud may have been out for a year but the faults in his display weren't related to fitness or timing. He did not look technically very good or show much variety. These aren't things that will be improved by fighting regularly but by intense technical coaching. Shumenov lost to Campillo who is not much better than Branco., so let's see what happens with Cleverly and the Italian. Cleverly has all the tools but not the seasoning of Cloud; that's all that I would put down as an advantage to Cloud right now.

Shumenov narrowly lost a world title fight with only 7 or 8 fights under his belt - an apparently superb contest in which both men were down. To a guy who won his title away from home (Campillo). I don't agree with throwing fighters in too early, but Shumenov is ahead of Cleverly who has been in some shocking mismatches. And FW did say that he wanted to bring in Griffin - though nothing was heard since - for a WBO elim. Once Shumenov has a more sensible schedule, and learns at the right pace, he will be leagues ahead of a cautiously matched FW fighter.

Cleverly delivered vs Oakey and McIntish - fair play to him - but I'm not sure I share the optimism. Cleverly simply doesn't have the power. He has the speed, but his natural instinct seems to be to come forward and back the opponent up. if he can mix in some smart outside boxing - in and out - he might go far. but there doesn't seem to be too much impact in Clev's work & I question how far he can go.

As to Woods and Gonzalez being faded - boxing is about timing. Young fighter on way up beats up good fighters on way down. Cloud has Woods, Clev has late notice Oakey. Cloud just has to be kept busy and shorten his shots up. Look how well Glen Johnson did, with some well timed, well placed short punches, on Chad Dawson. Glen has half of Cloud's energy and fierceness.

Silvio Branco is fighting Jean Pascal for the WBC title. Pascal being a guy who came off a riveting loss to go on to win a world title. Shumenov could well do the same. You can learn in hard fights and defeats - preparing you for the next hard test. The way Clev has been matched with these weak Africans, we aren't exactly seeing the fierce learning curve, are we?

Autobarn wrote:Shumenov narrowly lost a world title fight with only 7 or 8 fights under his belt - an apparently superb contest in which both men were down. To a guy who won his title away from home (Campillo). I don't agree with throwing fighters in too early, but Shumenov is ahead of Cleverly who has been in some shocking mismatches. And FW did say that he wanted to bring in Griffin - though nothing was heard since - for a WBO elim. Once Shumenov has a more sensible schedule, and learns at the right pace, he will be leagues ahead of a cautiously matched FW fighter.

Cleverly delivered vs Oakey and McIntish - fair play to him - but I'm not sure I share the optimism. Cleverly simply doesn't have the power. He has the speed, but his natural instinct seems to be to come forward and back the opponent up. if he can mix in some smart outside boxing - in and out - he might go far. but there doesn't seem to be too much impact in Clev's work & I question how far he can go.

As to Woods and Gonzalez being faded - boxing is about timing. Young fighter on way up beats up good fighters on way down. Cloud has Woods, Clev has late notice Oakey. Cloud just has to be kept busy and shorten his shots up. Look how well Glen Johnson did, with some well timed, well placed short punches, on Chad Dawson. Glen has half of Cloud's energy and fierceness.

Silvio Branco is fighting Jean Pascal for the WBC title. Pascal being a guy who came off a riveting loss to go on to win a world title. Shumenov could well do the same. You can learn in hard fights and defeats - preparing you for the next hard test. The way Clev has been matched with these weak Africans, we aren't exactly seeing the fierce learning curve, are we?

Branco is firmly in the veteran stage of his career; his learning is virtually over. Shumenov has the advantage of having been a long-standing world-class amateur. Cleverly was a decent unpaid fighter but no Olympian like the Kazakh. So in reality their experience at world level is entirely different. It's not a fair comparison. Clev has power – very few hurt Oakey and McIntosh was down so many times, he still struggles to remain standing. The Africans were mismatches granted but was Joey Vegas, was British champion Tony Quigley? Clev fought beat both early in his career and has now cleaned up the domestic scene . For a Wazza fighter he has been matched quite tough – tougher than Brook, Mitchell, even Khan at a similar stage – which shows how highly they rate him. You don't have to share my optimism – it's all about opinions – but you can't knock him for things which are clearly untrue. Admittedly his overall record is 161-197-13 but almost half those defeats come from one fighter – the legendary Ernie Smith on Clev's debut. From 17 wins, Nathan has beaten three unbeaten fighters, stopped the durable Ayitey Powers quicker than anyone else and hasn't lost a round since Oakey. Protected? Not for me. Lacking power? The stats don't back that up. Unproven beyond domestic level? Yes but not for much longer.

It's a lot of fun this, it's called BoxRec pantomime.

Yank fighter: Oh yes he can, oh no he can't.

British prospect: Oh yes he can, oh not he can't.

I'm on about the learning curve of the likes of Shumenov (as well as Cloud, Cleverly). Not Branco. I was using Pascal (Branco's next opponent) as an example how someone can come off a tough competitive defeat and make improvement, to then win a world title. This could be relevant to Shumenov. The loss could enable him to make progress.

I doubt Cleverly will ever get the tests that Shumenov's been having, for instance. I also doubt he'll ever fight 2 top contenders ranked in the top 10 of the same organisation, in consecutive fights, as Cloud just has. If Clev ever wins a world title, I wonder how many top contenders he'll even fight, the way things can be over here dire mismatches?

Cloud had a slow burn career, is older than Clev, so I can see why it's not a fair comparison - and can understand your points. But ppl are comparing them, including yourself - so let's see Cleverly do it. Cloud did fight Jose Luis Herrera. Herrera did have a win over Jorge Castro, went on to KO cruiserweight prospect Aaron Williams and lost a good brawl to cruiser prospect Enad Licina. Cloud otherwise fought nobodies, but has made up for it in his last 2.

Autobarn wrote:It's a lot of fun this, it's called BoxRec pantomime.

Yank fighter: Oh yes he can, oh no he can't.

British prospect: Oh yes he can, oh not he can't.

I'm on about the learning curve of the likes of Shumenov (as well as Cloud, Cleverly). Not Branco. I was using Pascal (Branco's next opponent) as an example how someone can come off a tough competitive defeat and make improvement, to then win a world title. This could be relevant to Shumenov. The loss could enable him to make progress.

I doubt Cleverly will ever get the tests that Shumenov's been having, for instance. I also doubt he'll ever fight 2 top contenders ranked in the top 10 of the same organisation, in consecutive fights, as Cloud just has. If Clev ever wins a world title, I wonder how many top contenders he'll even fight, the way things can be over here dire mismatches?

Cloud had a slow burn career, is older than Clev, so I can see why it's not a fair comparison - and can understand your points. But ppl are comparing them, including yourself - so let's see Cleverly do it. Cloud did fight Jose Luis Herrera. Herrera did have a win over Jorge Castro, went on to KO cruiserweight prospect Aaron Williams and lost a good brawl to cruiser prospect Enad Licina. Cloud otherwise fought nobodies, but has made up for it in his last 2.

This debate is winding down... I'm gutted TBH! I agree and I think Cleverly will be at that level by next year, fighting maybe Branco and someone else in the WBC ratings in a row.

who knows. cleverly is making progress on the british scene, FW will get him the opportunities.

is Branco the EBU champ?

i wonder if it'll be hard to get him in the ring. especially if gets a pasting from pascal for the WBC strap. italians really seem to twat around at times, as with lynes vs t'other branco (the branco with the nice nose, not the branco with the nice legs)

dbflex wrote:Oakey, Vegas and McIntosh may be nobodies at world level but they are good domestic fighters. Had Cloud beaten anyone better pre Gonzalez? Had Bradley pre Witter? Big leaps in class can be made successfully if the ability and belief are there.

Sure, but for every Cloud and Bradley there are 10 times as many fighters who make that leap only to get found out.
And the worst cases among those are the ones who probably could have made it if they'd just been 'groomed' in a better manner rather than thrown to the lions.
I just don't see what the rush with Cleverley is given his youthfulness - let's see how he gets on at Euro level and the fringes of world class and then if he proves himself there, by all means he should step up to the highest level.

let's say Cleverly gets there.

How's he going to get the levels of support that Calzaghe got between the Lacy and RJJ fans?

Once upon a time it was good to be a Welsh fighter.

I think the best fight for Cloud would be Jean Pascal and what a fight it would be 2 young, strong, go forward fighters I see Cloud winning with fitness and Power to win a close UD

alexpaterson wrote:I think the best fight for Cloud would be Jean Pascal and what a fight it would be 2 young, strong, go forward fighters I see Cloud winning with fitness and Power to win a close UD

That would be a great fight on paper. Couldn't make a call though as I don't feel I've seen enough of either fighter - didn't see Pascal's light-heavy win for example.

Cloud v Diaconu. That would be an insane war.

I'd like to see Cloud a) work on that jab and b) keep working on shortening those hooks. He's had 2 long fights v durable ex title holders (Woods and Gonzalez) which will have done him great.

Would be good to see Cloud defend vs strong types (Chris Henry) and tricky types (loads of these at light heavy, loads of ugly shifty fighters, southpaws etc.