BoxRec

WildWaylon wrote:David and Golioth, a step too far, and quite a rediculous scenaria. Its not worthy of discussion.

Roy Jones - a former Light Middleweight - pulled it off against John Ruiz D

FLINT ISLAND wrote:

WildWaylon wrote:David and Golioth, a step too far, and quite a rediculous scenaria. Its not worthy of discussion.

Roy Jones - a former Light Middleweight - pulled it off against John Ruiz D

Yes, but Jones was moving up from 175 - and weighed in at around 198 - also, Roy Jones was an exceptional physical specimen - oh and Ruiz was pretty poor deffo one of the worst heavyweight champions in history.

Pavlik though not spectacular himself, is a decent middleweight champ, as his two victories over Taylor proved.

Jones was never a natural 175LB - he moved up there because he was bored at Super Middleweight and wanted new challenges and achievements.

He started off at Light Middleweight around the time of turning pro.

And won Middleweight and Super Middleweight and Light Heavyweight titles.

Before the jump up to Heavyweight.

But I will say it once again - Jones was never even a natural Light Heavyweight.

How would Pacquaio fare against Enzo Maccarinelli?

I don't give a fcuk how fast Pacquiao, if Pavlik landed a jab on the guy, he would be in trouble!

Ring magazine, are you for real or what? Bad day at the office me thinks!

I'm surprised as well that they think Pavlik will be Middleweight champion in what are they saying, 4 fights for Pac, so 2 years?
I don't think he'll be champion come January 1st.

pavlik would be a size to far for pac but then pavlik could well pull out

Well Jones moved through 46 lbs in his career. 154-200

Pacquaio started at light flyweight which is 106 and middleweight is 160 which is 54 lbs.

Roy Just about pulled it off against a very poor heavyweight champion, who was picked for his sloth and low punch output, as well as his poor technique, and had a very favourable refere in Joe Cortez I believe, who never let Ruiz get hold of Roy and clinch.

Pavlik isn't a spoiler, he is aggressive, hard hitting and fearless, and also loves a tear up, a bad combination for Manny.

FLINT ISLAND wrote:Jones was never a natural 175LB - he moved up there because he was bored at Super Middleweight and wanted new challenges and achievements.

He started off at Light Middleweight around the time of turning pro.

And won Middleweight and Super Middleweight and Light Heavyweight titles.

Before the jump up to Heavyweight.

But I will say it once again - Jones was never even a natural Light Heavyweight.

oh come on. he weighed almost 175 pounds the night he beat bernard hopkins at middleweight. he was a massive middleweight, and while he wasn't necessarily a big light heavyweight, he spent the bulk of his career at world level at 175.

Autobarn wrote:

FLINT ISLAND wrote:Jones was never a natural 175LB - he moved up there because he was bored at Super Middleweight and wanted new challenges and achievements.

He started off at Light Middleweight around the time of turning pro.

And won Middleweight and Super Middleweight and Light Heavyweight titles.

Before the jump up to Heavyweight.

But I will say it once again - Jones was never even a natural Light Heavyweight.

oh come on. he weighed almost 175 pounds the night he beat bernard hopkins at middleweight. he was a massive middleweight, and while he wasn't necessarily a big light heavyweight, he spent the bulk of his career at world level at 175.

Flint is right about Jones, although I think he put it in the wrong words. Jones would regularly weigh in at 172 or 173 when he was at light heavyweight, which is a clear indication, i think, of someone who made the weight very easily. I think though a better way to put it would be to say that he was a natural light heavyweight, as opposed to most modern fighters who unnatrually boil down to get down to weight and are massive compared to their predecessors.

Meantime, the important thing to consider here isn't the total weight Pacquiao would have gained from his first fight through to a hypothetical middleweight fight compared to the total weight Jones gained from his first fight through to his foray into the heavyweight division, but the percentage bodyweight they gained.

Jones gained about a third of his bodyweight over his career, Pacquiao would have to have gained
about 50 (by my rudimentary calculations). And for Jones, on his frame, to gain 30 percent body weight is much easier than for Pacquaio, on his narrow shouldered, thin waisted 5 feet 6 or 7 inch tall frame.

That's the difference.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Well Jones moved through 46 lbs in his career. 154-200

Pacquaio started at light flyweight which is 106 and middleweight is 160 which is 54 lbs.

Roy Just about pulled it off against a very poor heavyweight champion, who was picked for his sloth and low punch output, as well as his poor technique, and had a very favourable refere in Joe Cortez I believe, who never let Ruiz get hold of Roy and clinch.

OK, that's twice in this thread now. Can you stop talking about John Ruiz like that when David Payne could read it. If you don't, Payne is likely to come at you like a spider monkey.

whatashambles wrote:I'm surprised as well that they think Pavlik will be Middleweight champion in what are they saying, 4 fights for Pac, so 2 years?
I don't think he'll be champion come January 1st.

Not to mention Manny would have to come through the likes of Floyd Mayweather first.

Thats if Mayweather dosent shit himself - and run from the fight.

BroughtonRulesRefuge wrote:

danieljenkins wrote:clottey and williams would both ko manny at welter so imagen would pavlik would do

- Manny and Williams are p4p class master boxers.

Clottey is a crude headbutting dirt clod and doesn't belong in the same sentence.

clottey would win by his size hes a massaive welter and manny would be to small
of corse i think mannys a much better fighter

FLINT ISLAND wrote:

whatashambles wrote:I'm surprised as well that they think Pavlik will be Middleweight champion in what are they saying, 4 fights for Pac, so 2 years?
I don't think he'll be champion come January 1st.

Not to mention Manny would have to come through the likes of Floyd Mayweather first.

Thats if Mayweather dosent poop himself - and run from the fight.

please tell me why mayweather would be scared of manny ?

Carbo wrote:

Autobarn wrote:

FLINT ISLAND wrote:Jones was never a natural 175LB - he moved up there because he was bored at Super Middleweight and wanted new challenges and achievements.

He started off at Light Middleweight around the time of turning pro.

And won Middleweight and Super Middleweight and Light Heavyweight titles.

Before the jump up to Heavyweight.

But I will say it once again - Jones was never even a natural Light Heavyweight.

oh come on. he weighed almost 175 pounds the night he beat bernard hopkins at middleweight. he was a massive middleweight, and while he wasn't necessarily a big light heavyweight, he spent the bulk of his career at world level at 175.

Flint is right about Jones, although I think he put it in the wrong words. Jones would regularly weigh in at 172 or 173 when he was at light heavyweight, which is a clear indication, i think, of someone who made the weight very easily. I think though a better way to put it would be to say that he was a natural light heavyweight, as opposed to most modern fighters who unnatrually boil down to get down to weight and are massive compared to their predecessors.

Meantime, the important thing to consider here isn't the total weight Pacquiao would have gained from his first fight through to a hypothetical middleweight fight compared to the total weight Jones gained from his first fight through to his foray into the heavyweight division, but the percentage bodyweight they gained.

Jones gained about a third of his bodyweight over his career, Pacquiao would have to have gained
about 50 (by my rudimentary calculations). And for Jones, on his frame, to gain 30 percent body weight is much easier than for Pacquaio, on his narrow shouldered, thin waisted 5 feet 6 or 7 inch tall frame.

That's the difference.

Excellent points - Jones had to kill himself to make 160, and was extremely powerful and hard hitting at 168, he was destroying people at super middle, and to be honest, I think at 175 he just didn't have to cut weight to get there. He wasn't a huge light heavy, but he wasn't exactly dwarfed by his opponents.

While i'm not willing to entertain the idea of Pac vs Pavlik, there is a slightly interesting side to it. Tecnically, Paul Williams still fights at Welter. If Manny beats Cotto, potentially, Williams is a possible oppoent. Williams has been touted as a possible Pavlik opponent. Althought very unlikely to happen, what if Pac fought Williams and won?!

All i'm saying is it's not as far fetched an idea as it first seems.

er, what am I saying??? it's rediculous!!! Pac started his career at Flyweight ffs!!!! lol

danieljenkins wrote:

FLINT ISLAND wrote:

whatashambles wrote:I'm surprised as well that they think Pavlik will be Middleweight champion in what are they saying, 4 fights for Pac, so 2 years?
I don't think he'll be champion come January 1st.

Not to mention Manny would have to come through the likes of Floyd Mayweather first.

Thats if Mayweather dosent poop himself - and run from the fight.

please tell me why mayweather would be scared of manny ?

After seeing how much more impressively Manny destroyed Oscar De La Hoya and Ricky Hatton.

I dont think he will fancy a danger man like Manny.

Mayweather will avoid danger men like Paul Williams so he will probaly avoid Manny too. - he may fight him in the end due to public demand and the almighty $$$$$$$$$ which he loves - but he dont fancy the fight - I'm sure. I think Mayweather would beat Manny but he dont like the risk the fight poses.

Carbo wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Well Jones moved through 46 lbs in his career. 154-200

Pacquaio started at light flyweight which is 106 and middleweight is 160 which is 54 lbs.

Roy Just about pulled it off against a very poor heavyweight champion, who was picked for his sloth and low punch output, as well as his poor technique, and had a very favourable refere in Joe Cortez I believe, who never let Ruiz get hold of Roy and clinch.

OK, that's twice in this thread now. Can you stop talking about John Ruiz like that when David Payne could read it. If you don't, Payne is likely to come at you like a spider monkey.

John and I have just finished watching the first series of Love Boat, did we miss something?

danieljenkins wrote:

FLINT ISLAND wrote:

whatashambles wrote:I'm surprised as well that they think Pavlik will be Middleweight champion in what are they saying, 4 fights for Pac, so 2 years?
I don't think he'll be champion come January 1st.

Not to mention Manny would have to come through the likes of Floyd Mayweather first.

Thats if Mayweather dosent poop himself - and run from the fight.

please tell me why mayweather would be scared of manny ?

Interesting question.

If Pacquaio beats Cotto, let's see how aggressively Floyd Jr pursues a fight with the Pacman, shall we?

Clue: saying, "Sure, I want the fight. I wanna whup that crackerjack muthafukker infronna all'y'all so y'all know that Money's number one," but then demanding a trillion dollars, for the fight to take place in a 100 foot by 100 foot ring in Grand Rapids, and for Manny to wear 18oz gloves doesn't count as wanting to make the fight.

?[/quote]
Interesting question.

If Pacquaio beats Cotto, let's see how aggressively Floyd Jr pursues a fight with the Pacman, shall we?

Clue: saying, "Sure, I want the fight. I wanna whup that crackerjack muthafukker infronna all'y'all so y'all know that Money's number one," but then demanding a trillion dollars, for the fight to take place in a 100 foot by 100 foot ring in Grand Rapids, and for Manny to wear 18oz gloves doesn't count as wanting to make the fight.[/quote]

If Pacman beats Cotto, I've no doubt that Mayweather will want the fight will be made. It will be an absolutely humungous fight, in fact, I think it has the potential to be one of the biggest fights of all time financially. Manny has insane support in his home country, and it would be the biggest and most significant showdown for my money since Leonard fought Thomas Hearns at Welterweight - although, it's probably more like Leonard v Duran.

The networks can sell that fight no trouble - a fight to determine who is the true P4P king of boxing is not exactly a hard sell, three months of promotion on 24/7, and this could do absolutely insane buys on TV.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

carbo wrote: Interesting question.

If Pacquaio beats Cotto, let's see how aggressively Floyd Jr pursues a fight with the Pacman, shall we?

Clue: saying, "Sure, I want the fight. I wanna whup that crackerjack muthafukker infronna all'y'all so y'all know that Money's number one," but then demanding a trillion dollars, for the fight to take place in a 100 foot by 100 foot ring in Grand Rapids, and for Manny to wear 18oz gloves doesn't count as wanting to make the fight.

If Pacman beats Cotto, I've no doubt that Mayweather will want the fight will be made. It will be an absolutely humungous fight, in fact, I think it has the potential to be one of the biggest fights of all time financially. Manny has insane support in his home country, and it would be the biggest and most significant showdown for my money since Leonard fought Thomas Hearns at Welterweight - although, it's probably more like Leonard v Duran.

The networks can sell that fight no trouble - a fight to determine who is the true P4P king of boxing is not exactly a hard sell, three months of promotion on 24/7, and this could do absolutely insane buys on TV.

Sorry, you're talking logically here.

Mayweather will make it hard. He's the kind of fighter who'd rather take UDS8 mn for fighting, say, Andre Berto, than USD18 mn for fighting Paul Williams

He'll want a staggering amount of money; he'll want the biggest slice of the money; he'll say that he doesn't want Arum involved in the promotion.

Also, he really has been a no risk fighter in the last few years. the only fight in which he was remotely close to having a glimmer of a chance of losing was Dela Hoya. And even in that he was big favourite. All the other fights he was clearly ordained as winner a long time before first bell. Against PAcquaio, at 145 or 144, he wouldn't be.

That tells me that he'll make a fuss.

You just see how long negotiations take for that, should both men come out with the Ws.

Carbo wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

carbo wrote: Interesting question.

If Pacquaio beats Cotto, let's see how aggressively Floyd Jr pursues a fight with the Pacman, shall we?

Clue: saying, "Sure, I want the fight. I wanna whup that crackerjack muthafukker infronna all'y'all so y'all know that Money's number one," but then demanding a trillion dollars, for the fight to take place in a 100 foot by 100 foot ring in Grand Rapids, and for Manny to wear 18oz gloves doesn't count as wanting to make the fight.

If Pacman beats Cotto, I've no doubt that Mayweather will want the fight will be made. It will be an absolutely humungous fight, in fact, I think it has the potential to be one of the biggest fights of all time financially. Manny has insane support in his home country, and it would be the biggest and most significant showdown for my money since Leonard fought Thomas Hearns at Welterweight - although, it's probably more like Leonard v Duran.

The networks can sell that fight no trouble - a fight to determine who is the true P4P king of boxing is not exactly a hard sell, three months of promotion on 24/7, and this could do absolutely insane buys on TV.

Sorry, you're talking logically here.

Mayweather will make it hard. He's the kind of fighter who'd rather take UDS8 mn for fighting, say, Andre Berto, than USD18 mn for fighting Paul Williams
He'll want a staggering amount of money; he'll want the biggest slice of the money; he'll say that he doesn't want Arum involved in the promotion.

Also, he really has been a no risk fighter in the last few years. the only fight in which he was remotely close to having a glimmer of a chance of losing was Dela Hoya. And even in that he was big favourite. All the other fights he was clearly ordained as winner a long time before first bell. Against PAcquaio, at 145 or 144, he wouldn't be.

That tells me that he'll make a fuss.

You just see how long negotiations take for that, should both men come out with the Ws.

Agree 100%

He has said in his inteview recently as well he has proven everything already and is only coming back to "steal" some more easy money.

Mayweather to me is not the greatest - Oscar would have beaten him if he was 18 months to 2 years younger - Oscar tried his best and made a big effort but by that stage the spark had gone form Oscar.

Mayweather dont want to take tough dangerous fights.

He just wants excessive amounts of money for the fights he is comfrotable that he will win - and still shout he is the top pound for pound king without fighting the real dangerous challengers we want to see him prove himself against like

Paul Williams
Manny Pacquaio
Miguel Cotto
Shane Mosely

If he fights any of the above in the next 12 months I will be surprised

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Well Jones moved through 46 lbs in his career. 154-200

Pacquaio started at light flyweight which is 106 and middleweight is 160 which is 54 lbs.

Roy Just about pulled it off against a very poor heavyweight champion, who was picked for his sloth and low punch output, as well as his poor technique, and had a very favourable refere in Joe Cortez I believe, who never let Ruiz get hold of Roy and clinch.

Pavlik isn't a spoiler, he is aggressive, hard hitting and fearless, and also loves a tear up, a bad combination for Manny.

The only problem with what you said was about Ruiz not being allowed to hold.

While I think Cortez is a sorry excuse for a elite referee, I don't think he changed the fight at all that night. Jones didn't allow Ruiz to hold him. It was just his fighting style and footspeed. Not Cortez.

If Pacquaio beats Cotto, let's see how aggressively Floyd Jr pursues a fight with the Pacman, shall we?

Clue: saying, "Sure, I want the fight. I wanna whup that crackerjack muthafukker infronna all'y'all so y'all know that Money's number one," but then demanding a trillion dollars, for the fight to take place in a 100 foot by 100 foot ring in Grand Rapids, and for Manny to wear 18oz gloves doesn't count as wanting to make the fight.[/quote]

If Pacman beats Cotto, I've no doubt that Mayweather will want the fight will be made. It will be an absolutely humungous fight, in fact, I think it has the potential to be one of the biggest fights of all time financially. Manny has insane support in his home country, and it would be the biggest and most significant showdown for my money since Leonard fought Thomas Hearns at Welterweight - although, it's probably more like Leonard v Duran.

The networks can sell that fight no trouble - a fight to determine who is the true P4P king of boxing is not exactly a hard sell, three months of promotion on 24/7, and this could do absolutely insane buys on TV.[/quote]
Sorry, you're talking logically here.

Mayweather will make it hard. He's the kind of fighter who'd rather take UDS8 mn for fighting, say, Andre Berto, than USD18 mn for fighting Paul Williams
He'll want a staggering amount of money; he'll want the biggest slice of the money; he'll say that he doesn't want Arum involved in the promotion.

Also, he really has been a no risk fighter in the last few years. the only fight in which he was remotely close to having a glimmer of a chance of losing was Dela Hoya. And even in that he was big favourite. All the other fights he was clearly ordained as winner a long time before first bell. Against PAcquaio, at 145 or 144, he wouldn't be.

That tells me that he'll make a fuss.

You just see how long negotiations take for that, should both men come out with the Ws.[/quote]

Agree 100%

He has said in his inteview recently as well he has proven everything already and is only coming back to "steal" some more easy money.

Mayweather to me is not the greatest - Oscar would have beaten him if he was 18 months to 2 years younger - Oscar tried his best and made a big effort but by that stage the spark had gone form Oscar.

Mayweather dont want to take tough dangerous fights.

He just wants excessive amounts of money for the fights he is comfrotable that he will win - and still shout he is the top pound for pound king without fighting the real dangerous challengers we want to see him prove himself against like

Paul Williams
Manny Pacquaio
Miguel Cotto
Shane Mosely

If he fights any of the above in the next 12 months I will be surprised[/quote]

Fair points I suppose.

However, it's his loss, at the end of the day, if Manny beats Cotto, he will become arguably the greatest fighter of his generation - for all Mayweathers skills, Pacman's drive and hunger to prove himself will have eclipsed anything Mayweather can lay claim to.

Mayweather hasn't taken on the biggest dangermen of his own division since Castillo. You could argue Oscar I guess, but Oscar never proved himself the real best at 154.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Fair points I suppose.

However, it's his loss, at the end of the day, if Manny beats Cotto, he will become arguably the greatest fighter of his generation - for all Mayweathers skills, Pacman's drive and hunger to prove himself will have eclipsed anything Mayweather can lay claim to.

Mayweather hasn't taken on the biggest dangermen of his own division since Castillo. You could argue Oscar I guess, but Oscar never proved himself the real best at 154.

Excellent point, James. Pacquiao had the drive and hunger to take risks. The last time Mayweather was in a fight which was as risky as Pacquaio's against Cotto was when he fought Castillo -- and even in that he was strong favourite.

It's funny, because from what I've seen, Mayweather trains like a devil. He's got real drive, which is rare when you can always fall back on wicked skills (James Toney, Sweet Pea, Duran) and know you've already hit the top.

Yet it's like his matchmaking has followed his in ring style and become increasingly devoid of risk appetite.

I can't blame him for this, because boxing's a dangerous sport and he deserves to be able to run his career the way he wants: more power to him if he can make big bucks risk free. But it does affect his legacy, and if he wants to be remembered as a true all time great who transcends his own era, he needs to at least take the entrance exam, and that involves, as a minimum, the winner of Pacquaio -- Cotto and either Mosley or Williams.