Sonny Liston - Muhammad Ali (1) - The Scoring Thread

[I Feel Fine]

I've never heard anyone give any credence to the idea that Liston actually hurt his shoulder,at least not as severely as he claimed he did, and most seem to regard it as an excuse. As buzz pointed out, he was using the left arm just fine before the fight ended, compare that to Holyfield when his shoulder bothered him. If it isn't just an excuse then perhaps someone can provide some evidence that Liston really did hurt his shoulder, but I don't see the need to start the insults. It doesn't make any difference to me if Liston really did quit on his shoulder or not, but it has always been my impression that it was not as serious as he suggested after the fight.

[Collins2000]

Collins, you'd count the opinion of Ali regarding the extent of Liston's injury? Why?

I believe, being the one actually fighting Liston, he would be able to detect any weakness and also be able to gauge to some degree the extent of it.

That's all.

[dempseyfire]

I've never heard anyone give any credence to the idea that Liston actually hurt his shoulder,at least not as severely as he claimed he did, and most seem to regard it as an excuse. As buzz pointed out, he was using the left arm just fine before the fight ended, compare that to Holyfield when his shoulder bothered him. If it isn't just an excuse then perhaps someone can provide some evidence that Liston really did hurt his shoulder, but I don't see the need to start the insults. It doesn't make any difference to me if Liston really did quit on his shoulder or not, but it has always been my impression that it was not as serious as he suggested after the fight.

Who is 'most'? . . .that's the thing, those who were actually there and the post-fight doctor's reports all confirmed a tear. Liston in the 6th is also not snapping the jab at all like he usually did. I hate to be all 'granberrish' but really the whole 'it was just an excuse' thing is stuff put out there by Ali biographers and revisionist historians who bring nothing to the table except their own biases.

http://www.antekprizering.com/liston4981.html


There is also a Times artle by Rob Lipsyte published the day after the fight in which a team of physicians came in and confirmed Dr. Robert Bennet's diagnosis of a bicep tear by Liston.

[I Feel Fine]

Again, that was just my impression, I wasn't claiming any inside information. Boxers always make excuses for why they lost, as you should know.
Thank you for bringing this to light, would have been nice if you had done so when certain people were claiming that Liston "threw" the fight. Don't strain yourself.

[yancey]

I've never heard anyone give any credence to the idea that Liston actually hurt his shoulder,at least not as severely as he claimed he did, and most seem to regard it as an excuse. As buzz pointed out, he was using the left arm just fine before the fight ended, compare that to Holyfield when his shoulder bothered him. If it isn't just an excuse then perhaps someone can provide some evidence that Liston really did hurt his shoulder, but I don't see the need to start the insults. It doesn't make any difference to me if Liston really did quit on his shoulder or not, but it has always been my impression that it was not as serious as he suggested after the fight.

Who is 'most'? . . .that's the thing, those who were actually there and the post-fight doctor's reports all confirmed a tear. Liston in the 6th is also not snapping the jab at all like he usually did. I hate to be all 'granberrish' but really the whole 'it was just an excuse' thing is stuff put out there by Ali biographers and revisionist historians who bring nothing to the table except their own biases.

http://www.antekprizering.com/liston4981.html


There is also a Times artle by Rob Lipsyte published the day after the fight in which a team of physicians came in and confirmed Dr. Robert Bennet's diagnosis of a bicep tear by Liston.

The legitimacy of Liston's shoulder injury has always been accepted, to my knowledge.

[BoxBuzz]

Well Liston was tough, and I thought he was snappin that left just fine in the last round. So both could be true, He probably just sucked it up and he used that left well until he'd had enough.

Sounds like some folks here see some diminishing use of the left at some point....I'll go back and try to find it. Maybe it's just so good that even when dissipated it still seems sound.

[Robinson]

Round 1

Ali 10-9

Round 2

Liston 10-9

[Robinson]

Round 3

Liston 10-9
Close.......

Round 4

Ali 10-9

Round 5

Liston 10-9
the famous, Liston had bad stuff on his gloves round....

[Robinson]

Round 6

Ali 10-9

And then as we all know the fight ends before the 7th begins.
Poor Sonny :(

[Collins2000]

Any signs of it being, in the words of granberry, an "obvious fake"?

[BoxBuzz]

Maybe they used fake liniment?

[Robinson]

No way would I call this a fake. Liston looked to me
like he wanted to win this.

[yancey]

No way would I call this a fake. Liston looked to me
like he wanted to win this.

I've always thought the first Liston-Ali fight was legit, but that Sonny was pretty spooked in that fight as he was convinced he was fighting a total nut job in Ali. (I'm sure most of you know about the bizarre scene at the weigh-in that day, though Dundee claimed it was all faked) A tough guy can very often be thrown way off if he feels he is dealing with someone crazy. All rules of the game go out the window in that situation.

Not to change the topic, but the 2nd fight was a complete dump job. Liston had serious death threats from the same factions that had gunned down Malcolm X just three months before in February, 1965. Poor Sonny had tears in his eyes when Floyd Patterson came by to visit him after the fight. Must have been real tough laying on the canvas looking up at a clown.

p.s. Before Curly gets his panties all in a wad, I do feel that Ali most likely would have won at Lewiston in any event. Sonny was primed for maximum effort at Boston in '64, not Lewiston in '65.

But that "knockout punch" was a freakin' hoot.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I have a difficult time accepting Liston feared Ali. I just don't see it. For whatever reason, he was beaten that night, but I don't think Ali got inside his head as much as the likes of Sugar & Hauser have, at times, been at pains to point out.

[Robinson]

I do not think Liston feared him at all either. Liston was past his
best years, he was out classed for the most part by Ali. He most
likely realised this. After 1965 he seemed to be fighting to pay the
bills and this is why he fought the competition he did. Not because
he was being ducked by the top guys...heck their were some near
top guys Chuvalo, Bonavena, etc who would have loved to tested
themselves against an aged Liston.

When Liston did face a top contender, albeit late. He was stopped.

I do not doubt that Liston had shoulder pains, he used the left alot
and sports med at that time was most likely not that exceptional
nor well understood. RSI is RSI regardless of the era. And fighters
do get aches and pains and wear and tear.
He most likely felt less than his best and wanted
to be some where else that night and used the pain as a reason
to quit. In any case, it is his just decision to make.

[dempseyfire]

I do not think Liston feared him at all either. Liston was past his
best years, he was out classed for the most part by Ali. He most
likely realised this. After 1965 he seemed to be fighting to pay the
bills and this is why he fought the competition he did. Not because
he was being ducked by the top guys...heck their were some near
top guys Chuvalo, Bonavena, etc who would have loved to tested
themselves against an aged Liston.

When Liston did face a top contender, albeit late. He was stopped.

I do not doubt that Liston had shoulder pains, he used the left alot
and sports med at that time was most likely not that exceptional
nor well understood. RSI is RSI regardless of the era. And fighters
do get aches and pains and wear and tear.
He most likely felt less than his best and wanted
to be some where else that night and used the pain as a reason
to quit. In any case, it is his just decision to make.

Liston's cornerman Willie Reddish and advisor Jack Nilon stopped the fight, not Liston. From the Syracuse Post: "Liston said he wanted to continue but was overruled by his trainer, Willie Reddish, and Nilon. "I wanted to come out anyway," Liston said. "Losing the title was like the day the president got shot."


Sonny gets unfairly snubbed for this fight and I'm trying to set the record straight.

To IFF: The only people claiming the first fight was a fix are the usual crazies around here who should be ignored anyway.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I do recall the commentary on an old VHS tape running along the lines of "...After this round, Liston's corner will call the Doctor to the ring, &, over the champion's protest, stop the fight..." but it's difficult to see what is actually transpiring in the corner.

[BoxBuzz]

bump. I always thought this was a very interesting thread.

[BoxBuzz]

I got a PM asking why I refer to Ali as "Clay" in my scoring.

At that moment in time, that was his name. I mean no disrespect, but am paying attention to his life's chronology. He was Cassius Clay up to and until the moment he announced he had changed his name. Which if I recall was later that day.

I always use Ali's names specifically appropriate for the time lines involved.

[ThatOne]

According to Liston he feared Ali because he thought Ali was crazy; i.e. unbalanced, nuts, a lunatic.

He specifically said he didn't get up in the second fight because he was afraid Ali would hit him when he was getting up. He said to get up would have required him to put at least one arm on the mat and that would leave him vulnerable if Ali tried to hit him.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I always had a hard time believing Liston bought Ali's act & really thought him to be crazy, & thus feared him. A hardened bloke like that, having seen what he's seen in life, from day dot to the present, getting fooled by that?

I don't buy it. I just find it ludicrously far-fetched Liston could be deceived by what I've seen from Ali's performances, given his life experiences.

[BoxBuzz]

I always had a hard time believing Liston bought Ali's act & really thought him to be crazy, & thus feared him. A hardened bloke like that, having seen what he's seen in life, from day dot to the present, getting fooled by that?

I don't buy it. I just find it ludicrously far-fetched Liston could be deceived by what I've seen from Ali's performances, given his life experiences.

Agreed, I think Liston was fully mentaly charged up to deliver a "first class old Fashioned Joe Frazier style whuppin" on Clay. But Sonny was not the guy who could do it at that time. That would be left to another at a different place and time.