BoxRec

DavidPayne wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

tonyevs wrote:Of course Nick Griffin took a hammering last night. That was always the plan wasn’t it?

I agree that Griffin isn’t the brightest of people, he certainly isn’t the skilled politician that Jack Straw is.
Griffin tied himself in knots when cornered - where as Jack Straw evaded the original question on immigration with practiced ease, as did the Muslim lady conservative representative when asked about her views on homosexuals.

Sure the BNP are relying heavily on ignorance to better their position. But the Muslim lady herself said immigration was a serious problem in this country. Fact is not all immigrants are black. I’d guess that most coming in are white. Colour of skin is a bit of a red herring in this debate I honestly think.

As for Griffin finding the sight of two men kissing `a little creepy` … those are his opinions.
Much the same as some people would find somebody with tattoos over their hands, face, head and body piercing hanging from their nose, ears, lips, forehead, eyebrows ` a little creepy` .. Because I do too.

Nick Griffin was made to look a bit of a plum last night for sure. But at the same time you had to admit he was a lot braver than our other political party leaders to put himself in the position he did last night. When have any of the other party leaders ever gone head to head with their counterparts and took part in a live tv political debate on policy(outside of the commons of course)? I don’t think they ever have have they?

What are you waffling on about - question time is a forum for discussing policy. That's the whole purpose of the show. It's been running for what, 20 years now?

Is commenting on gay men being creepy really what a politician should be concerning themselves with. What people do with their genitalia is really the least of our concerns at this moment in time.

griffin is not brave, if he was brave he would come clean about his holocaust denying and his beliefs in racial purity, instead of trying to disguise the BNP as a serious political party, rather than the right wing hate platform it is.

He's gotten people talking aboiut politics though. WHich is a good thing in these times of apathy. I'm not sure whether last night further legitimised the BNP or diluted them. If you follow. Is it more acceptable to vote for them now they've had this forum? Or does the exposure of the stupidity of the policy and leadership counter balance it? The harsh reality is most people are racist to some degree or another, its part of the survival instinct. In troubled economic times BNP scratch at that itch. Adn with the major parties offering a middle ground, wishy washy, try not to say anything wrong rather than actually say soemthing, then a mroe radical view catches the attention.

They may attract a few more morons to their cause, but I don't for a minute believe that Griffin's bumbling ill-educated rantings are going to have garnered much support.

Really? He's front page news on the Daily Mein Kapf, Sun, Telegraph - there is plenty of potential support among that lot.

DavidPayne wrote:Really? He's front page news on the Daily Mein Kapf, Sun, Telegraph - there is plenty of potential support among that lot.

yes, and all of them are carrying stories about how ineffectual he was, and how he was ripped to shreds in a public debate - really positive stuff.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: What are you waffling on about - question time is a forum for discussing policy. That's the whole purpose of the show. It's been running for what, 20 years now?[]

And when was the last time two of the leading leaders of the leading parties took part together?]

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Is commenting on gay men being creepy really what a politician should be concerning themselves with. What people do with their genitalia is really the least of our concerns at this moment in time. .

It really has little concern on politics to be honest. But it seems to be the most picked up part of the program doesn`t it?.

jamesmcdonnell wrote: griffin is not brave, if he was brave he would come clean about his holocaust denying and his beliefs in racial purity, instead of trying to disguise the BNP as a serious political party, rather than the right wing hate platform it is.

They are an elected party. That makes them a very serious political party .. sadly.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

DavidPayne wrote:Really? He's front page news on the Daily Mein Kapf, Sun, Telegraph - there is plenty of potential support among that lot.

yes, and all of them are carrying stories about how ineffectual he was, and how he was ripped to shreds in a public debate - really positive stuff.

To my mind it wont matter. I'll venture the BNP will get its largest number of votes ever in the next election.

They may be ridiculed, but they're not in the shadows any more.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Wax On wrote:I actually think some of the BNP's policies would be huge vote winners if one of the mainstream parties adopted them.

It wouldn't suprise me at all to see a party win and election in this country based around a zero tolerance approach to immigration and crime, with things like national service thrown into the mix.

Some of that certainly seems to go down well in Australia.

I agree that it's uncomfortable to admit you actually agree with some of the guy's comments, that's because he's clearly a racist bigot, but still, I think if someone a bit more liberal and mainstream took a sensible approach to tackling some of the BNP's more workable policies I'm conbinced they would be huge vote winners.

I'm not talking about any of the hating: racism, homophobia etc here, just to clarify.

Yes, let's imagine that we had a repatriation policy for a moment - we would overnight become international pariah's, would be in breach of EU employment law, and we'd have countless thousands of jobs with nobody to do them.

Immigrants who come to this country, by and large, endure horrific working and living conditions to try and make a better life. For every nigerian dole-scammer, there's a thousand people working for minimum wage.

Totally agree. I was just saying that there is no denying it could be a huge vote winner. Sadly the BNP are making politics more mainstream again, in that they are awakening the interest of every Sun reader out there. All I was saying (and don't confuse this with me agreeing with any of their policies) is that if a mainstream party adopted some of these themes they could make themselves very electable in the current climate of high unemployment and huge levels of dissatisfaction with the way the country handles immigration, law and order etc

I watched Question Time last night and Nick Griffin took a verbal hammering. He came across as a clown who tried to back track his way out of stuff he'd said before, and was easy bait for the professional politicians and Bonnie Greer. Hopefully we will hear a lot less of Griffin and the BNP in future

Immigration, like anything else, is managed by the market.

We dont need to impose sanctions, just motivate the percentage of society nurtured in a world of benefit funded existance so they are more willing to do the work immigrants gleeful grasp when they get here. If restricting immigration really is an acceptable goal.

But someone tell me, how do you resurrect the aspiration of children and young people born into fatherless families, brought up on community derelict estates, in benefit ghettos where hope and drive is ridiculed and scoffed out without offering funded schemes and support to the "families" which bring them up.

Does anyone suggest severing financial support is the way to extinguish apathy and promote resourcefulness and ambition?

Social breakdown. Thats the route cause, and in my view, that is entirably traceable to emergance of TWO working parents.

We've lost community, quality of life, parenting and the sense of family since then. Yes, you can point to this example or the other to disprove the generalisation.

But I maintain, one parent at home to raise children and one breadwinner was the foundation for everything we now long for when we read of ferrel children, teenage pregnancy, obesity, benefit fed families, loss of community..........but then I'm VERY old-fashioned.

Nick Griffin might have took a beating on TV this time but he has just lost a small battle.. he will be back and even if he doesn't gain any media savvy in his political career there will be someone to replace him who will and who will make the policies of the BNP sound very plausible. We have opened an inevitable Pandoras box (and inevitable because the BNP are gaining ground, power and support) and we cannot go back now. The viewing ratings (over half of what question time usually gets) show that there is interest in what this man has to say.

This can be all traced back to the 1980s and the days we sold off our industry and closed down our mines because they were 'economically unviable' hoping to replace those industries with call centres and light engineering factories is like putting an elastoplast over a stab wound. Communities are turning against themselves allover the country. Burnley exists because of the cotton trade - what do you do about Burnley when the reason it exists has now disappeared? Racism is a symptom of what is happening now. Which is the destruction of our livlehoods by the mega rich who wanted even more.

They don't give a toss - the super rich will live in their gated communities surrounded with armed guards while we all fight it out like savages because thats what they do allover the world - go to South Africa, Peru, the Philippines. Whatever their colour or race - the rich are the same all over the world - greedy, unethical bastards. The benefits system is going - and once that has gone - probably in the next 20 years - then we are going to see some real poverty and some real social upheaval. Racism will just be ONE problem.

Ships are still being built, coal is still being dug out, more cars are being built - but where? I was in Korea for two years and EVERYONE had a job and you know what they did with their money? They spent it on their childrens education - and in the next 30 or so years - they will be our masters - as a Korean told me once - 'we aren't learning English so we can get your order right when we serve you at starbucks'

In my opinion - in the next 50 years - there will be widespread emigration from Europe to the far east - white people will be living and working in Asia in factories, car plants and gold mines - and I will tell you something for free - it aint no fun working for the yellow man - he makes Maggie look like Red Robbo. We spent our day in the sun getting fat, stupid and lazy revelling in how great we are because we are white and English and we once ruled the world. Its ending now as we speak.


Mind you - look at the bright side - future living conditions should produce some fantastic boxers!

banjo wrote:Griffin is an idiot, plain and simple, always backtracking and contradicting himself at every opportunity.

He's not an idiot, he has a degree in Law.

I agree with him on immigration, it has to be curbed. Britain is now a third world country, we've gone backwards.

It's not about skin colour, the number of eastern europeans flooding the country is out of control. In my town you have up to 6 migrants living in private accomodation, 2 bedroom homes. They produce 6 times as much refuge, and only pay one council tax; so the rest of us have to pay higher bills for the council services.

I was sickened to see a documentary a few months ago about a polish gang master who brings illegals over to britain. He gets them to claim child support as payment to him for bringing them in, the money was going into his bank account; this guy was raking in £12,000 a month in fraudulent claims.

No wonder this countrys on its arse, all the money is going to poland and the likes. :x

This was a post I made on the other sports section... In response to a post Danieljenkins made there.

danieljenkins wrote:nick griffin was right on a few points ! we sould close the door because its getting to over populated and unemployment is high so why are we giving jobs away to people who's not even from britain and dont give me all that crap about they gets the jobs that british workers dont wont.its time for a change i dont think nick griffin is the man for the job but i think people sould take on board his views on immigration

i dont mean to cause offence to anybody and im no rascit

All that crap, its true. Old man works did work for a building firm (now gone self-employed through his own choice).... if it wasn't for the Eastern Europeans this firm would be on its arse. Not because of the "cheap" labour (this guy actually pays them the same rate) but because the Brits cannot hack it. He's HAD to go down the foreign labour route cause most of the young Brits he employs cannot hack it... quit after a week etc.

I blame the governments "50% of the population will get degrees" aim. They've dumbed down the importance of degrees. I strived and worked my arse off to get my degree.... cause I've seen my old man fecked with arthritis etc - I didn't fancy working on the building site. Problem is.... so many have the same attitude. There have been huge chunks of my life where I haven't had a regular job. Have I gone to the building site and asked.... nope. Cause I always had the goal not to go there, I have worked in shops etc - but sadly, the dumbing down of degrees have made people "think above their station".

I'm about a year away in becoming a doctor in psychology - can I work as a psychologist.... NO I cannot, not even after I get my doctrate. When I started my PhD.... I could, but the time I graduate the system has changed - I would now have to work 2 years shadowing a proffesional. Why.... well I think the reason is ultimately 2 fold - 1) More money for the British Psychological Society...... 2) Cause Degrees have been dumbed down there are more people with degrees and masters now - so they need to seperate the good from the not so good.

I work in the education sector, and really there are people now with degrees who in reality, 15 years ago, would have been adviced by the school not to even bother with A levels. I know someone working as a gym instructor (doing quite well) with a degree in Health and Fitness who I had to tell last week the symptoms of a heart attack!!! I know for a fact there was an entire module on it in his degree course.... would you like to be instructed on diet, fitness and health issues by him. He's a nice guy, but no offense to him.... he's really dumb - I know he faked his GCSE's to get onto the degree, and I seriously suspect (and kind of hope) of something suspect when he got his 2:1 degree. I don't mean to sound harsh and cruel.... but he shouldn't be in a job that requires a degree status (and he is). He shouldn't be with a degree (in his FINAL year of his degree he thought a comp had a button called ANY!). As a result of the dumbing down of degrees.... it leaves a gap with those trades that we need to survive.

Now, I am naturally bias when it comes to foreign worker, through my dad's experience plus my Mrs has moved from Poland to be with me. However, she's not taking anyone's job - she had an almighty struggle to get work... She speaks 3 languages fluently (English, Polish and German)... pretty compentent in Spanish. Has a Masters in Business and Communication, was offered numerous doctorate scholoships.... Whats her current work in the UK... She's a nanny!!! In her job in Poland, she regularly travelled to Barcelona and Berlin for coroporate meetings - highly skilled and experience... She cannot (yet) get shortlisted for interview to work as a secretary in the council. Its early days, but so far the only person to offer her a job was as a nanny.

skelp wrote:Britain is now a third world country,

Because we don't produce anything - we have become a massive call centre - oh no we haven't - the Indians have
took even that off us.

we've gone backwards.

Go back to 1987 for the reason - tell Sid! (if you are old enough to remember - you'll know what that means)

skelp wrote:

banjo wrote:Griffin is an idiot, plain and simple, always backtracking and contradicting himself at every opportunity.

He's not an idiot, he has a degree in Law.

I agree with him on immigration, it has to be curbed. Britain is now a third world country, we've gone backwards.

It's not about skin colour, the number of eastern europeans flooding the country is out of control. In my town you have up to 6 migrants living in private accomodation, 2 bedroom homes. They produce 6 times as much refuge, and only pay one council tax; so the rest of us have to pay higher bills for the council services.

I was sickened to see a documentary a few months ago about a polish gang master who brings illegals over to britain. He gets them to claim child support as payment to him for bringing them in, the money was going into his bank account; this guy was raking in £12,000 a month in fraudulent claims.

No wonder this countrys on its arse, all the money is going to poland and the likes. :x

Britain's on it's arse because we have no industry, all the greedy companies laid off all the workers in this country and moved their factories abroad so they could pay some poor Asian kid £1 a day to work in a sweatshop while the fatcats make even more profit off other peoples misery.

As a side note, but its an important point. Members of the BNP and their supporters are getting p'd off at the apparent influx of European workers here... what about in the 80's when things were bad for skilled tradesman here thanks to Maggie.... MANY went to Europe to find work. Auf Weirdsehn Pet wasn't a rare occurance - British tradesmen went in their hundreds. Doing exactly the same as the Eastern European are doing here.... for the most part Europe embraced and appreciated the importance of these skilled workers.

I know its a minority, why can't we respect the same. Even before I met my mrs I had nothing but admiration for people to leave their loved ones, culture etc to try and boost their families future.

stujones wrote:As a side note, but its an important point. Members of the BNP and their supporters are getting p'd off at the apparent influx of European workers here... what about in the 80's when things were bad for skilled tradesman here thanks to Maggie.... MANY went to Europe to find work. Auf Weirdsehn Pet wasn't a rare occurance - British tradesmen went in their hundreds. Doing exactly the same as the Eastern European are doing here.... for the most part Europe embraced and appreciated the importance of these skilled workers.

I know its a minority, why can't we respect the same. Even before I met my mrs I had nothing but admiration for people to leave their loved ones, culture etc to try and boost their families future.

It's 'cos it's easier finding a scapegoat for all your troubles than sorting out complex problems.

Obviously I don't agree with the scapegoating, but people tend to be much happier when they've got someone to blame (rather than a confluence of socio-economic factors, historical grievances & movements, Milton Friedman Chicago-style "trickle down" economics & about a hundred other things).

Look at how the Nazis got in, in Weimar Germany. Did the people just go "Feck me, those Jews & Roma, that's why we lost the war!" one day, or were they scared & vulnerable due to loss of prestige in WW1 & the Depression, so took the easy route of blaming the Other?

I'd guess the latter (over-simplification ,but you get what I mean).

I was disappointed with the show last night.

On one hand i wanted to pelt Griffin with eggs 'as the bad guy' but then I thought that this was going to be a missed opportunity by question time to actually dig down into the soul of the BNP to see if it's truly dark or if there is simply a lot of confusion in it.

The show descended into a bear pit with lots of ethical minorities having a 'scripted' go at Griffin, before collecting their round of applause.

I think that they didn't afford him an opportunity to truly discuss in his party's agenda and to answer in depth many of the (obviously loaded) questions.

I thought Griffin would be some sort of hard man in a suit, but he was more of a middle-class nerd than anything else.

If you all really wanted to see the true feelings behind the BNP, then look out for 'BNP Wives' show on Sky 3 which looks at the women involved in the party.

Some of the wives are actually a bit misguided, some are lonely and some are venom (the fitness instructor 3.30)

Check them here:---

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33uSVd9-xzM

In closing, my girlfriend is mixed race (so is my son) so i find anyone who stands on stage with the Ku Klux Klan leader abhorrent.

Why cant we get rid of colour, class and country?

John Lennon said imagine no countries and no religion. All living together happily with no class system.

It would seem that 'sponger' is actually a job title, involving skills aquired over time, that our lazy country has invented.

The more skillfull sponger can manipulate a house, a disability car and a fat weekly pay out for nothing.

All they need is someone to drive up their arse in a car, hey presto they have a 'back injury' and bob's your uncle.

But going back to the BNP, they are collecting confused voters who are concerned about this country and are not necessarily racist. That's because all the other parties are going soft.

stujones wrote:This was a post I made on the other sports section... In response to a post Danieljenkins made there.

danieljenkins wrote:nick griffin was right on a few points ! we sould close the door because its getting to over populated and unemployment is high so why are we giving jobs away to people who's not even from britain and dont give me all that crap about they gets the jobs that british workers dont wont.its time for a change i dont think nick griffin is the man for the job but i think people sould take on board his views on immigration

i dont mean to cause offence to anybody and im no rascit

All that crap, its true. Old man works did work for a building firm (now gone self-employed through his own choice).... if it wasn't for the Eastern Europeans this firm would be on its arse. Not because of the "cheap" labour (this guy actually pays them the same rate) but because the Brits cannot hack it. He's HAD to go down the foreign labour route cause most of the young Brits he employs cannot hack it... quit after a week etc.

I blame the governments "50% of the population will get degrees" aim. They've dumbed down the importance of degrees. I strived and worked my arse off to get my degree.... cause I've seen my old man fecked with arthritis etc - I didn't fancy working on the building site. Problem is.... so many have the same attitude. There have been huge chunks of my life where I haven't had a regular job. Have I gone to the building site and asked.... nope. Cause I always had the goal not to go there, I have worked in shops etc - but sadly, the dumbing down of degrees have made people "think above their station".

I'm about a year away in becoming a doctor in psychology - can I work as a psychologist.... NO I cannot, not even after I get my doctrate. When I started my PhD.... I could, but the time I graduate the system has changed - I would now have to work 2 years shadowing a proffesional. Why.... well I think the reason is ultimately 2 fold - 1) More money for the British Psychological Society...... 2) Cause Degrees have been dumbed down there are more people with degrees and masters now - so they need to seperate the good from the not so good.

I work in the education sector, and really there are people now with degrees who in reality, 15 years ago, would have been adviced by the school not to even bother with A levels. I know someone working as a gym instructor (doing quite well) with a degree in Health and Fitness who I had to tell last week the symptoms of a heart attack!!! I know for a fact there was an entire module on it in his degree course.... would you like to be instructed on diet, fitness and health issues by him. He's a nice guy, but no offense to him.... he's really dumb - I know he faked his GCSE's to get onto the degree, and I seriously suspect (and kind of hope) of something suspect when he got his 2:1 degree. I don't mean to sound harsh and cruel.... but he shouldn't be in a job that requires a degree status (and he is). He shouldn't be with a degree (in his FINAL year of his degree he thought a comp had a button called ANY!). As a result of the dumbing down of degrees.... it leaves a gap with those trades that we need to survive.

Now, I am naturally bias when it comes to foreign worker, through my dad's experience plus my Mrs has moved from Poland to be with me. However, she's not taking anyone's job - she had an almighty struggle to get work... She speaks 3 languages fluently (English, Polish and German)... pretty compentent in Spanish. Has a Masters in Business and Communication, was offered numerous doctorate scholoships.... Whats her current work in the UK... She's a nanny!!! In her job in Poland, she regularly travelled to Barcelona and Berlin for coroporate meetings - highly skilled and experience... She cannot (yet) get shortlisted for interview to work as a secretary in the council. Its early days, but so far the only person to offer her a job was as a nanny.

I just fail see any point you were trying to make other than your a hypocrite .. do you want to simplify your point?

John Lennon said imagine no countries and no religion. All living together happily with no class system.

The perfect society, sadly it'll never happen because Man is corrupted by greed.

Can someone answer me.... Is Skelp right in calling Polish people illegals. From what I have read - they have as much right to work here as we do, as they are members of the EU. Well providing the get hold of a NI number - which is a relatively straight forward task for those living in the EU.

At the same time, we actually have the same right to work there. Infact, conditions for UK people to work in Poland are significantly better than British people. The Mrs' english is first class... speaking to her, you wouldn't know she was Polish (she actually sounds American). She had all the relevant teaching qualifications. However, a native speaker of English, with no qualifications, could actually WALK into a job at a language University... and would get paid DOUBLE the amount a Polish person with fantastic English would (this is something I have actually looked into to consider myself).

With the cost of living so cheap.... these native speakers get a life of luxery. Plus alot of them, tend to be able to "sell the dream" to the hot girls and bag themselves a hotty half their age!

stujones wrote:Can someone answer me.... Is Skelp right in calling Polish people illegals. From what I have read - they have as much right to work here as we do, as they are members of the EU. Well providing the get hold of a NI number - which is a relatively straight forward task for those living in the EU.

At the same time, we actually have the same right to work there. Infact, conditions for UK people to work in Poland are significantly better than British people. The Mrs' english is first class... speaking to her, you wouldn't know she was Polish (she actually sounds American). She had all the relevant teaching qualifications. However, a native speaker of English, with no qualifications, could actually WALK into a job at a language University... and would get paid DOUBLE the amount a Polish person with fantastic English would (this is something I have actually looked into to consider myself).

With the cost of living so cheap.... these native speakers get a life of luxery. Plus alot of them, tend to be able to "sell the dream" to the hot girls and bag themselves a hotty half their age!

Your lady is a hottie herself Stu!

Skelp is just re-iterating crap - the facts are that the one EU nation that has benefited from the 'right to work' anywhere in the EU are the British - there might be a big transient community of Poles here but there are two communities of Britons that are just as big in Spain and Germany as well as medium sized British communities that live in Cyprus, Greece, Malta and France.

I wouldn't worry about Skelp, Stu - he will be an immigrant himself in 15 years from now as he will be banging out transistor radios in some sweatbox in Taiwan for 10 NT dollars an hour.

tonyevs wrote:

I just fail see any point you were trying to make other than your a hypocrite .. do you want to simplify your point?

Sorry toneyvs - very passionate about it. What point/s don't you understand. I will try to make it clearer.

1) I think the dumbing down of degrees has made people go to University which has left less school leavers and less people contiplating the more manual jobs. Yes, I am part of the system and therefore guilty also. I'll hold my hands up and say this. I was brought up by a working class (building family) and was always told in my teens - now "you don't want to do this hard work, you get a degree and get a good job".... sadly, and I meant this with the greatest respect, people now who wouldn't have been put forward 15 years ago for further education are getting degrees - meaning more competition for the non-manual jobs, more gaps in the market for the low paid jobs (with people not wishing to do this).

My views on foreign workers is quite simple.... we should embrace it, appreciate it and respect their bravery. However, if it wasn't for the dumbing down of the education system. Then I don't think there would be as many here. In years gone by, people less suited for academia would be told at an early age and they would pick up a trade. Now its very much different.

2) However, even those that do leave school early, many building companies are complaining that the Young British people cannot hack the work.

For me thats a huge point of the economic problems of this country.

I would like to know which points you thought was hypocritical.

DavidPayne wrote:We dont need to impose sanctions, just motivate the percentage of society nurtured in a world of benefit funded existance so they are more willing to do the work immigrants gleeful grasp when they get here. If restricting immigration really is an acceptable goal.

But someone tell me, how do you resurrect the aspiration of children and young people born into fatherless families, brought up on community derelict estates, in benefit ghettos where hope and drive is ridiculed and scoffed out without offering funded schemes and support to the "families" which bring them up.

Does anyone suggest severing financial support is the way to extinguish apathy and promote resourcefulness and ambition?

Our political views differ at times David but you raise some excellent points and questions here. For me the root of the problem is the benefit culture and linked to this, the lack of social cohesion in many communities, and tackling it is an incredibly complex issue.
There is some proof from the States that severing financial support from the state can actually have positive results but I think it's a question of timing - if the govt had implemented it during the 'boom' period then those individuals would have been forced to find work... but crucially the jobs were there. Currently, they aren't, so if you cut off the state 'lifeline', there's no safety net in the form of employment prospects.
While I don't buy into the hysteria surrounding immigration, equally the PC element shouldn't prevent serious questions being asked about the net effect on the economy, as matters like the strain on the NHS are too important to be overlooked.
I think the other huge problem is the way government is structured. The pressure for any elected party to achieve 'instant' results in their first term means everyone is looking for quick fixes or PR soundbites and no-one is prepared to invest in a coherent, long-term strategy despite the fact that all of us can see there is something fundamentally rotten at the moment in terms of certain echelons of society, where education and family have become dirty words rather than values to aspire to.
This latter point is why I'm so pessimistic - even though the problems are in plain sight to everyone, I don't see anyone at a policy-making level who genuinely believes they can tackle it effectively. Even worse, the vast majority of politicians don't really want to, they just play lip-service to it - those who genuinely go into politics from a sense of public duty are a distinct minority now, and most politicians are in 'the game' for personal enrichment and the sense of power it provides. Look at Blair for the ultimate example.

Carlos-Wigan wrote: Burnley exists because of the cotton trade - what do you do about Burnley when the reason it exists has now disappeared?

But at the risk of sounding philosophical Carlos, some of it is just the march of history. Whether it's ancient Rome or modern-day Burnley, economies change, societies implode and towns and cities thrive and die. Go to somewhere like Vienna and you'll see the incredible palaces owned by the rulers of the Hapsberg Empire, who up until as recently as under a hundred years ago ruled a vast swathe of Western Europe. Yet look at Austria now - in international terms it's a backwater.
You can't artificially sustain communities built around industries that are simply no longer viable, but what any responsible govt has to do is try and manage that process of change - to put in place alternatives, whether that's education opportunities for the workforce or whether that's grants or incentives for other industries to move in to create fresh employment.

Deserter wrote:

Carlos-Wigan wrote: Burnley exists because of the cotton trade - what do you do about Burnley when the reason it exists has now disappeared?

But at the risk of sounding philosophical Carlos, some of it is just the march of history. Whether it's ancient Rome or modern-day Burnley, economies change, societies implode and towns and cities thrive and die. Go to somewhere like Vienna and you'll see the incredible palaces owned by the rulers of the Hapsberg Empire, who up until as recently as under a hundred years ago ruled a vast swathe of Western Europe. Yet look at Austria now - in international terms it's a backwater.
You can't artificially sustain communities built around industries that are simply no longer viable, but what any responsible govt has to do is try and manage that process of change - to put in place alternatives, whether that's education opportunities for the workforce or whether that's grants or incentives for other industries to move in to create fresh employment.

But you know, we surrendered a ship industry, a car industry and a mining industry which is a bit different (which I am sure you will agree) than the demise of the Austro-Hungarian empire (and the Ottoman empire) after being defeated after world war one.

We could have kept those industries at a cost - like the French, the Germans, the Norwegians, the Swedes and the Swiss - but we decided to sell out to the lowest bidder and you are right actually - thats the march of history and thats how capitalism works for the movers and shakers - maximum profit at all costs and at all times. I don't suppose it is fair to cry when capitalism goes against us when we had it good for so long.

But...

What do we do about what is happening now - the communities where the industries were are now blight ridden, cancerous shitholes and when we saw young Les Andrews put on his arse and yootoobed for the world to see - it goes to show what epidemic proportions this kind of behaviour has got to. Where do we go?

The alternatives haven't worked - thats the problem. I am not against the theory that western Europe has had its time as the industrial heart of the planet and that the inevitable has come to fruition and that it is the turn of the east - what annoys me is that we could have sustained the death knell a few more decades - we could have done something and now we have nothing. We used to make all this shit and we gave it all up without a fight - thats whats annoying.

skelp wrote:

banjo wrote:Griffin is an idiot, plain and simple, always backtracking and contradicting himself at every opportunity.

He's not an idiot, he has a degree in Law.

You know, you can be an idiot and have a degree in Law. Just saying.