BoxRec

DG. wrote:Now Haye has beaten Valuev, is he number 1?

No because Valuev was below Paulie Malignaggi in the P4P stakes

Personally i think it's a tie.

Haye has now collected a few belts in two weight divisions, wheras Froch has just the one but has had the more serious tests and passed them and remains undefeated.

Why would you rate your number one p4p JUST on current form? I think it has to be an overall judgement and for that reason Hatton would still be number one for me. Froch and Haye still need to do a bit more to supercede him, given that he has only lost to the two greatest fighters of his generation.

glahn wrote:Why would you rate your number one p4p JUST on current form? I think it has to be an overall judgement and for that reason Hatton would still be number one for me. Froch and Haye still need to do a bit more to supercede him, given that he has only lost to the two greatest fighters of his generation.

Hatton has been the favourite in ALL but 3 of his fights, and he lost 2 of those.

I think Haye has been favourite in all of his fights. Froch was the underdog in just one of them.

stujones wrote:I think Haye has been favourite in all of his fights. Froch was the underdog in just one of them.

But Froch and Haye have fought good opposition - cleaned up the UK then moved on..
AND won al their fights bar one..

This has to be current form, if it isn't then we should just have Lennox at number and leave it at that.

Rankings change by the fight, so does P4P.

DG. wrote:

stujones wrote:I think Haye has been favourite in all of his fights. Froch was the underdog in just one of them.

But Froch and Haye have fought good opposition - cleaned up the UK then moved on..
AND won al their fights bar one..

This has to be current form, if it isn't then we should just have Lennox at number and leave it at that.

Rankings change by the fight, so does P4P.

Lewis has retired so that's a moot point. Froch and Haye haven't fought opposition anywhere near the level of Mayweather and Pacquiao. Hatton lost but he only lost to the very best. His inactivity hurts him in any evaluation of p4p fighters, but you have to make an evaluation on more criteria than simply recent form, otherwise what is the point? Form is definitely a factor but so is overall achievement, skills, level of opposition and various other things. At least it is for me.

glahn wrote:Why would you rate your number one p4p JUST on current form? I think it has to be an overall judgement and for that reason Hatton would still be number one for me. Froch and Haye still need to do a bit more to supercede him, given that he has only lost to the two greatest fighters of his generation.

KT was 5 years ago, since then Hatton has gone downhill..

How can someone knocked out twice and cold recently and who most say has lost his punch resistance be rated above Froch and Haye who are blazing a trail few (including Hatton) can match?

Hatton was almost 38-0 when he fought KT (who was past his best) he has not fought the best available since until the $$$$$ of Pac and PBF - I am 100% sure that Hatton would not have fought them if it were not for the money.

glahn wrote:

DG. wrote:

stujones wrote:I think Haye has been favourite in all of his fights. Froch was the underdog in just one of them.

But Froch and Haye have fought good opposition - cleaned up the UK then moved on..
AND won al their fights bar one..

This has to be current form, if it isn't then we should just have Lennox at number and leave it at that.

Rankings change by the fight, so does P4P.

Lewis has retired so that's a moot point. Froch and Haye haven't fought opposition anywhere near the level of Mayweather and Pacquiao. Hatton lost but he only lost to the very best. His inactivity hurts him in any evaluation of p4p fighters, but you have to make an evaluation on more criteria than simply recent form, otherwise what is the point? Form is definitely a factor but so is overall achievement, skills, level of opposition and various other things. At least it is for me.

BEING KNOCKED OUT TWICE BY THE BEST DOES NOT COUNT TOWARDS PUSHING YOU TO THE TOP OF THE UK P4P LISTING.

VICTORIES OVER MORMECK AND BEING UNDISOPUTED AT CRUISER - REAL UNDISPUTED - NOT LIKE HATTON WHO BEAT KT AND SAT ON IT EVER SINCE WHILE AVOIDING THE BEST CHALLENGERS - AND BEING A HEAVYWEIGH WORLD CHAMPION WHO IS LOOKING FORE THE BEST FIGHTS MEANS MORE.


WINNING A BELT AGAINST MAUSSA AND COLLAZO MEANS NOT MUCH IN P4P IMO.

Froch and Haye FIGHT THE BEST REGARDLESS.

glahn wrote:

DG. wrote:

stujones wrote:I think Haye has been favourite in all of his fights. Froch was the underdog in just one of them.

But Froch and Haye have fought good opposition - cleaned up the UK then moved on..
AND won al their fights bar one..

This has to be current form, if it isn't then we should just have Lennox at number and leave it at that.

Rankings change by the fight, so does P4P.

Lewis has retired so that's a moot point. Froch and Haye haven't fought opposition anywhere near the level of Mayweather and Pacquiao. Hatton lost but he only lost to the very best. His inactivity hurts him in any evaluation of p4p fighters, but you have to make an evaluation on more criteria than simply recent form, otherwise what is the point? Form is definitely a factor but so is overall achievement, skills, level of opposition and various other things. At least it is for me.

I think thats a good point, plus you have to look at the manner of the performances. Have Haye/Froch fought as high a ranked fight P4P as Malignaggi and Castillo (at the time of the fight).

I think had Haye and Froch dominated their most recent opponents, in a similar way as Hatton did against Malignaggi then the case for them would be most clear cut. But it does seem a good majority feel Froch lost his last fight, and a few feel Valuev beat Haye.... both of whom were not considered higher P4P than Malignaggi (who Hatton dominated).

Its all subjective, and I aint saying not having Hatton at #1 is necessarily out of order, and I think the fact he will probably be out of the ring for more than a year before he returns makes him at a huge disadvantage.

Hatton might have lost to two p4p #1's but he's beaten two p4p top tenners also..... I know you like to dismiss Castillo quite often, but at the time he was considered a massive threat and in most peoples p4p lists.

Castillo was an old lightweight who had just 'lost' to Herman N'godudududoooo!!

Hatton is a very good fighter, but Castillo and PM were not more dangerous than say Mormeck-Jermain Taylor- VALUEV, imo.

It cant be anyone except Froch. He's already got a better record than Calzaghe.

DG. wrote:Castillo was an old lightweight who had just 'lost' to Herman N'godudududoooo!!

Hatton is a very good fighter, but Castillo and PM were not more dangerous than say Mormeck-Jermain Taylor- VALUEV, imo.

Everything can be countered though with that.

1) At the time, many people just thought Castillo was unmotivated for the Herman fight, and thats why he looked average - every fighter has a "going through the motions" type of performance. I would still say the majority thought he won a close but clear decision.

2) Castillo was still ranked in most people's P4P top ten. Were Taylor, Mormeck and Valuev?

3) Wasn't Mormeck an aging, inactive Cruiserweight?

4) Didn't Taylor just get lose back to back fights vs Pavlik and look laboured vs Lacy? Hasn't looked good since either. Sure you can say Froch has made Taylor shot, but then maybe Hatton has done the same job with Castillo?

5) Doesn't manner of victory mean anything..... Froch was 13 seconds away from losing to Taylor. Hatton destroyed Castillo, winning every round before KO'ing him early.

6) I personally disagree that Castillo was less dangerous than those mentioned (I agree with you regarding PM).... although I can see your point. Personally, I tipped Valuev, Taylor and Castillo to beat the brit boys.

7) Valuev was considered dangerous cause of his bulk more than his skill - which is far enough, but when considering P4P.... I personally don't give some heavyweights "sympathy" points because they are small heavyweights. A heavyweight is a heavyweight. Sure, I am not disputing what Haye did was wonderful - not many would want to take on Valuev..... but he's a heavyweight and taking into account he is a small heavy is not really that objective (IMO).... then he should be considered #1 P4P Heavyweight (and that doesn't really add up).

Its close.... I think its really a toss up now between the 3. I just give Hatton the edge cause of the manner of his victories in the Castillo/PM fights - and I do class the Mormeck Haye fought, Valuev, Pascal (at the moment) and Dirrell in that class.... maybe a little lower. Taylor might have been considered a little higher, but not much.However, would wipe him off if he doesn't before May.... I don 't think a fighter who has been inactive for more than a year should be in p4p discussions.... untill after he does fight.

All subjective and I aint going to make a massive arguement either way. Actually, had Haye fought better vs Valuev than he did - then I think he would have moved to #1. But I think you've got to consider him as a heavyweight now - and so far, well undefeated but not super impressive.

Stu,

I also consider the manner of their losses. Has Hatton ever fought a speedy skilled fighter and won?

Froch has and managed to beat them both.....and one of them on the road.

Things move on, Hatton is no longer P4P anything, Froch and Haye are both rated above him in the Boxrec rankings, not always accurate, but this time I agree.

Froch is P4P Number15 and Haye Number 23.

i say haye do to the fact hes done the job at 2 weights and hasnt been devistatingly KO'd

DG. wrote:Stu,

I also consider the manner of their losses. Has Hatton ever fought a speedy skilled fighter and won?

Froch has and managed to beat them both.....and one of them on the road.

Things move on, Hatton is no longer P4P anything, Froch and Haye are both rated above him in the Boxrec rankings, not always accurate, but this time I agree.

Froch is P4P Number15 and Haye Number 23.

I would say Malignaggi was speedy and skilled and that was on the road and that wasn't controvesial.

But not really going to argue with you - all very subjective. Its a very valid arguement to have both ahead of Hatton, and for Amir to be hot on his heels..... but just not quite for me.

stujones wrote:

DG. wrote:Stu,

I also consider the manner of their losses. Has Hatton ever fought a speedy skilled fighter and won?

Froch has and managed to beat them both.....and one of them on the road.

Things move on, Hatton is no longer P4P anything, Froch and Haye are both rated above him in the Boxrec rankings, not always accurate, but this time I agree.

Froch is P4P Number15 and Haye Number 23.

I would say Malignaggi was speedy and skilled and that was on the road and that wasn't controvesial.

But not really going to argue with you - all very subjective. Its a very valid arguement to have both ahead of Hatton, and for Amir to be hot on his heels..... but just not quite for me.

I blame Buddy Mcgirt for that loss, he says 'baby' a bit too much!

If Hatton reverses his losses he goes to the top, but that ain't ever going to happen.