BoxRec

states wrote:

Nelson Gateau wrote:You don't need to be caught doing anything for a cloud of suspicion to hang over you. We are not talking about convicting him in a court here, just how history will consider his refusal to try and clear his name. In the court of public opinion nothing else will be needed for his entire career to be thrown into question.

If by 'court of public opinion', you mean you, then sure.

Fact is, Paqcuiao is now being asked to clear a name that was never dirty. He shouldn't have to disprove allegations made by others, when he's never been shown to have cheated. The burden of proof shouldn't be on the accused, that strikes me as a fairly simple legal tenet.

The legal question is moot, no burden of proof is needed, since this is not a legal matter. You only need to read the boxing boards to see that by court of public opinion I mean the majority of boxing fans who either think he's a cheat or at least have suspicions. If it was just me there wouldn't be a dozen different discussions on this very subject going on at hundreds of boxing boards at this very moment.

You, and others like you, are reacting as if you have some personal stake in Manny's future. You don't, and I don't. I hope he takes the test and proves the doubters wrong. I am not a "fan" of either of the fighters involved in this controversy. If pressed, I would be supporting Manny if the fight ever happens, since Mayweather is clearly a douchbag. But as of right now, it looks to me and most others as if Pac has something to hide.

Spud wrote:
Mayweather started with a "wind up" which has opened up a possible horrible can of worms!!

It's not a wind-up at all. What it is is offering an accusation, and creating a situation where someone has to either accede to your demands, or be perceived as guilty. Mayweather's camp have no proof of Manny's guilt, so they've created a situation where he [Manny] has, now, in the eyes of many, to prove he's innocent, rather than they [Mayweather's camp] have to prove he's guilty. It's a cheap trick.

Nelson Gateau wrote:The legal question is moot, no burden of proof is needed, since this is not a legal matter. You only need to read the boxing boards to see that by court of public opinion I mean the majority of boxing fans who either think he's a cheat or at least have suspicions. If it was just me there wouldn't be a dozen different discussions on this very subject going on at hundreds of boxing boards at this very moment.

You, and others like you, are reacting as if you have some personal stake in Manny's future. You don't, and I don't. I hope he takes the test and proves the doubters wrong. I am not a "fan" of either of the fighters involved in this controversy. If pressed, I would be supporting Manny if the fight ever happens, since Mayweather is clearly a douchbag. But as of right now, it looks to me and most others as if Pac has something to hide.

I'm fully aware that it's not, technically, a legal matter. My point is simply that nobody should have to prove their innocence. It's up to others to prove their guilt.

And of course I don't have a stake in Manny's future. What he does, or does not do has absolutely no bearing on my life. My point is that people such as yourself are now saying that you 'hope Manny takes the test'. Thus the Mayweather camp have aroused a level of suspicion that now deems Manny guilty, until such point as he satisfies his opponents standards.

Maybe Pacquiao has something to hide, I don't know. But that should be the realm of the boxing commisions, not his prospective opponents.

Its all getting kinda deep now ..

Maybe this could be a welcome shake up for boxing .. a modern, up to date way of testing for all boxers.

tonyevs wrote:Its all getting kinda deep now ..

Maybe this could be a welcome shake up for boxing .. a modern, up to date way of testing for all boxers.

that's one good thing I hope will come out of all this. Mayweather is after setting a precedent now and hopefully it will make the various commissions in boxing take a long hard look at changing the structure of the anti-doping setup in the sport. Every boxing fan and everyone in boxing knows the current system is not effective and never has been.

states wrote:

Nelson Gateau wrote:The legal question is moot, no burden of proof is needed, since this is not a legal matter. You only need to read the boxing boards to see that by court of public opinion I mean the majority of boxing fans who either think he's a cheat or at least have suspicions. If it was just me there wouldn't be a dozen different discussions on this very subject going on at hundreds of boxing boards at this very moment.

You, and others like you, are reacting as if you have some personal stake in Manny's future. You don't, and I don't. I hope he takes the test and proves the doubters wrong. I am not a "fan" of either of the fighters involved in this controversy. If pressed, I would be supporting Manny if the fight ever happens, since Mayweather is clearly a douchbag. But as of right now, it looks to me and most others as if Pac has something to hide.

I'm fully aware that it's not, technically, a legal matter. My point is simply that nobody should have to prove their innocence. It's up to others to prove their guilt.

And of course I don't have a stake in Manny's future. What he does, or does not do has absolutely no bearing on my life. My point is that people such as yourself are now saying that you 'hope Manny takes the test'. Thus the Mayweather camp have aroused a level of suspicion that now deems Manny guilty, until such point as he satisfies his opponents standards.

Maybe Pacquiao has something to hide, I don't know. But that should be the realm of the boxing commisions, not his prospective opponents.

Fair enough if we lived in a perfect world, but we don't. The simple fact, whether justified or not, is that there is now a cloud hanging over Pac's career. He has the power to remove it by proving that he is clean. His refusal to do that will be ruinous to his reputation because of how it will be percieved, fair or not. And his refusal can't help but raise eyebrows of all but the most maniacally biased fan. Who walks away from $40 mil like this unless they are trying to hide something? If he's all natural, let him prove it. Because to a lot of people right now he appears to have been into something that has given him an illegal edge over the competition. If that is indeed the case, wouldn't you want it corrected? If he's abusing PED's, is it fair to Hatton, Cotto, etc (assuming that were not abusing PED's, and indeed they don't look as if they were) for the charges to go unchallenged? Shouldn't Mayweather have the right to be assured the playing field is level, in what could be a fight that will define his entire career?

As I have said before, I think these more demanding testing standards should be applied in all big fights, not just in the case of this one fighter who seems to have progressed through weight classes with highly unusual strength.

Exoddus wrote: Excatly. Why would he lose $40 million for a teaspoon of blood? Why is he now suing Mayweather? When all they have done is ask for a test?

Just to clear this up - he has threatened to sue Mayweatehr Sr for libellous allegations of drug use not for asking for a test.

It does seem that Mayweather is just trying to unsettle Pacquiao and it's working. Manny is a simple guy from the Philipines and the thought of having his blood extracted freaks him out a little bit.

It does seem that many people have accepted that because Floyd Sr made an accusation that Manny is automatically guilty and has to prove his innocence. I suppose the same people believe until Usain Bolt agrees to many more tests than any other sprinter in the world then all his records should be voided.

Mayweather has no right to overrule the Nevada boxing commission. He should be lobbying the commission to change their procedures rather than expect Team Pacquiao to accept whatever new rules they decide to invent.

It definitely weakens Goldenboys case that Judah asked Mosley to take extra tests before their proposed and Schaefer responded to that by saying no way, the commission's tests are suffcient.

i cant help but think this is all just to hype the fight up!

wasnt hatton v pac on / off for about a month?

Evidence, evidence of why I need to find another sport to follow.

F---ing depressing that such an amazing bout as this gets pulled for the most wanktile of reasons.

whicker wrote:Evidence, evidence of why I need to find another sport to follow.

F---ing depressing that such an amazing bout as this gets pulled for the most wanktile of reasons.

Try MMA, come over to the dark side D

(Cue streams of abuse....)

sg1985 wrote:

tonyevs wrote:

sg1985 wrote: Nobody has reason to suspect Pacqauio of anything.

Actually there is a very good reason to suspect him ... the very fact he has moved up from flyweight to welterweight and demolished heavier guys at the heavier weight.

Can you name me another boxer in the long history of the sport who has moved from flyweight to welter and demolished the heavier guys? or somebody that has moved up through the weights who has looked stronger and heavier hitting the heavier they fight??

Nobody had done to ODLH, Hatton or Cotto what the Pacman did ... and all guys had fought naturally heavier guys previously.

I really hope he is clean of any performace enhancing drugs - but if he turns down a $40million one off fight just over having his blood sampled ... it does make you very suspicious

So did Mayweather, at the same ages. The only difference is Mayweather fought in the amateurs at those weights, at 16 in 1993 Mayweather won the Michigan and National 106 pounds golden glove championships, what's the difference really?

floyd started 19yrs old at 130lb(superfeather) and not made s-feather since 2001 when he was 23yrs old.
Manny at 19yrs old was flyweight and last made superfeather in 2008 when he was 29yrs old .. bit of a difference yeah?

sg1985 wrote:

tonyevs wrote:

sg1985 wrote: So did Mayweather, at the same ages. The only difference is Mayweather fought in the amateurs at those weights, at 16 in 1993 Mayweather won the Michigan and National 106 pounds golden glove championships, what's the difference really?

floyd started 19yrs old at 130lb(superfeather) and not made s-feather since 2001 when he was 23yrs old.
Manny at 19yrs old was flyweight and last made superfeather in 2008 when he was 29yrs old .. bit of a difference yeah?

I just had a quick scan at Pacquiao's record, and you are right his last fight at flyweight was when he was 19, and he was ko'd by a body shot and then jumped two weight classes for his next fight, he skipped super flyweight and Bantamweight so do you think it's most likely he was had trouble making flyweight and that resulted in the ko by a bodyshot? I would like to know how a 16 year old kid can make 106 and them 3 years later be fighting at 130, It took Pacquiao 10 years to get up to 130, how can Mayweather do it in 3 years? He must have been on HGH. How ridiculous does that sound? As ridiculous as being suspicious of Pacquiao, both at 16 fought at 106, both are now fighting at 147, Mayweather has even been upto to 154, I don't actually see a difference there as to why only one is being accused and the other isn't, and Mayweather is the one who recently struggled to make 144, Pacquiao has been 145 for both of his Welterweight fights and dropped to 140 inbetween them.

?

All this talk does is show up the poor standards of drug testing in our sport. Not only is the testing inadequate, the penalties for those caught are inadequate too. I guess it stems from not having a defining governing body.
The kind of testing that Mayweather is asking for wouldn't effect preparation much anyway. I took part in a study which involved giving a fair amount of blood during high intensity training sessions without any ill effects at all.
For me it all kinda puts a big cloud over all Pac's achieved.