BoxRec

G0mez wrote:I think if Enzo made it to the later rounds he could have beaten Haye.

Even Calzaghe snr said so (so dont mock me)

I think if Peter McNeeley made it into the later rounds he could have beaten Tyson.

I'm pretty sure Vinnie Vehicone (McNeeley's trainer) thought the same.

What a joke. Enzo Cazlaghe does not help himself at times with such comments!

He's still untested in the HW division. I think Adamek would be a good fight for him, it would be alot more exciting than Valuev thats for sure. Macca felly was crap, he was never world class to begin with. As soon as any half decent heavyweight clocks him he'll go out like a light. Ruiz will test him more than Barratt or Valuev ever did.

skelp wrote:He's still untested in the HW division. I think Adamek would be a good fight for him, it would be alot more exciting than Valuev thats for sure. Macca felly was crap, he was never world class to begin with. As soon as any half decent heavyweight clocks him he'll go out like a light. Ruiz will test him more than Barratt or Valuev ever did.

x2

still very early days to judge haye at heavyweight .. sad thing is there isn`t much out there outside of the Klitschko bros for him to try to prove anything against ..

Haye was my favourite Brit fighter ... before the Valuev contest :(

At the moment I would say he is good maybe top 20 p4p but if he beats both the Klitschko's he'll be in the top 5 imo

alexpaterson wrote:At the moment I would say he is good maybe top 20 p4p but if he beats both the Klitschko's he'll be in the top 5 imo

Top 20 at the moment?

I hope not .. cos what state must boxing be in if thats true

I`d like to think I could name 20 guys below lightweight more deserving than Haye to be in the top 20 P4P

tonyevs wrote:

alexpaterson wrote:At the moment I would say he is good maybe top 20 p4p but if he beats both the Klitschko's he'll be in the top 5 imo

Top 20 at the moment?

I hope not .. cos what state must boxing be in if thats true

I`d like to think I could name 20 guys below lightweight more deserving than Haye to be in the top 20 P4P

Well he unified the Cruiseweight division and then won a title at Heavyweight I think he's deserving of a place top 20 p4p at the moment

If he had cleared out the cruiserweight division .. worked his way into contention at heavyweight .. then won the title from a half decent champ then I`d agree with you .. sadly he did neither

I agree he should of done both but I still think he should be top 20 he beat a recognised Heavyweight Champion and Unified the Cruiserweight division

In this modern day of multiple titles. Merely holding a world title belt means very little to the real worth of a boxer.

I suppose but if he beats the Klitschko's he deserves a top 10 imo

alexpaterson wrote:I suppose but if he beats the Klitschko's he deserves a top 10 imo

If he does .. then we would both be close to agreeing

he's very good. we have to put it in perspective that he was a 190-pound skinny cruiserweight at one point. and he went on to win cruiserweight titles, becoming beyond doubt The Man at his weight; and beat the biggest heavyweight champ of all time, pretty much one-handed, and wobbling him at the end, suggesting there is better to come.

should we specify a bit - how good aheavyweight, how good a cruiserweight, how good in p4p terms?

what i want to know: can he throw more than 10 punches a round if he knows he's going the distance? can he really put it on the line, and commit to a big offensive attack vs a big heavyweight? will he just make sure he emerges with good looks unscathed up at heavyweight (bit unfair, looking back at gory battle with Frago), or will he really get stuck in at some point?

Autobarn wrote:he's very good. we have to put it in perspective that he was a 190-pound skinny cruiserweight at one point. and he went on to win cruiserweight titles, becoming beyond doubt The Man at his weight; and beat the biggest heavyweight champ of all time, pretty much one-handed, and wobbling him at the end, suggesting there is better to come.

umm? how many top world class cruisers did he fight? not many was it .. so in all fairness he didn`t do or prove very much at the weight .. basically all he done was win a title at the weight. A weight that has always been pretty thin on tallent if truth be told. If he had made a couple defences against the top contenders before moving up, then I would hold more worth to his being a cruiser world champ.
And Valuev was the biggest champ of all time .. he was also the worst champ of all time .. so once again the achievment is tarnished. And as for the broken hand excuse ... he fought the 1st round exactly like he fought the last round .. deathly boring .. so it doesn`t really ring true to me if his hand really went in the 2nd or 3rd rnd as he claims. Lets be honest it could have very easilly have gone when he landed that Hayemaker in the last. So why didn`t he try the same Hayemaker in the 1st before the hand was supposed to have broke? ;;-)

Autobarn wrote: should we specify a bit - how good aheavyweight, how good a cruiserweight, how good in p4p terms?.

Heavyweight? from what I`ve seen. By todays comparisons .. a pretty good one. Judging him against yesteryears heavies ... very average.
Cruiserweight? A very good cruiserweight. With excellent power .. dodgy chin.

Autobarn wrote: what i want to know: can he throw more than 10 punches a round if he knows he's going the distance? can he really put it on the line, and commit to a big offensive attack vs a big heavyweight? will he just make sure he emerges with good looks unscathed up at heavyweight (bit unfair, looking back at gory battle with Frago), or will he really get stuck in at some point?

Hard to tell from 3fights he has had at the weight.

tonyevs wrote:If he had cleared out the cruiserweight division .. worked his way into contention at heavyweight .. then won the title from a half decent champ then I`d agree with you .. sadly he did neither

he didn't need to clean out the division. he won a title - the main belts - and all the other champs like guillermo jones were just supporting players. he took the biggest, most lucrative fight vs the biggest puncher available, macca, and won inside the distance.

it wasn't until cunningham and adamek stepped up, for the ring mag title, that a worthy opponent emerged. alas, that was for the ring mag title vacated by haye.

i don't know where haye ranks p4p, i think the list needs a massive shakeup in 2010 with far too many old names lingering. i wouldn't be surprised if names like haye, martinez, adamek, tim badley, hozimu hasegawa, started to get the recognition their talents deserved.

back speciifcally to haye. his EBU title run also merits consideration: he stopped a top 10 cruiser gurov in 1, he outlasted future WBC cruiser champ fragomeni in a war, took some unbeaten records - actually EARNED a world title shot...so does the fact that he won the WBA heavyweight title on PTS, in germany, where you don't win on the cards, vs a 300-pound, 7' giant.

Haye should be included on every fight fans favourite fighter list.

He has the Arturo Gatti appeal.

Im not sure how i'd rate him amongst the planets elite fighters because he has only fought one elite fighter in Mormeck, who gave Haye some momentary trouble.

Im still in the minority when I predict that David Haye would lose to Bernard Hopkins. Im certain of that result.

Overall, Haye is a good Heavyweight in a poor Heavyweight climate.

If he was around 15 years earlier then he'd be nowhere.

there is no haye v hopkins. haye told glyn leach, editor of boxing monthly, that he wouldn't consider the fight.

Autobarn wrote:there is no haye v hopkins. haye told glyn leach, editor of boxing monthly, that he wouldn't consider the fight.

Thanks or confirming that for me mate.

Would you give BHOP a cance tho pal????

Autobarn wrote:
back speciifcally to haye. his EBU title run also merits consideration: he stopped a top 10 cruiser gurov in 1, he outlasted future WBC cruiser champ fragomeni in a war, took some unbeaten records - actually EARNED a world title shot...so does the fact that he won the WBA heavyweight title on PTS, in germany, where you don't win on the cards, vs a 300-pound, 7' giant.

We seem to be back to where we once was my friend ..

Gurov? .. that kinda proves the point I earlier made about the shallow depth of tallent in the cruiserweight division .. haye did what Dunstan had done 7 or 8yrs previous. Gurovs record clearly shows he can he stopped early .. it had been done 3 times before Haye turned the trick.
Fragomeni ? .. who won the title against a 14fight Rudolf Kraj .. a guy who was lucky to get the verdict then against Wlodarczyk(I googled how to spell that) .. and lost it against the 35yr old former WBO lightheavy champ Zsolt Erdei. This again only highlights the point about the significance of being a belt holder in the first place ...

And lets not forget. Evander Holyfield as washed up as he is ... did a better job on valuev a couple months earlier than Haye .. strangely though, he didn`t get the verdict.

i disagree with all you said there toney - vehemently.

holyfield didn't do a better job on valuev - this is some kind of sentimental/romantic thing going round &it's bollox. haye landed faster (obviously), better shots than holy did. and unike holy, unlike anyone, had valuev wobbling. haye pretty much beat a 300-pound man 1 handed, not even showing his best (a glimpse of which we saw at the end).

is cruiser a terrible division? gurov is a good fighter, yes can be stopped early, but was beating a prime mormeck pretty convincingly, bending mormeck double with body shots, before getting stopped late. fact is, he put up a good challenge to a good champ, was a dangerous puncher, and deserved a top 10 world ranking. which he had, when haye stopped him.

frag is a good little fighter. he was backing up kraj, who had just beaten american talent godfrey, before head clashes. he is really a blown up light heavy, so he did damn well to give haye problems. was he lucky to draw with wlod, is that a fact? i recall frag staging some tremendous rallies after being hurt. frag's fight with erdei is the best fight of 2009 in terms of sustained action, who cares about their ages? it was a superb boxing match from both sides. because they're not yanks or mexicans, their fight is being downplayed.

it proves that haye was taking hard, world class fights before he even got to the world title. which is perhaps why he need not have cleaned out the division. because he'd already stopped 4 guys - mormeck, macca, gurov, frago - who at one point or another were legit top 10 cruisers.

I think Haye is great and i'm a fan of his.

Positives?

Well he is amazingly fast, skilled and conditioned for a heavyweight. He can talk a good 'en and get inside his opponents minds. He can really bang and has that venom when he needs it, but also sticks to a plan when he needs to, therefore proving he is disciplined.

Negatives:

Small at the weight. His chin is very suspect and has been dropped there and everywhere from Lolenga Mock to some roofer in the amateurs.

Overall:

The chin will always be his achilles heel. If he can take / avoid the big shots and do battle he should do well.

I just hope i never hear Jim Watt saying "He's hurt ! he's hurt ! he's badly shaken!" before Ian Darke says "Oh no, the referee could stop this!"

Judging by the comments here

Most people dont rate Haye as highly as a Lennox Lewis or a Larry Holmes or a Riddick Bowe

But that he is a OK heavyweight in a current poor division - so should take advantage

However lets remeber that Lennox Lewis was only just able to fend off Vitali Klitschko - so how is Haye going to match that ?

Haye has tarnished Vitalis career by saying his main boast is that he gave Lennox Lewis a fight - a fight he lost and was bashed up in

But Vitali has done alot more than that - he was a WBO Champion - who destroyed Herbie Hide who had a simliar profile to Haye in size and strength and also destroyed Danny Williams - two UK heavyweights there totally outclassed by Vitali

Vitali has won WBC title- and made many defences and beaten good fighters like Corrie Saunders

Only ever been stopped by injuries

His C.V at heavyweight is much more accoplished than Hayes C.V at Crusierweight and Heavyweight put together

david haye has had a more eventful career than vitali, arguably. vitali didn't make "many title defenses" - because he took 4 years off. vitali wants to fight valuev, FFS. yes, vitali has the big prize, he has HBO backing him, he has loads of money from german TV. but haye's career has by far been the more spectacular. his KOs are more decisive, his fights have been more exciting, etc.

i hope vitali goes for the haye fight. all haye has to do is inflict some decent damage. he'll probably lose, but my bet is vitali will have lost the stomach for combat. he was feeling sorry for himself in the kevin johnson fight, cos he was frustrated and had a bit of eye damage.

My problem with Haye is, he is too much in love with money, and giving the fans as little as possible.

I know he beat Valuev but in my opinion he did just enough to win, someone with the mentality of a Nigel Benn would have decided fairly early he could kayo this guy and put on a show. David didnt risk that.

He talks of beating a Klitchko and than retiring.

Where will that leave heavyweight boxing? in a worse state than it has been the last 6-7 years.

Id like Haye to meet both Klitchko's and than embark on a Muhammed Ali style schedule post Zaire of knotching up a quick 10 defences and travelling the world to make the HW division popular again.

But that wont happen in this age of guys like haye and Vitali fighting once a year.

Someone like Benn had fifty fights.

To they're great credit Vital and Wladimir also have wanted to fight everyone.

On the great assumption Haye does beat a Klitchko and than retires, how would u rate a guy who only really beat 2-3 good fighters (Mormeck,Valuev and Klitchko), and took the money and ran?

I guess some people are just staunch haye supporters and refuse to look deeper at his achievments.

I too was a big, big haye fan. I had my hayemaker t-shirt on pre-order no less ... sadly the valuev contest(I refuse to refer to it as a fight) turned me off Haye. The myth is almost set in stone how he broke his hand in the 2nd or 3rd .. but there is no proof
Sure he broke his hand sometime in the fight .. but it could have been the 12th.

The fight followed the same boring repetitive scenario round after round after round after round after round after roun .....
If Haye could land that excellent punch in the 12th - with a supposed broken hand - why didn`t he land it in the 1st or 2nd before the hand is supposed to have broke? its not as if the fight was playing out and different..

And if his hand was good enough for such a Hayemaker in the 12th .. why didn`t he follow it up????????????????????????????????????????????

Thats my last reply on this thread

i agree, it was boring. i was agitated throughout the fight, wanting much more, but at the same time feeling he was doing ewnough. the problem is the massive expectations, and then the lack of activity. he can't keep doing that, but then again his opponent will be amore normal size in future. it does raise the question for me? is he willing to put it all on the line, if the circumstances require it? or is he willing to coast, is he an "i'm alright jack" type?