BoxRec

Goodnight, Irene wrote:"We'll have to agree to disagree on this one - I was just watching some of Frazier's old fights a couple weeks ago - Love his motor.....but I think he went wide with his hook, often.......and while he hit harder shot for shot (meaning he loaded up more often with it)......Evander's hook had more than enough pop to stop Frazier....and when Holy sat down on the hook in an exchange he brought it.....Evander hooked off the jab better...and cleaned up combinations better off the hook as well.....IMO.

Evander wouldn't have a fight plan that relied on his hook alone...he had more offensive assets than did Frazier, combination punching, better jab, physically stronger and a chin to stand and trade....and that is where he beats fraizer...during exchanges Holy's hook would get there first more often than not...." - Meade95

Where I'll agree with you is that Holyfield's hook was, for mine, technically the superior punch. It was a little (not a lot, but noticeably, nonetheless) shorter, maybe faster, & less predictable overall --- you could always see Frazier's hook preceded by rapid up-&-down bobbing (watch for it yourself, it's particularly noticeable in the third fight with Ali). Of course, Holyfield's hook wasn't, for mine, close to as brutally damaging as Frazier's, so it loses a little ground there. By & large, I take your point, though.

Where I'll disagree is that Holyfield can stand & trade, indefinitely, with Frazier. The reason is the bodyattack. Bowe showed what a consistent, hardened assault to the ribs can do to Holyfield, whose ribs don't equal his chin, for mine. The guy tired when faced with a man who could really work his mid-section --- no Heavyweight in history did it better, in my view, than Frazier. Holyfield loses a brawl in the long run. He'd look flashy earlier, & better at times, but, down the stretch, I can't see him, "out-punching" Frazier.

Good points on going to the body being key if Frazier were to win - Bowe did bust up Holy to the body - Though where I'm not sure I agree with you...is in the notion of tiring.... We have to compare apples to apples here - Holyfield showed signs of tiring and wearing out later in his career...when he was 33/34 + years old. Fraizer never even fought to that age - He in relaity retired in 75/76 at the age of what was that 32 year old.

Holyfield went 15 rounds (last championship fight to go 15 rounds) in a war with Dwight Qawi - Holyfield showed Vs Dokes as well as with Bowe (think 10th round after being rocked and coming back at the end) that he could go a full hard 12 rounds (or 15) in his prime days......

I think a Frazier Vs Holyfield fight comes down to if Frazier could do enough damage to the body.....or would Holy's faster hands, better chin and physical strength advantage (when inside) out weigh that...... For me, I'd take Holyfield more often than not during exchanges....and that eventually putting Frazier down or busted up enough to win a close Dec......It would be a war no matter what........I think we can all agree on that...

Absolutely, it would. It's an all-timer, in the action-department. One of those mythical match-ups where you could price ringside seats in the highest possible category (let's say you had a tier system for mythical tickets --- this'd be in the highest possible bracket).

I don't feel Holyfield showed the lungs at Heavyweight he did at Cruiser, so I tend to over-look the fight with Qawi a bit in my reasoning. Perhaps it was the extra weight, or the fact he was being hit by bigger men, but, for mine, Holyfield's path to victory is in a slower-paced, clinch-filled fight. A mauling, wrestling battle, not unlike what he did to Tyson, first-time around. I thought he looked tired against Bowe in their first fight, when he was still quite arguably in his prime --- now, Bowe leaned on Holyfield a bit, which saps strength, & is something Frazier couldn't do, but, you have to concede, as fast & furious as that fight was, there were more lulls in action on Bowe's part than Frazier would ever permit to slip into his game. Holyfield would have to fight at a faster pace than ever before, if he decided to box & slug with Frazier.

I just don't think he has the lungs, especially with Frazier's rib-work, which I think he'd be able to get going in this fight. Holyfield's best bet for the win, IMO, is the gameplan I outlined above, & in all likelihood (as far as I'm concerned), it's exclusive to a twelve-rounder. Frazier's just too well-conditioned & too busy to lose through fifteen.

What a fight. Regardless of the distance, I can't see Frazier finishing this fight without at least one, & probably both, eyes nearly completely closed. Holyfield had great combinations, & they'd definitely mark Frazier in this kind of fight. Holyfield is going to piss blood for a fortnight, the way he stands & trades. Can you imagine Lou Duva in the corner just before the last round!? He'd be going ballistic trying to rev Holyfield up for a big finish

dempseyfire wrote:

dberry wrote:I like this thread as I believe the Holyfield/Tyson/L.Lewis/Bowe/Ruddick/Moorer etc.etc. era was the greatest heavyweight era, although I'm only old enough to remember the tail end of the Ali era.

One thing to take into account is size, Liston for example was really a light heavy who didn't have to try and make weight. .

What on earth are you talking about? Liston was a BIG natural heavyweight who trained his ass off to get to a svelte 210 lbs. He would've died if he'd gotten down to 175. Back then the wide majority of elite heavyweights trained to get as lean as possible while retaining strength to maxmized speed and stamina. By far the bigger man than Evander who had to undergoe extensive diet and strength programs to get above 200 lbs. Holyfield actually walking around outside of training camp TODAY in his 40s only weighs about 200 lbs.

Sorry, my mistake, I sprouted off totaly ill informed. It was Floyd Patterson and Rocky Marciano who where small heavy weights.

I knew that Holy field was pumped up cruiser, I imagine he followed the money up to heavy weight.

meade95 wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

meade95 wrote: I think Holyfield had the better left hook. Threw it better, more precise and got from point A to point B a tad quicker.O

I'll just say I STRONGLY disagree with this assertion. Frazier's left hook was just as precise, just as fast, and much MUCH harder. If Evander wants to hook with Frazier he will be on the losing end of that battle.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one - I was just watching some of Frazier's old fights a couple weeks ago - Love his motor.....but I think he went wide with his hook, often.......and while he hit harder shot for shot (meaning he loaded up more often with it)......Evander's hook had more than enough pop to stop Frazier....and when Holy sat down on the hook in an exchange he brought it.....Evander hooked off the jab better...and cleaned up combinations better off the hook as well.....IMO.

Evander wouldn't have a fight plan that relied on his hook alone...he had more offensive assets than did Frazier, combination punching, better jab, physically stronger and a chin to stand and trade....and that is where he beats fraizer...during exchanges Holy's hook would get there first more often than not....

Frazier's chin was as good as Evanders IMO . . .I don't see a past it Holyfield lasting many rounds with a peak Foreman either. Holyfield does not have the power to do more than stun Frazier.
Don't watch a fat past it Frazier in the Thrilla . . .watch his hooks in Quarry I, parts of Ali 1, Ellis etc. . . the thing was a bullet and he could shoot it short or long. He dug in with it more and had much stronger legs than Evander which is partly why his hooks did more damage.

In my opinion Holyfield threw a cleaner more technical left hook.
Frazier, the peak version, threw a sharp jolting hook, he could
double up nicely with it and added good variety with both hands.

Frazier tended to throw a longer left hook later in his career.
But like DF said the late 60s Frazier had a nasty sudden left hook.

Personally I think both have very nice left hooks.

Robinson wrote:In my opinion Holyfield threw a cleaner more technical left hook.
Frazier, the peak version, threw a sharp jolting hook, he could
double up nicely with it and added good variety with both hands.

Frazier tended to throw a longer left hook later in his career.
But like DF said the late 60s Frazier had a nasty sudden left hook.

Personally I think both have very nice left hooks.

Frazier's is a knockout punch, though --- Holyfield's isn't.

I do think Evander can manhandle Frazier though. Ali was able to manhandle Frazier in ll and lll and Holyfield was able to manhandle Tyson. I see Frazier getting tied up a lot. I don't know how that would affect the outcome.

Interesting fight but Holy is no pushover.

Holyfield would be able to tie up Frazier, but not over the full distance. Tyson was open to it because he simply stopped punching. Frazier never would. Holyfield needs to work 180 seconds of every round --- he never liked to do that as a Heavyweight, & those fights were against men who never had Frazier's output.

It's going to tell on his lungs. Mark my words --- this fight would come down to conditioning, & that's where Holyfield'd lose it.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Holyfield would be able to tie up Frazier, but not over the full distance. Tyson was open to it because he simply stopped punching. Frazier never would. Holyfield needs to work 180 seconds of every round --- he never liked to do that as a Heavyweight, & those fights were against men who never had Frazier's output.

It's going to tell on his lungs. Mark my words --- this fight would come down to conditioning, & that's where Holyfield'd lose it.

34 years and younger Holyfield had more than a gas tank to go a full hard 12/15 rounds. He did so Vs bigger men to boot. Holyfield would find Frazier easier to deal with in many aspects because simply of the size and physical strength differences. Holy showed numerous times the ability to reach deep and come on late in brutal fights (be it Vs Qawi, Dokes, Bowe, Tyson, Stewert, foreman) As you said earlier Fraizer wouldn't be able to simply lean and wear on Hoyfield (like many of the other bigs guys - especially in the clinch).....Holyfield's power would be at its peak....simply because he would be punching down, to a man his size / weight wise and shorter on top of that. Holyfield had more than enough power to hurt and stop Frazier late / IMO. and I contend if Frazier wants to eat Holy's jab all night and then try and exchange inside hook for hook.... Holy is going to win that battle more often than not.

Now with that said.....without a doubt this type of fight would be a toss-up going in. Either man on the right night walks out of the ring with thier hand raised.....

meade95 wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Holyfield would be able to tie up Frazier, but not over the full distance. Tyson was open to it because he simply stopped punching. Frazier never would. Holyfield needs to work 180 seconds of every round --- he never liked to do that as a Heavyweight, & those fights were against men who never had Frazier's output.

It's going to tell on his lungs. Mark my words --- this fight would come down to conditioning, & that's where Holyfield'd lose it.

34 years and younger Holyfield had more than a gas tank to go a full hard 12/15 rounds. He did so Vs bigger men to boot. Holyfield would find Frazier easier to deal with in many aspects because simply of the size and physical strength differences. Holy showed numerous times the ability to reach deep and come on late in brutal fights (be it Vs Qawi, Dokes, Bowe, Tyson, Stewert, foreman) As you said earlier Fraizer wouldn't be able to simply lean and wear on Hoyfield (like many of the other bigs guys - especially in the clinch).....Holyfield's power would be at its peak....simply because he would be punching down, to a man his size / weight wise and shorter on top of that. Holyfield had more than enough power to hurt and stop Frazier late / IMO. and I contend if Frazier wants to eat Holy's jab all night and then try and exchange inside hook for hook.... Holy is going to win that battle more often than not.

Now with that said.....without a doubt this type of fight would be a toss-up going in. Either man on the right night walks out of the ring with thier hand raised.....

Holyfield had such success with bigger, usually out of shape guys like Mercer who Evander could out work late to beat. Frazier would be Evander's worst nightmare in that he'd be facing a guy who wouldn't let him take his rests and breaks like he always did throughout his career at heavyweight. Holyfield usually had the stamina advantage over his opponents but he wouldn't vs Frazier.
Frazier fought and succeeded on the inside with men stronger than Holyfield (Ali, Bonevena, Chuvalo) . . you seem to over-rate Holyfield's strength, I don't remember him 'bullying' anybody on the inside besides Tyson who Buster friggin' Mathis Jr. was bullying on the inside before he got KO'd. Tyson was always incredibly easy to tie up.

ThatOne wrote:Gene Tunney

Max Baer

Joe Louis

Rocky Marciano

Floyd Patterson

Sonny Liston

Joe Frazier

George Foreman

Muhammad Ali

Larry Holmes (Prime)

IMHO, he goes 3-7

I have him at 2-8 and say he only beats Baer and Patterson, however I don't believe he get's knocked out in any of these.

The End wrote:

ThatOne wrote:Gene Tunney

Max Baer

Joe Louis

Rocky Marciano

Floyd Patterson

Sonny Liston

Joe Frazier

George Foreman

Muhammad Ali

Larry Holmes (Prime)

IMHO, he goes 3-7

I have him at 2-8 and say he only beats Baer and Patterson, however I don't believe he get's knocked out in any of these.

He whups Rocky. They are even in chin and heart. Everything else Holy is Rock's superior.

ThatOne wrote:

The End wrote:

ThatOne wrote:Gene Tunney

Max Baer

Joe Louis

Rocky Marciano

Floyd Patterson

Sonny Liston

Joe Frazier

George Foreman

Muhammad Ali

Larry Holmes (Prime)

IMHO, he goes 3-7

I have him at 2-8 and say he only beats Baer and Patterson, however I don't believe he get's knocked out in any of these.

He whups Rocky. They are even in chin and heart. Everything else Holy is Rock's superior.

I actually favor Holyfield in the chin department.

I would give Marciano the edge in power,conditioning and strategy.

Holyfield instead of boxing decides to slug with Marciano and takes more lumps than he dishes out.

Marciano UD.

TheEnd...

You expect Foreman (the prime version) to out-point Holyfield over fifteen rounds?

ThatOne...

You think Holyfield (at Heavyweight) has better endurance & punching power than Marciano?

Goodnight, Irene wrote:TheEnd...

You expect Foreman (the prime version) to out-point Holyfield over fifteen rounds?

ThatOne...

You think Holyfield (at Heavyweight) has better endurance & punching power than Marciano?

Yep, I predict it to be like the Lyle fight.

ThatOne wrote:

The End wrote:

ThatOne wrote:Gene Tunney

Max Baer

Joe Louis

Rocky Marciano

Floyd Patterson

Sonny Liston

Joe Frazier

George Foreman

Muhammad Ali

Larry Holmes (Prime)

IMHO, he goes 3-7

I have him at 2-8 and say he only beats Baer and Patterson, however I don't believe he get's knocked out in any of these.

He whups Rocky. They are even in chin and heart. Everything else Holy is Rock's superior.

Marciano was by far the bigger puncher. Both in the same realm defensively although I'll give Evander just a slight edge based on his footwork (Rocky had better head movement though) Marciano also superior in stamina/conditioning. Holyfield with a clear speed advantage.

I like Marciano big vs Evander. Like Frazier, Holyfield would not get away with his 'freezes' and defensive lapses vs non-stop punching machines like Frazier and Marciano.

I rewatched Tyson-Holyfield I recently and I have to say in retropspect that win was blown way out of proportion. LOTS of heavyweights would've beaten Tyson that night.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Robinson wrote:In my opinion Holyfield threw a cleaner more technical left hook.
Frazier, the peak version, threw a sharp jolting hook, he could
double up nicely with it and added good variety with both hands.

Frazier tended to throw a longer left hook later in his career.
But like DF said the late 60s Frazier had a nasty sudden left hook.

Personally I think both have very nice left hooks.

Frazier's is a knockout punch, though --- Holyfield's isn't.

Frazier did not KO every man he landed it on.

No, but it was by far the more likely shot to produce a KO against top-flight opponents.

The End wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:TheEnd...

You expect Foreman (the prime version) to out-point Holyfield over fifteen rounds?

ThatOne...

You think Holyfield (at Heavyweight) has better endurance & punching power than Marciano?

Yep, I predict it to be like the Lyle fight.

I'm more confused than ever.

ThatOne wrote:Gene Tunney

Max Baer KO4

Joe Louis W15

Rocky Marciano W15

Floyd Patterson KO10

Sonny Liston KO7

Joe Frazier KO13

George Foreman KO5

Muhammad Ali L15

Larry Holmes (Prime) L15

IMHO, he goes 3-7

I always envisioned holyfield vs michael spinks that would have been a great matchup

ThatOne wrote:Gene Tunney

Max Baer

Joe Louis

Rocky Marciano

Floyd Patterson

Sonny Liston

Joe Frazier

George Foreman

Muhammad Ali

Larry Holmes (Prime)

IMHO, he goes 3-7

holyfield wins decisions against them all.
except patterson whom he stops inside 6 (being generous to floyd).
maybe ali and holmes had a chance of winning a close decision against him.

I think he loses to Louis and Liston for sure...

He beats Baer, Foreman and Paterson...

The rest would all be close fights.

manage a troix wrote:

ThatOne wrote:Gene Tunney

Max Baer

Joe Louis

Rocky Marciano

Floyd Patterson

Sonny Liston

Joe Frazier

George Foreman

Muhammad Ali

Larry Holmes (Prime)

IMHO, he goes 3-7

holyfield wins decisions against them all.
except patterson whom he stops inside 6 (being generous to floyd).
maybe ali and holmes had a chance of winning a close decision against him.

You know if I didn't know any better I'd say you were trolling.

Grimm wrote:

manage a troix wrote:

ThatOne wrote:Gene Tunney

Max Baer

Joe Louis

Rocky Marciano

Floyd Patterson

Sonny Liston

Joe Frazier

George Foreman

Muhammad Ali

Larry Holmes (Prime)

IMHO, he goes 3-7

holyfield wins decisions against them all.
except patterson whom he stops inside 6 (being generous to floyd).
maybe ali and holmes had a chance of winning a close decision against him.

You know if I didn't know any better I'd say you were trolling.

I would just ignore his posts, he's clearly here trying to ruffle feathers.

Holyfield beats the prime Foreman?

Not in this universe.