BoxRec

pjonesy wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Did you see the Brewster fight? You don't think any of that was mental? He had an anxiety attack in the middle of a fight he was dominating.

The Purrity loss wasn't much different and he was teetering on the brink against Williamson & Peter.

I've never seen him in an adverse situation without urine in his shoe.

Yes, the Brewster fight was a disaster. I agree with you about his mental shortcomings. My point is that if he is already mentally fragile, how could he possibly face any of these guys with any conviction? He might not even show up.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I wouldn't rank him ahead of Frank Bruno. He has ZERO wins of note. Not a one, his defenses mean as much to me as Zsolt Erdei's.

dempseyfire wrote:I don't think it's too soon to analyse his 3 losses were utterly embarassing affairs, vs 3 opponents no-one had near the top 10 at the time, and his complete meltdowns under pressure. Nor the fairly poor quality of the comp he's beaten since Brewster 1. His best win remains a peak Byrd in 2000 which style-wise was a fight the defensive-minded, soft-punching Byrd had no chance in. And Byrd was a very good fighter but no-one mistakes him for hall of fame calibre.

Best Euro HW of all-time? I could never see myself ranking him over Schmeling.

Most accomplished Euro HW of all time considering title defenses etc. . . .he'll probably be. To me those are two different things especially when discussing fighters in this era.

HomicideHenry wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I wouldn't rank him ahead of Frank Bruno. He has ZERO wins of note. Not a one, his defenses mean as much to me as Zsolt Erdei's.

Now thats looking through Rose Colored glasses; least Vladimir's competition is KNOWN guys, Erdei might as well be fighting taxi drivers

pjonesy wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

pjonesy wrote: Yes, the Brewster fight was a disaster. I agree with you about his mental shortcomings. My point is that if he is already mentally fragile, how could he possibly face any of these guys with any conviction? He might not even show up.

Exactly, that's why I don't see how anyone can give him a prayer in those fights.

The bottom line is that Wlad is virtually the same size as Lewis. He may possess slightly less one punch power, but his punches are crisp and very accurate. It has been established that he has technical skills and offensive firepower. The chin and his defensive skills are certainly suspect. Your analysis of his heart and mind in the ring is spot on. What would he need to do to define his career? Make a comeback against someone of equal or greater standing in a fight that he is losing? Or, continue to plod through a HW division devoid of any real threat whatsoever, including a refusal to fight his brother under any circumstance? I'm not sure if there is anyone out there for him to fight that would elevate his status at all. Wlad needs a REAL, MEANINGFUL fight (or fights) in which to prove himself worthy of being a HW Champion.

pjonesy wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:I dont know quite how to feel about Vladimir Klitschko. I was once sold on him, believed him to be capable of beating Lennox Lewis, but then he was kayoed in two rounds to Corrie Sanders and later Lamon Brewster. Sure, he's regrouped, but I can't help remembering those times. I guess that's part of the reason why for many years I disregarded Lewis as well, despite avenging his two losses. But now I know better and accept Lewis as the best big heavyweight of all time.

Vladimir is 11-0-0 in title defenses, more or less, since kayoing Chris Byrd and has unified the WBO title as well, and might as well be given recognition as the WBA champion too, considering he stopped Chagaev despite the WBA not recognizing it as a title match. Once Vitali retires at the end of this year, take it at face value that Vladimir will be "the man" of the division for good, for nobody, not even David Haye, comes close to Vladimir's credentials.

I think, when he retires, he will have proven to been the best European heavyweight of all times. I can knock Klitschko for his cautious, boring, style; however, it works. I have never seen a heavyweight of his size, with the exception of his brother and Lennox, who have all the qualities he has. Against any of these men you mention, I think Klitschko gives them more problems than one generally gives him credit for. Still, I think its 60/40 in their favor over him.

Marciano, who said this of Muhammad Ali: "I think its just too early to really analyze", and I think in many ways, the same can be said of Vladimir.

You make some very good points. Saad certainly has the right to hold Wlad accountable for his performances. He has looked very fragile in many fights where he needed to step up his competitive fire. I have no problem with the criticism of Wlad, it is certainly warranted. But, HomicideHenry it seems that you are looking more at his potential. I agree that Wlad has all the athletic tools to be a tremendous Champion. I like that you said, "Klitschko gives them more more problems than one generally gives him credit for". Wlad is 6'6, 245 pounds. FACT!!!! Floyd Patterson was 6'0, and NEVER weighed 200 pounds. FACT!!!! Floyd Patterson NEVER fought anyone 225 pounds! FACT!!!! He fought Charley Polite. You know Charley Polite don't you? He was 6'3, 222 pounds with a record of 39 LOSSES! Wlad beat the poop out of Chris Byrd(6'0, 213). Do some people out there really believe that Patterson could do anything to hurt Wlad? Patterson had none of the power of Joe Louis or Marciano so don't even mention that! Just because of his size and his cautious style he would have an immediate advantage over 4 or 5 of these guys. I DO NOT think that Wlad would beat the rest of the guys on the list, but with his physical tools and ability he could be competitive. Think about it this way. If by some chance Wlad put a 5 punch combination together and solidly hit, lets say Holyfield, with every punch. You are telling me that he would have no chance to win? But, he is so cowardly, he might not show up. In all seriousness, there is no one out there right now that is anywhere close to the caliber of fighters on this list (Patterson as well; GREAT boxer, small, not enough power). Wlad does have very little intestinal fortitude, and under stress looks like the proverbial deer in the headlights. But, he is capable of hurting anybody and has knockout power. I can say with conviction that at least he isn't ducking anybody. Yes, i am aware that there is no one out there to duck.

HomicideHenry wrote:

pjonesy wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:I dont know quite how to feel about Vladimir Klitschko. I was once sold on him, believed him to be capable of beating Lennox Lewis, but then he was kayoed in two rounds to Corrie Sanders and later Lamon Brewster. Sure, he's regrouped, but I can't help remembering those times. I guess that's part of the reason why for many years I disregarded Lewis as well, despite avenging his two losses. But now I know better and accept Lewis as the best big heavyweight of all time.

Vladimir is 11-0-0 in title defenses, more or less, since kayoing Chris Byrd and has unified the WBO title as well, and might as well be given recognition as the WBA champion too, considering he stopped Chagaev despite the WBA not recognizing it as a title match. Once Vitali retires at the end of this year, take it at face value that Vladimir will be "the man" of the division for good, for nobody, not even David Haye, comes close to Vladimir's credentials.

I think, when he retires, he will have proven to been the best European heavyweight of all times. I can knock Klitschko for his cautious, boring, style; however, it works. I have never seen a heavyweight of his size, with the exception of his brother and Lennox, who have all the qualities he has. Against any of these men you mention, I think Klitschko gives them more problems than one generally gives him credit for. Still, I think its 60/40 in their favor over him.

Marciano, who said this of Muhammad Ali: "I think its just too early to really analyze", and I think in many ways, the same can be said of Vladimir.

You make some very good points. Saad certainly has the right to hold Wlad accountable for his performances. He has looked very fragile in many fights where he needed to step up his competitive fire. I have no problem with the criticism of Wlad, it is certainly warranted. But, HomicideHenry it seems that you are looking more at his potential. I agree that Wlad has all the athletic tools to be a tremendous Champion. I like that you said, "Klitschko gives them more more problems than one generally gives him credit for". Wlad is 6'6, 245 pounds. FACT!!!! Floyd Patterson was 6'0, and NEVER weighed 200 pounds. FACT!!!! Floyd Patterson NEVER fought anyone 225 pounds! FACT!!!! He fought Charley Polite. You know Charley Polite don't you? He was 6'3, 222 pounds with a record of 39 LOSSES! Wlad beat the poop out of Chris Byrd(6'0, 213). Do some people out there really believe that Patterson could do anything to hurt Wlad? Patterson had none of the power of Joe Louis or Marciano so don't even mention that! Just because of his size and his cautious style he would have an immediate advantage over 4 or 5 of these guys. I DO NOT think that Wlad would beat the rest of the guys on the list, but with his physical tools and ability he could be competitive. Think about it this way. If by some chance Wlad put a 5 punch combination together and solidly hit, lets say Holyfield, with every punch. You are telling me that he would have no chance to win? But, he is so cowardly, he might not show up. In all seriousness, there is no one out there right now that is anywhere close to the caliber of fighters on this list (Patterson as well; GREAT boxer, small, not enough power). Wlad does have very little intestinal fortitude, and under stress looks like the proverbial deer in the headlights. But, he is capable of hurting anybody and has knockout power. I can say with conviction that at least he isn't ducking anybody. Yes, i am aware that there is no one out there to duck.

he can be exciting [remember his 6th round destruction of Mercer]he fought courageously against Peter and ever since he hasn't come close to defea The list has shown he has annihilated the abortions in boxing, and he's showing that he is the better fighter than his brother Vitali. H2H Vitali beats Wladimir, yes, but when it comes to overall skill and saavy fighting ability, Wladimir is the best heavyweight on the planet bar none.

I rest my case.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:The thread starter threw him in deep and I simply don't need to see anymore of Wlad to know that those guys would hand him his head. Don't kid yourself, the 37yr old Holyfield from the Lewis fights would starch this clown.

Put Wlad against

Frank Bruno

Tommy Morrison

Ron Lyle

Razor Ruddock

Tim Witherspoon

Ernie Terrell

I think he would lose more than he would win against these guys, but I'd be willing to listen. Wlad vs Foreman is a destruction, 300 times out of 300.

pjonesy wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:So now you are talking about the law of averages? So if he fought them all 20 times he might beat them once. Thats a different tune that you said earlier when you pcicked over Holyfield, would barely lose to Holmes and would have a good chance against Tyson.
Sure the other guy could get a cut, the referee could could do something stupid, the other guy could break his ankle.

Outside of something bizarre like that, Klitschko would not be much of a threat. Size and his alleged athletic ability don't automatically make him a threat. There is a lot more to boxing than that.
He is not in tremendous condition. He used to fight a fast pace and then would tire out if he didn't stop the other guy early. Now he fights at a very slow pace so he doesn't get tired.

Clear that Klitschko had very good hand speed? Compared to what, a statue?

Yes Klitschko is a hard puncher. Guess what, all of these guys (except for Patterson) had very good chins. The chances of him knocking them out are remote even if he landed a good combination before they hit him. He is tall. So what? He isn't going to be able to keep these guys off him with his jab.

You picked him to beat Holyfield because Holyfield couldn't handle Lennox Lewis? A prime Holyfield would be all over him. A 36 year old Holyfield almost beat Lewis in the 2nd fight (could have got the decision.) Klitschko ain't no Lennox Lewis Lewis.

You think he would give Larry Holmes a lot of trouble? Please. Holmes chin was more than good enough to take Klitschko's shots if he landed anything substantial. Holmes would have no trouble outboxing him.

Liston, Foreman, and Tyson would stop him early with brutal knockouts. With his chin, stamina problems, and defense it's doubtful he goes the distance with anyone mentioned.

Are you capable of understanding anything? If you want to confront me, quote the entire post and leave it right above yours. Quit picking out portions, misquoting me, taking things out of context and spinning it to fit your argument so that you can continue keep your rank as president of your own fan club. The law of averages indicates distinct advantages and disadvantages within the context of a situation. I am not referring to them fighting 20 times?! Wlad would have distinct advantages against anyone 6'0 or under, specifically Patterson. An example would be Joe Frazier against George Foreman. Joe Frazier was a better boxer, had more experience, had never been knocked out and was the current champ. George Foreman was taller, bigger and stronger. It did not matter that George's defense was not that great and it did not matter if he had a good chin or not. Joe did not touch him. George simply overwhelmed him. Also, Wlad is trained by Emmanuel Steward. Have you heard of that guy? Since you THINK that you are so well versed in boxing knowledge and you THINK that you are an expert boxing analyst why don't you call up Emmanuel and educate him on Wlad's defensive weaknesses and your CLINICAL observation that Wlad has lost hand speed and stamina. I'm sure he would just pack his bags and drop Wlad like a bad habit if he had the insight and perspective you do! All the comments you are making are based on things that cannot be measured or proved in any way. The only factors that can be measured are dimensions, common opponents, similarly sized opponents and results. You are creating a work of fiction. I admit it, i did the same thing when i gave my opinion on how they would matchup. Its a work of fiction. What do you care? WHY are YOU talking about Wlad losing hand speed and stamina?! I thought these matchups were supposed to be boxers in their prime. ANSWER THE QUESTION! Now, here's a taste of your own medicine. You stated that the only fighter that Wlad would have a 10% chance of beating would be Patterson. Now a normal SECURE person would take this comment with a grain of salt. I will now act like you. That is the stupidest comment within the context of mythical matchups that i have ever heard in my life. The fact that Wlad never faced anybody that small and Patterson never fought anybody within 25 pounds of Wlad is the deciding factor. Who has Patterson knocked out that was within 40 pounds of Wlad? Wlad would not even be allowed to fight anyone that small. How many times was Patterson knocked out? There has been no scenario in either man's fighting history that would support your belief in any way whatsoever. End of story. I am not the only one defending Wlad's BOXING skills. I think you've had enough of me. If you want some more, come on. Otherwise, move on.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Give me a call when Wlad throws an uppercut. Frazier would eat him like a snack.

Collins2000 wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Give me a call when Wlad throws an uppercut. Frazier would eat him like a snack.

Are these blokes really talking about Wlad Klitschko beating Joe Frazier?

They meant Marvis, surely.

dempseyfire wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:

pjonesy wrote: You make some very good points. Saad certainly has the right to hold Wlad accountable for his performances. He has looked very fragile in many fights where he needed to step up his competitive fire. I have no problem with the criticism of Wlad, it is certainly warranted. But, HomicideHenry it seems that you are looking more at his potential. I agree that Wlad has all the athletic tools to be a tremendous Champion. I like that you said, "Klitschko gives them more more problems than one generally gives him credit for". Wlad is 6'6, 245 pounds. FACT!!!! Floyd Patterson was 6'0, and NEVER weighed 200 pounds. FACT!!!! Floyd Patterson NEVER fought anyone 225 pounds! FACT!!!! He fought Charley Polite. You know Charley Polite don't you? He was 6'3, 222 pounds with a record of 39 LOSSES! Wlad beat the poop out of Chris Byrd(6'0, 213). Do some people out there really believe that Patterson could do anything to hurt Wlad? Patterson had none of the power of Joe Louis or Marciano so don't even mention that! Just because of his size and his cautious style he would have an immediate advantage over 4 or 5 of these guys. I DO NOT think that Wlad would beat the rest of the guys on the list, but with his physical tools and ability he could be competitive. Think about it this way. If by some chance Wlad put a 5 punch combination together and solidly hit, lets say Holyfield, with every punch. You are telling me that he would have no chance to win? But, he is so cowardly, he might not show up. In all seriousness, there is no one out there right now that is anywhere close to the caliber of fighters on this list (Patterson as well; GREAT boxer, small, not enough power). Wlad does have very little intestinal fortitude, and under stress looks like the proverbial deer in the headlights. But, he is capable of hurting anybody and has knockout power. I can say with conviction that at least he isn't ducking anybody. Yes, i am aware that there is no one out there to duck.

he can be exciting [remember his 6th round destruction of Mercer]he fought courageously against Peter and ever since he hasn't come close to defea The list has shown he has annihilated the abortions in boxing, and he's showing that he is the better fighter than his brother Vitali. H2H Vitali beats Wladimir, yes, but when it comes to overall skill and saavy fighting ability, Wladimir is the best heavyweight on the planet bar none.

I rest my case.

A) I don't consider a 6 round beating of a once dangerous 41 year old fighter an 'exciting' fight
2) I don't consider excessive holding very couragaeous
3) Totally disagree. Vitali is proving now he's definitely the superior fighter. Much more relaxed, better timing and judge of distance, better stamina and far superior chin/durability. Wladimir is the more fluid athlete and certainly has more speed and pop to his punches but that doesn't make him the better fighter.