BoxRec

Personally I think Kevin is world class, and I think any one crazy enough to argue against him being world class would have to admit if he is pretty damn close to it.
Vinny can come again if he chooses to, I dont agree with one defeat on the way up and your career being over.
Vinny does have ability as it was not that long ago he was clearly beating the likes of Paul Appleby and Luke Campbell in the amateurs.
He still young and learning, as long as he irons out the mistakes and rededicates himself, why can he not improve and become a better fighter from the experience?

Kit wrote: He still young and learning, as long as he irons out the mistakes and rededicates himself, why can he not improve and become a better fighter from the experience?

The big question is surely over his chin and his ability to take a shot? The way he's been matched to date suggests that his handlers feel he's very vulnerable. Agree that fighters are written off to easily after one defeat though.

Des1 wrote:

reggaereggae wrote:

Vinny is very chinny unfortunately. He should really look for another career. He's not even a poor man's matthew Hatton....

How? Thats the first time he's been beat, he's been put down once before Sat night and got up to win, anyone who's "very chinny" wouldn't be getting up at all and even Sat night he was on his feet when the fight was stopped. You get hit correctly had your not fully prepared theres a good chance your going over, its those who dont/cant get up that are more likely to be "very chinny"

I think alot of these 'Chinny Mitchell' rumours stem from the ams when he was wiped out by Bhatia. He was 17 at the time.
I for one hope he comes back from this and shows his mettle: a single loss is far from the end of the road.

Des1 wrote:

whicker wrote: I disagree- No disrespect to Kevin, but he is well below World Class level, and would be horribly exposed against a true world class fighter.

He will have a good fight with Katsedis, who should never the less have too much for him- unless Mitchell finds a bingo punch.

The guy he blew away on Saturday was well below Mitchell's ability level.

Please tell me how you come to the conclusion that Kevin Mitchell is "well below World Class level" when he completely out boxed World capable Prescott who destroyed the current WBA World Champ and just KO'd Mendoza who took John Murray the distance (TD8)?

LOL!

Prescott, "World Capable" - nothing on his record suggests that, other than the win over Khan- which after all, CAN happen when a boxer has a good punch. Nothing about Prescott's other recent bouts suggests "World Capable", including his performance against Mitchell.

And yes, Mendoza fought Murray and lost on a TD, but, so what?

I fail to see how KOing a boxer who went 8 round with John Murray 4 years ago makes Mitchell "world class."

Look at Mendoza's record- hardly stella, and nothing close to "World" level at all.


All I'm really saying, is that at the moment it's too early to talk about Mitchell as being anything close to "World" level, until he beats someone who is genuingly opperating aroud, or close, to, "World" level.

Which would include Katsidis.

I think as long as Mitchell follows the same template against Katsidis i.e. doesn't get drawn into a brawl and uses his boxing skills, I can see him winning the fight quite comfortably. Haven't had a chance to watch Saturday's fight yet (going to check it out on Youtube tonight), but if, as it seems, he's packing a punch up at lightweight, I could even see him stopping Katsidis late.

whicker wrote:

Des1 wrote:

whicker wrote: I disagree- No disrespect to Kevin, but he is well below World Class level, and would be horribly exposed against a true world class fighter.

He will have a good fight with Katsedis, who should never the less have too much for him- unless Mitchell finds a bingo punch.

The guy he blew away on Saturday was well below Mitchell's ability level.

Please tell me how you come to the conclusion that Kevin Mitchell is "well below World Class level" when he completely out boxed World capable Prescott who destroyed the current WBA World Champ and just KO'd Mendoza who took John Murray the distance (TD8)?

All I'm really saying, is that at the moment it's too early to talk about Mitchell as being anything close to "World" level, until he beats someone who is genuingly opperating aroud, or close, to, "World" level.

Which would include Katsidis.

Thats not what 'all you saying'. You said Mitchell is well below World level, you didn't just say its to early to talk about it, please dont back track. Question for you, would you say Khan is World level being a 'World' Champion?

Des1 wrote:

whicker wrote:

Des1 wrote: Please tell me how you come to the conclusion that Kevin Mitchell is "well below World Class level" when he completely out boxed World capable Prescott who destroyed the current WBA World Champ and just KO'd Mendoza who took John Murray the distance (TD8)?

All I'm really saying, is that at the moment it's too early to talk about Mitchell as being anything close to "World" level, until he beats someone who is genuingly opperating aroud, or close, to, "World" level.

Which would include Katsidis.

Thats not what 'all you saying'. You said Mitchell is well below World level, you didn't just say its to early to talk about it, please dont back track. Question for you, would you say Khan is World level being a 'World' Champion?

Yes, Mitchell is well below World Level. He has fought no-one close to "World" level. It's too early to talk about him being World level. All basically the same thing.

When (if) he fights and beats a genuine World Level fighter, then we can talk about him being world level. Personnally, I don't think he will.

Khan is borderline world level, again, it depends on his career from now on.

To add- It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the Katsidis fight "fell through", with his next opponent being another unknown.

whicker wrote:

Des1 wrote:

whicker wrote:


All I'm really saying, is that at the moment it's too early to talk about Mitchell as being anything close to "World" level, until he beats someone who is genuingly opperating aroud, or close, to, "World" level.

Which would include Katsidis.

Thats not what 'all you saying'. You said Mitchell is well below World level, you didn't just say its to early to talk about it, please dont back track. Question for you, would you say Khan is World level being a 'World' Champion?

Yes, Mitchell is well below World Level. He has fought no-one close to "World" level. It's too early to talk about him being World level. All basically the same thing.

When (if) he fights and beats a genuine World Level fighter, then we can talk about him being world level. Personnally, I don't think he will.

Khan is borderline world level, again, it depends on his career from now on.

So Khan is borderline World level according to you but Mitchell is no where near World level?

Khan has by no means boxed better quality opponents than what Mitchell has and the only fighter they have in common is Prescott. Khan got completely out boxed for the short period it was before being KO'd and Mitchell clearly outboxed him and showing he had a decent chin. You also have to have a decent chin to be put in 'World class'.

So by saying "Khan is borderline World level" but "Mitchell is no where near World level" is nonsence

Deserter wrote:I think as long as Mitchell follows the same template against Katsidis i.e. doesn't get drawn into a brawl and uses his boxing skills, I can see him winning the fight quite comfortably. Haven't had a chance to watch Saturday's fight yet (going to check it out on Youtube tonight), but if, as it seems, he's packing a punch up at lightweight, I could even see him stopping Katsidis late.

I mentioned on an another thread that Mitchell could do with a good test before stepping in with Katsidis. Did you see Katsidis fight with Vicente Escobedo? Katsidis just walked through everything Escobedo threw and outmuscled and outworked him. I'd like Mitchell to have a good test against a faded pressure fighter (Jesus Chavez would fit the bill perfectly) before stepping in with Katsidis. Right now I tend to agree with whicker that Mitchell is somewhat an unknown quantity with regards to being world-class (I mean Khan fight aside what has Prescott done aside lose to a journeyman?) but I believe he may be world-class. A win against Katsidis would prove it.

black panther wrote:

Deserter wrote:I think as long as Mitchell follows the same template against Katsidis i.e. doesn't get drawn into a brawl and uses his boxing skills, I can see him winning the fight quite comfortably. Haven't had a chance to watch Saturday's fight yet (going to check it out on Youtube tonight), but if, as it seems, he's packing a punch up at lightweight, I could even see him stopping Katsidis late.

I mentioned on an another thread that Mitchell could do with a good test before stepping in with Katsidis. Did you see Katsidis fight with Vicente Escobedo? Katsidis just walked through everything Escobedo threw and outmuscled and outworked him. I'd like Mitchell to have a good test against a faded pressure fighter (Jesus Chavez would fit the bill perfectly) before stepping in with Katsidis. Right now I tend to agree with whicker that Mitchell is somewhat an unknown quantity with regards to being world-class (I mean Khan fight aside what has Prescott done aside lose to a journeyman?) but I believe he may be world-class. A win against Katsidis would prove it.

Whicker says that Khan is borderline World class, if thats the case how can he say that Mitchell is way off World class? Khan has not boxed anyone more capable than what Mitchell has. Whicker does not justify his statement

Des1 wrote:
Whicker says that Khan is borderline World class, if thats the case how can he say that Mitchell is way off World class? Khan has not boxed anyone more capable than what Mitchell has. Whicker does not justify his statement

I think the manner of the win against Prescott proves he is not "well below" world-level, more on the cusp of it. I hope the Katsidis fight comes off - that will answer all the questions we need to know and end this debate. If I'm honest at this stage I think Katsidis would have a little too much for Mitchell and win a clear decision or late stoppage.

Re:Khan, to be fair Khan has beaten better opposition than Mitchell has in Kotelnik who is a proven world-class operator with the win over Maidana.

Kotelink better than anyone Mitchell fought. Don't forget he has a win over Maidana. Also gave Witter a hard fight.

Des1 wrote: Whicker says that Khan is borderline World class, if thats the case how can he say that Mitchell is way off World class? Khan has not boxed anyone more capable than what Mitchell has. Whicker does not justify his statement

I say Mitchell is way off world class (as explained above) because he hasn't fought any opponents even close to world class level.

I justify this by looking at the level of opposition Mitchell has fought.

You introduced the comparison with Khan, which was unnecessary.

As for "Khan has not boxed anyone more capable than what Mitchell has"- Well, Salita WAS an unbeaten prospect- not world class, no, but a decent unbeaten fighter none the less. Kotelnik is significantly better than anyone Mitchell has faced, as is Marco Antonio Barrera.

black panther wrote:

I think the manner of the win against Prescott proves he is not "well below" world-level, more on the cusp of it.

Personally, I don't rate Prescott. A capable British level fighter could beat him, as long as he avoided the big punch.

For sure, I think Mitchell is a capable fighter- I just think that, at the moment, he still hasn't fought at close to world level.

Worth pointing out, too, that boxrec currently have Mitchell rated below John Murray.

A fight which, of course, will never happen.

Mitchell, for whatever reason, seems to not fight domestic opposition- with the exception of Carl Johannsen, his last 14 opponents have all been international opponents.

whicker wrote:Worth pointing out, too, that boxrec currently have Mitchell rated below John Murray.

A fight which, of course, will never happen.

Mitchell, for whatever reason, seems to not fight domestic opposition- with the exception of Carl Johannsen, his last 14 opponents have all been international opponents.

Because boxrec has John Murray rated above Mitchell doesn't mean its correct. Would you say his last 14 international opponents would have been a worse or better than domestic opposition?

Des1 wrote: Would you say his last 14 international opponents would have been a worse or better than domestic opposition?

Never very easy to say-

The difference is we know more about whom Murray has beaten. With guys like Mendoza (and most of the people Mitchell has beaten), we can look at their records, and hazard a guess at his ability, but it's really hard to guess.

IE- is Mendoza better than Willie Limond, Scott Lawton or Lee McAllister (to just use three domestic examples.)

And as such , if Mitchell had beaten one of them on Saturday, would people still be talking about him as "fringe world class?"

See what I mean? Sometimes outclassing a foreign unknown can make overshine a boxers record.

Just for the record, going off boxrec again, the closest domestic fighters in ranking to Mendoza are Stephen Burke and Damian Owen. I see nothing on Mendozas record to suggest he is much better, either.

Had Mitcehll knocked out Burke or Owen, everyone would be saying "awful mis-match." But he stops Mendoza, and people are saying "Fringe World Class."

whicker wrote:

black panther wrote:

I think the manner of the win against Prescott proves he is not "well below" world-level, more on the cusp of it.

Personally, I don't rate Prescott. A capable British level fighter could beat him, as long as he avoided the big punch.

For sure, I think Mitchell is a capable fighter- I just think that, at the moment, he still hasn't fought at close to world level.

You dont rate Prescott, did you say that after he boxed Khan? Khan is a capable British level fighter yet he couldn't box his way around Prescotts punch, Prescott didn't land with just a lucky punch either.

Do you think Mitchell avoided Prescotts big punch the whole fight? Of course he never, of course he took more than one heavy shot from him but thats the difference, World level fighters have the ability to take a shot.

Des1 wrote: You dont rate Prescott, did you say that after he boxed Khan? Khan is a capable British level fighter yet he couldn't box his way around Prescotts punch, Prescott didn't land with just a lucky punch either.

Do you think Mitchell avoided Prescotts big punch the whole fight? Of course he never, of course he took more than one heavy shot from him but thats the difference, World level fighters have the ability to take a shot.

I'm not looking to make direct comparisons with Khan. Prescott's win over Khan was a good win, for sure, but mostly down to Khan's failings as much as Prescotss ability. Plus Khan has come back impressivly.

Mitchell's win over Prescott, true, was an exellent win- but not a "world level" contest, or close to.

whicker wrote:

Des1 wrote: You dont rate Prescott, did you say that after he boxed Khan? Khan is a capable British level fighter yet he couldn't box his way around Prescotts punch, Prescott didn't land with just a lucky punch either.

Do you think Mitchell avoided Prescotts big punch the whole fight? Of course he never, of course he took more than one heavy shot from him but thats the difference, World level fighters have the ability to take a shot.

I'm not looking to make direct comparisons with Khan. Prescott's win over Khan was a good win, for sure, but mostly down to Khan's failings as much as Prescotss ability. Plus Khan has come back impressivly.

Mitchell's win over Prescott, true, was an exellent win- but not a "world level" contest, or close to.

Mitchell rated 9 by the IBO and Murray about 28 fo Jan 10 ratings. I would see Mitchell fringe world class at the moment. I would like to see him have another step up in class before fighting for world title.

whicker wrote:

Des1 wrote: Whicker says that Khan is borderline World class, if thats the case how can he say that Mitchell is way off World class? Khan has not boxed anyone more capable than what Mitchell has. Whicker does not justify his statement

I say Mitchell is way off world class (as explained above) because he hasn't fought any opponents even close to world class level.

I justify this by looking at the level of opposition Mitchell has fought.

You introduced the comparison with Khan, which was unnecessary.

As for "Khan has not boxed anyone more capable than what Mitchell has"- Well, Salita WAS an unbeaten prospect- not world class, no, but a decent unbeaten fighter none the less. Kotelnik is significantly better than anyone Mitchell has faced, as is Marco Antonio Barrera.

How'd I know you was going to mention Barrera! Come on, lets be honest Barrera was a shell of himself and is his prime none of our fighters would touch him! Salita - decent unbeaten fighter?! I have a feeling you wouldn't be saying Salita was a decent unbeaten fighter if Khan hadn't boxed him and Mitchell had boxed last Saturday instead. Kotelnik significantly better than anyone Mitchell has faced? I disagree, I think Kotelnik was the worst and most over rated 'World' champs.

How was introducing comparison with Khan unnecessary? Most have made the comparison since Mitchell boxed Prescott haven't they? And with talk of them fighting down the line, and with Mitchell publicly saying he wants the fight. Of course a comparison will be made!

whicker wrote:

Des1 wrote: You dont rate Prescott, did you say that after he boxed Khan? Khan is a capable British level fighter yet he couldn't box his way around Prescotts punch, Prescott didn't land with just a lucky punch either.

Do you think Mitchell avoided Prescotts big punch the whole fight? Of course he never, of course he took more than one heavy shot from him but thats the difference, World level fighters have the ability to take a shot.

I'm not looking to make direct comparisons with Khan. Prescott's win over Khan was a good win, for sure, but mostly down to Khan's failings as much as Prescotss ability. Plus Khan has come back impressivly.

Mitchell's win over Prescott, true, was an exellent win- but not a "world level" contest, or close to.

Not World level contest or close to it?! It was a 'World Title' eliminator Mitchell has adapted to enable him to progress and step up a level without getting KO'd, thats the difference.

Des1 wrote: Not World level contest or close to it?! It was a 'World Title' eliminator Mitchell has adapted to enable him to progress and step up a level without getting KO'd, thats the difference.

Not all bouts classed as "world title eliminators" are actually at World Title level.

By "World title level" I mean boxers who are genuinly the best in the world, or close to it, at their weigh.

Don't forget that Prescott was coming off a loss to Miguel Vazquez going into that fight.

To be clear- I DO agree that it was a good performance- I just don't think, as yet, Mitchell has proved himself to be close to the best on the world. Personnally, I don't think he is the best in the UK at his weight.