BoxRec

What don't you get, Toppity? Who is, in YOUR opinion, for one reason or another, was the greatest to fight here?

razor7 wrote:way before my time but my 87 year old dad says Freddie Dawson was the best import ever to fight here

your dad picked a good one. i saw dawson ko alfie sands up here in newcastle. he was never beaten out here in 3 visits. after fighting a draw{disputed}with ike williams. lightweight title. he could not get a rematch. he came out and ko,d vic patrick,he fought our lights, welters and middles,pity the man wasn,t around then , he would have gone straight back to league ,rather than fight dawson, 3 more imports we had in the early 1950,s who all went back and won world lightweight titles were joey brown,undefeated out here, bud smith and jimmy carter, i think you have covered the topic pretty well, old archie would be up there with the best.i saw griffiths v dupas, griffiths was a shadow of his best, that was about the time they started to split the divisions up, and look what we have finished with/ all the best

Griffiths fought Dupas in Sydney in 1964, KOing him in the third round. Although he had been stopped in one by Rubin Carter in a middleweight fight in his previous fight, Griffiths was undisputed welterweight champion at that time. He won the undisputed middleweight title in 1966 and defended it a few times.

Are you sure it was not Dupas you thought was past his best? Ralph had lost his junior middleweight title to Mazzinghi and lost a rematch to him before this.

dberry wrote:What don't you get, Toppity? Who is, in YOUR opinion, for one reason or another, was the greatest to fight here?

MY opinion has been stated previously. I also think we look favourably on fighters after they have finished, as Marlin has stated. My knowledge is nowhere near as great as others here though, so i shall continue to 'not get it' i suppose.

Grant wrote:

Brute wrote:

Hounddawg wrote:Jack Johnson is hard to top, but beating a 5'7 fighter in Tommy Burns is easy to top. Historically non bigger,but the problem i have is that Era will always be Questionable.

RJJ is my pick.

Joe Frazier is definitely worth mentioning, Archie Moore as well.

Burns was the champion. Johnson had to beat him. After that he destroyed Jeffries. What went on before that was not Johnson's fault.

Harada was up there with them........

I was at the "showdown in StKilda" with Frazier and Ellis. Talk about pissing your money away.

That was not Frazier's fault. The promoter thought two former champions would make a good fight, but Jimmy Ellis was well and truly past it at that time. If you think Frazier was finished then, get a hold of a tape of his fight with Ali in Manilla seven months later. Joe fought his heart out for 14 rounds. Eddie Futch, Joe's trainer, stopped the fight before the 15th to stop Joe being badly hurt. Ali was not in a very good state either.

I've got the fight....what a fight.

I know he didnt fight, but does anyone know if Willie Pep's appearence at the first Famechon/Harada fight was considered or publicised as history in the making at the time? Surely it must have been the talk of the town once he was announced as the guest referee.

Tinnie wrote:I know he didnt fight, but does anyone know if Willie Pep's appearence at the first Famechon/Harada fight was considered or publicised as history in the making at the time? Surely it must have been the talk of the town once he was announced as the guest referee.

..not as much as his poor arithmetic at the end of the fight.

Brute wrote:Griffiths fought Dupas in Sydney in 1964, KOing him in the third round. Although he had been stopped in one by Rubin Carter in a middleweight fight in his previous fight, Griffiths was undisputed welterweight champion at that time. He won the undisputed middleweight title in 1966 and defended it a few times.

Are you sure it was not Dupas you thought was past his best? Ralph had lost his junior middleweight title to Mazzinghi and lost a rematch to him before this.

i.m pleased you corrected me on that, it could have cost me money,i saw the fight , i don,t know how i got it wrong, i thought i,d copped to many around the head, how is bernie hall, he went the distance with dawson a couple of times,all the best

After thinking about it some more, Id say Archie Moore is the best to ever fight here. His record speaks for itself. The guy was an absolute warrior.

It would be good for Oz boxing to see fighters of this level brought over to test the locals on the way up (and just as importantly entertain the crowd) rather than the Manilla folders and Fijian lay down lads:

Bunny Sterling
John Farrell
John Sichula
Denny Moyer
Langton Tinago
Al "Earthquake" Carter

and

Dujian Johnson
Kirkland Laing
Charlie "Choo Choo" Brown

Bit risky but might get bums on seats and maybe kill these Vacant Interrim WBF Pan Pacific shitcan belts.

patron wrote:

Brute wrote:Griffiths fought Dupas in Sydney in 1964, KOing him in the third round. Although he had been stopped in one by Rubin Carter in a middleweight fight in his previous fight, Griffiths was undisputed welterweight champion at that time. He won the undisputed middleweight title in 1966 and defended it a few times.

Are you sure it was not Dupas you thought was past his best? Ralph had lost his junior middleweight title to Mazzinghi and lost a rematch to him before this.

i.m pleased you corrected me on that, it could have cost me money,i saw the fight , i don,t know how i got it wrong, i thought i,d copped to many around the head, how is bernie hall, he went the distance with dawson a couple of times,all the best

Bernie died on May 6, 2007, a few weeks before he would have turned 80,but not before an imbecile named Alex Mitchell put an obituary about him in the Sun Herald. I was interstate and did not see the retraction after Bernie wrote to Mitchell from his nursing home to correct him. I was therefore not prepared for the actual death notice that I did not see until after the funeral. A mutual friend saw Bernie before he died and said he was still alert.

dberry wrote:And I don't mean Kostya Tzyu, Phillip Holiday et al. Any body who has taken up residence is disqualified. In a recent thread an argument ensued about whether Roy Jones Junior was the greatest foreigner to fight in Australia. I don't want any arguments started as the 'greatest' is based on so many subjective variables that it is, well, just that, subjective. One more thing they don't have to have been at their peak when they fought here.

I like Archie Moore and Jack Johnson, but I'm going with one of my all time favourites, a four time world champion in three weight division and an very exciting fighter, Iran Barkley. He stopped Thomas Hearns then, a few fights later, showed it was no fluke and beat him on points, absolutely destroyed Darrin Van Horne, had a split points loss to Roberto Duran and a close loss to Micheal Nunn. Bang for buck, for mine, he was the man.

Even forgetting that Barkley was absolutely shot to a million pieces by the time he fought Petridis, I'd day prime-for-prime, pound-for-pound, Barkley was some way shot of Jones, Moore, Nelson etc.

Marlin wrote:Roy Jones Jr. Eight time Champion from middleweight to heavyweight. Went a decade barely losing a round.

Give it time and Roy Jones Jr will eventual receive his place as one of the pound for pound all time greats. In this day and age it seems you must be retired for a decade or two before you can be classed as being any good. Yes Jones lost a few times at the end of his career, so did Ali, so did Moore even Sugar Ray Robinson wasn't undefeated! Roy Jones Jr will eventually be remembered for his greatness.

Indeed. As Jones is currently fighting (and losing), people talk about him damaging his legacy, but really, how many great fighters are judged by their late defeats. Not Ali, not Leonard, not Robinson and, even recently, not Tyson. So it will be with Jones.

oliverfennell wrote:

Marlin wrote:Roy Jones Jr. Eight time Champion from middleweight to heavyweight. Went a decade barely losing a round.

Give it time and Roy Jones Jr will eventual receive his place as one of the pound for pound all time greats. In this day and age it seems you must be retired for a decade or two before you can be classed as being any good. Yes Jones lost a few times at the end of his career, so did Ali, so did Moore even Sugar Ray Robinson wasn't undefeated! Roy Jones Jr will eventually be remembered for his greatness.

Indeed. As Jones is currently fighting (and losing), people talk about him damaging his legacy, but really, how many great fighters are judged by their late defeats. Not Ali, not Leonard, not Robinson and, even recently, not Tyson. So it will be with Jones.

That is true, Jones will be looked back on favorably, But i dont think his resume will catch a guy like Moore.

Its easy to say 8 time's World Champ. But in reality he wouldnt have been a 5 weight world champ. There's no chance he would have beaten the Klitshko's or Lewis to become Heavy weight Champ. He would have been a 2 time World Champ in the early days. Middle and LtHeavy.

I ask this, Would RJJ have beaten Archie Moore in a Prime Vs Prime Matchup at LtHeavy. Im not sure he would have.

Archie Moore, as great as he was, wasn't infallible. He dropped fights constantly throughout his great career and they weren't all to the likes of Rocky Marciano. Roy and Moore were almost exactly the same size and if we're talking prime for prime I think you could make an argument for either man to win. I would lean toward Roy Jones Jr's speed and angles trumping Moore's heart and determination.

In terms of beating heavyweights, back in Moores days the heavyweights were a lot smaller than the Klitshko's of today. In his prime I don't think it is unreasonable to think Roy could hang with fighters like the six foot Floyd Patterson or six foot Ingemar Johansson, etc...

Marlin wrote:Archie Moore, as great as he was, wasn't infallible. He dropped fights constantly throughout his great career and they weren't all to the likes of Rocky Marciano. Roy and Moore were almost exactly the same size and if we're talking prime for prime I think you could make an argument for either man to win. I would lean toward Roy Jones Jr's speed and angles trumping Moore's heart and determination.

In terms of beating heavyweights, back in Moores days the heavyweights were a lot smaller than the Klitshko's of today. In his prime I don't think it is unreasonable to think Roy could hang with fighters like the six foot Floyd Patterson or six foot Ingemar Johansson, etc...

You might be right,

I just think Moore fought the far better opponents. His record is right up there on the all time great lists. He fought until the age of 46 and was still beating tough guys. Roy has been shot from the age of 36. There careers are at diffrent levels IMo. I think its hard to compare there records but i dont think RJJ will ever be in a any top 10 P4P list and Moore is in a lot of them.
I know Boxrecs P4P list isnt the best but Moore is ranked at Number 2 right behind SRR. Even if you dont agree with that as i dont, It shows the guys he beat were at a far higher level than the guys Roy beat.

I see that people make points about Roys losses not mattering so much this late in his career, but none of the top guys mentioned above got Severely KOd even at the end of there careers. I mean could RJJ last 9 rounds with Marciano at anything over the age of 36, Or even ever for that matter.
And also Floyd Patterson had really fast hands id say he would have KOd RJJ even in his prime.

ben k wrote:

Marlin wrote:Archie Moore, as great as he was, wasn't infallible. He dropped fights constantly throughout his great career and they weren't all to the likes of Rocky Marciano. Roy and Moore were almost exactly the same size and if we're talking prime for prime I think you could make an argument for either man to win. I would lean toward Roy Jones Jr's speed and angles trumping Moore's heart and determination.

In terms of beating heavyweights, back in Moores days the heavyweights were a lot smaller than the Klitshko's of today. In his prime I don't think it is unreasonable to think Roy could hang with fighters like the six foot Floyd Patterson or six foot Ingemar Johansson, etc...

You might be right,

I just think Moore fought the far better opponents. His record is right up there on the all time great lists. He fought until the age of 46 and was still beating tough guys. Roy has been shot from the age of 36. There careers are at diffrent levels IMo. I think its hard to compare there records but i dont think RJJ will ever be in a any top 10 P4P list and Moore is in a lot of them.
I know Boxrecs P4P list isnt the best but Moore is ranked at Number 2 right behind SRR. Even if you dont agree with that as i dont, It shows the guys he beat were at a far higher level than the guys Roy beat.

I see that people make points about Roys losses not mattering so much this late in his career, but none of the top guys mentioned above got Severely KOd even at the end of there careers. I mean could RJJ last 9 rounds with Marciano at anything over the age of 36, Or even ever for that matter.
And also Floyd Patterson had really fast hands id say he would have KOd RJJ even in his prime.

just giving you a bit more ammunition, archie had 226 bouts, 138 ko,s54 points winsdrew 8 lost points17,ko,d 6, lost foul2 nc 1, drew with willie pastrano in 1962, pastrano won lightheavy title in 1963 moores next fight was clay who stopped him in 4, moores next and last fight he won by ko.4 of archies defeats by ko were charles, 1948, marciano 1955, patterson1956, clay1962 no shame being ko,d by them, just to shape up to them would have been an honour,birtdate by his mother wasdec. 13 1913 so clay knocked a great old fighter out, i think your argument stands up pretty well all the best

Brute wrote:

patron wrote:

Brute wrote:Griffiths fought Dupas in Sydney in 1964, KOing him in the third round. Although he had been stopped in one by Rubin Carter in a middleweight fight in his previous fight, Griffiths was undisputed welterweight champion at that time. He won the undisputed middleweight title in 1966 and defended it a few times.

Are you sure it was not Dupas you thought was past his best? Ralph had lost his junior middleweight title to Mazzinghi and lost a rematch to him before this.

i.m pleased you corrected me on that, it could have cost me money,i saw the fight , i don,t know how i got it wrong, i thought i,d copped to many around the head, how is bernie hall, he went the distance with dawson a couple of times,all the best

Bernie died on May 6, 2007, a few weeks before he would have turned 80,but not before an imbecile named Alex Mitchell put an obituary about him in the Sun Herald. I was interstate and did not see the retraction after Bernie wrote to Mitchell from his nursing home to correct him. I was therefore not prepared for the actual death notice that I did not see until after the funeral. A mutual friend saw Bernie before he died and said he was still alert.

thanks for the imfo, sorry to be reminded, we stood for the ten bells at our reunion, i might be battling that old foe al zimer, i last saw bernie at a fight night at ermington about 2003,i borrowed head gear for one of my boys, he was a gentleman,we went down to the old stadium to see him fight george kapeen for the title , bernie was full of the flu, lucky for us punters, it only went 7rds[i think}all the best

AntonS said: "How could I forget Rocky Berg aka Rocky/Danny Vires who fought Lester Ellis in '93 for WBF title.
I was present @ the fight in Adelaide & whoever it was it wasn't Berg."

Gee Anton I think I was comatose in 1993 (and maybe a few years after that as well), I would like to know a bit more about your comments; I see on Lester's boxrec that they have the word "unknown" as the contestant for Lester on that night. What was the real goss? Was there any investigation to fortify fraud ? You were at the scene of the crime, who was the mystery fighter, or were there hints to who it might really have been? Who was in on the joke? Did Lester mention this in his book? I can't remember if he did... Is there somewhere I can read about the facts or suspicions? Who were the promotors and boxing officials?

Cheers Myron.(the invincable)

pS: Best "active" fighter to fight in Auz, me thinks, was Harada...Sterling (mainly because he was pretty slick and classy)...Arnold Taylor

Marlin wrote:Archie Moore, as great as he was, wasn't infallible. He dropped fights constantly throughout his great career and they weren't all to the likes of Rocky Marciano. Roy and Moore were almost exactly the same size and if we're talking prime for prime I think you could make an argument for either man to win. I would lean toward Roy Jones Jr's speed and angles trumping Moore's heart and determination.

In terms of beating heavyweights, back in Moores days the heavyweights were a lot smaller than the Klitshko's of today. In his prime I don't think it is unreasonable to think Roy could hang with fighters like the six foot Floyd Patterson or six foot Ingemar Johansson, etc...

Archie's last appearance in the ring was against an idiotic wrestler. Archie cut him to ribbons in 20 seconds. Fool probably never knew what hit him.

toppity wrote:I just don't get it. Perhaps Marlin is correct.

Topps, mate, if you think that, for example, RJJ, in his prime, was the best fighter, irregardless of the shape he where in when he visited our shores, then that would be your answer. But 'Best' is a bit subjective, so no one is right or wrong.

i,m so glad we live in this country, so many opinions & allowed to say wat we think, who was the best? dont no,but i reckon its a great thread, got everyone thinkin

I am going to have a second dip here (but with a fresh biscuit). I hope I do not dirty this thread.

The blokes I am going to put a word in for, were the "pommy brigade" of middleweights that arrived in Victoria to fight on
TV Ringside in the 70s. It was an extremely exciting time this era, and these main eventers, came to Auz to
fight Mahanga and a few other local middles and light middles. (We got to spar em all.) What vision producer-compare Ron Casey had together with promotor Dick Lean - Festival Hall, to bring out some tough credible fighters for us Aussies to test our amunition on. (Wasn't boxing invented by the poms?)

Hope these fighters stir up a bit of prior memory in some older members: Mick Cain, Dick Duffy, Frank Young (Ireland), Eric Blake and Pat Dwyer (Ireland).

Cheers, Myron (the invincable)