BoxRec

patron wrote:

bollox wrote:Ferreri Michael and Ellis were in different weight classes and would have had to come down since Fenech was the titleholder. They weren't denied shots, it's more that there was no way they could have come down to 118, 122 or 126 except for Ferreri. Fenech didn't go to feather til 1988 and Ferreri was pretty much retired by then. From memory when they were challenging Fenech they were feather (Ferreri), junior lightweight (Michael) and lightweight (Ellis). Ferreri could have made 126 although he would have been monstered at that stage of his career

Fenech was protected a bit at 118 but not the higher weights

I don't consider Tszyu to be home grown since he got his grounding elsewhere

fenech fought as a feather in 1985, ferreri fought for empire bantam title in 1986, ellis and micheals fought for super feather empire title in 1984, fenech was supposedly around 6 pounds lighter, they through a challenge out at catch weights, in those days and earlier, fighters gave weight away light fought welter etc.ferreri was only 118 lbs in 1985, by the way. i wasn,t the one that brought fenech,s indescretions up, my opinion is as good as little sir echo ,i respect fenech as a fighter,and isn,t darchinian in the same boat as tszyu, all the best

The only feather Fenech fought that I can think of from this time was one John Matienza. Fighting average feathers is light years away from fighting a titleholder

Ferreri may have fought at 118 in 1986 but mid 1986 he also lost to Mad Dog Miller at feather. He pretty easily bounced around in the weights although by his stage he as well past his best. If he couldn't beat Mad Dog (who Fenech mauled) then there was no way he'd have beaten Fenech

Ellis and Michael fought for the IBF superfeather title in 1985 (Fenech won the 118lb title in 1985. That's 12 pounds difference)

Besides all and any of the above, they all would have preferred to have fought him for the title so they could cash in, so maybe they should have fought their way up to contender status in Fenech's weight class. Ellis and Michael were unable to make feather and Ferreri wouldn't have made it to contender status

p.s. Fenech fought a guy named Percy Israel very early on. Percy went on to fight as a middleweight not too many years later

dberry wrote:I'll gladly add fuel to that fire, it is a well known fact that Fenech denied Lester Ellis a fight for the super feather title and it is, by the Fenech camp a closely kept, the worst kept secret that Lester Ellis knocked out Jeff Fenech in the mid eighties at Dana Goodson's Fitzroy Stars Gym in Fitzroy, Melbourne in front of both camps, spectators and media.

Fenech being the best boxer of our generation is subjective opinion.

I'm not surprised it happened. But sparring V the real thing, they're 2 different kettles of fish

bollox wrote:

dberry wrote:I'll gladly add fuel to that fire, it is a well known fact that Fenech denied Lester Ellis a fight for the super feather title and it is, by the Fenech camp a closely kept, the worst kept secret that Lester Ellis knocked out Jeff Fenech in the mid eighties at Dana Goodson's Fitzroy Stars Gym in Fitzroy, Melbourne in front of both camps, spectators and media.

Fenech being the best boxer of our generation is subjective opinion.

I'm not surprised it happened. But sparring V the real thing, they're 2 different kettles of fish

Yeah, fair enough, cant argue with your opinion.

dberry wrote:I did not say that either of them held the effing title, Brute, I said one challenged the other to a fight, and a title was mentioned as a sweetener. Fenech denied Ellis to the fight, for a title, understanding yet pal? It was pretty common knowledge amongst the boxing world, yeah? That Ellis knocked fenech out at the fitzroy All Stars Gym In North Melbourne. Care to try and be a smartie and discredit what I have to say?

You said Fenech denied Ellis a shot at the Super Featherweight title. Check what you wrote.

Brute wrote:

dberry wrote:I did not say that either of them held the effing title, Brute, I said one challenged the other to a fight, and a title was mentioned as a sweetener. Fenech denied Ellis to the fight, for a title, understanding yet pal? It was pretty common knowledge amongst the boxing world, yeah? That Ellis knocked fenech out at the fitzroy All Stars Gym In North Melbourne. Care to try and be a smartie and discredit what I have to say?

You said Fenech denied Ellis a shot at the Super Featherweight title. Check what you wrote.

it was also common knowledge that ferreri ,ellis and michaels were after fenech, sure money had a lot to do with it, thats why mordey and lewis didn,t want their golden goose knocked off,ferreri held empire bantam title between 1981 and 1986, fenech won aussie bantam in 1985,no weight worries,i know that there was 12lbs. difference. but i,m talking about willing parties splitting the difference, there maybe 4-5 lbs between them, fenech would have no problem making featherweight, which he did,fighters shouldn,t worry about a few pounds, ability and experience are the deciders,i forgot ,and judges.i don,t know where percy israel comes into it, he,s not robinson crosoe,there are thousands who have followed that path.i was afly to middle in 7 years, plenty of tooheys old. all the best

I don't think Percy went from 126 to 160 from drinking the old devil water I brought him up because we were talking about weight differences. Plus...a fighter called Percy

bollox wrote:I don't think Percy went from 126 to 160 from drinking the old devil water I brought him up because we were talking about weight differences. Plus...a fighter called Percy

i remember percy fighting, iwasn,t having a shot at him,i was 13 as a flyweight and 25 as a middle,but i did like a little drink. i see your point, i don,t knock fenech as a fighter, i just think and have been told by people in the front line what went on outside the ropes, so i can,tsee him as our greatest in any era or division. all the best

Vic Darchinian beat a bloke named "Irene" for the IBF flyweight title. I would hate to face a fighter with the same name as my mother.

Is that Aussie Joe, English Joe or Hungarian Joe? :??

King Geedorah wrote:Anyone got love for Joe Bugner?

Irene?

Ross wrote:Boxing today more than ever before is a business and making money has become the number one priority for all.This agruement can be used to justify why many decisions are made in the sport I love.

Or can it?

I was frustrated by Mundine not fighting anyone that could test him and when he did he got beat but I still believed that he had the ability if not the belief in himself to be a true world champion, sadly he only looks for ridiculously easy marks and seems to have no interes in his legacy, but more in making money. I cant remember the last Mundine fight I purchased.
Now Green, he won our hearts when he got ripped off in Germany, but what has he done since he left Fenech ?
Nothing of note, he KOed RJJ ... so what. he KOes Manny ... so what.
To me Green and Mundine are now the same both milking the sport for all they can make $$$$, good for them, bad for me as a fan. Obviously these two have no regard for their legacy, looking for easy meaningless wins.

All well and good for them, but please no one should consider either of them "great"" - do you think either of them will be inducted into the INternational Boxing Hall of Fame ? I doubt either will ever be considered.

Now Fenech, we didnt appreciate him enough, once he was established he looked for the biggest names and tougest Champions to carve out his legacy, he could have called out a lesser Champion on his quest than Nelson, but not our Jeff he went for the best, beat the best to prove he was the BEST.
IIn my opinion neither Green nor Mundine should EVER EVER be mentioned in the same sentance as our greatest fighter. JEFF FENECH.

jUST HAD TO GET THAT OFF MY CHEST

Gday mate. Strewth thats a bit unfair on the bloke isnt it mate? I dont mean to piss on another blokes dunnie, but fair dinkum, Mundine changed sports and with the full media glare and after only a dozen fights went to germany to take on the real 168lb champ at the time Sven Ottke and did what no one else did to him which was more or less shut him out for 9 rounds, before he suffered that one punch knockout. He rebounded to win a "world" title. i dont think Mundine thinks he is the greatest aussie fighter ever and he's never bought shame on the aussie nation by being a dunnie rat and putting plaster in his gloves. Have a tinnie and give the bloke a chance mate. Ive always liked australian fighters. Jeff harding was as tough as a dead drongos dingo and Aussie Joe Bugner he was beating blokes in his 50's.

Bugner turned 49 the year he had his last fight against a fat Yank who had lost more fights than he won.

Different times, different era's.
To say Danny Koed RJ and it means little is a bit below the belt....once agagin Danny was a heavy underdog. It was one of the greatest moments in boxing history (in Australia) I do agree Choc and Danny have gone a bit wayward in some opponent selection, but StipeDrews, Eric Lucas, Markus Beyer x 2, Anthony Mundine, Bj Flores, Roy Jones, Jason Delisle (who had just challenged for world title) just to name a few arent bad opponents. If Danny should unify a couple of belts he may get a look at the hall of fame, but that is unlikely.
In Fenechs time and harding there seemed to be more willingness for the better guys to fight each other.The money was made in big fights and cash through PPV especially in Australia, was not there...unlike today.
Mundine. whilst yes I am frustrated, has fought Ottke, Kessler and Green.....I think that is as good as Mundines resume will get.
When you talk about the HOF, do you think Wlad Klitschko will get in ?? I think he is a shoe in, eventually. But have a look at his record and who he has beat. Not exactly household names, not the same people as Holyfield, Lewis, Tyson, Holmes, Ali, Frazier. I say this because to compare fenech v green/mundine is like comparing these guys....different times in the world of boxing But mate, I do hear and feel your frustration !!!

King Geedorah wrote:

bollox wrote:Is that Aussie Joe, English Joe or Hungarian Joe? :??

Last time I saw him he was overweight, drunk and abusive, so Aussie Joe it is.

King Geedorah - Congratulations, you have won the highly sought after RA2006 Best Comeback Post of the year.

Not wanting to get nasty about this but I think Jeff was certainly amongst Australias greatest in his era, but even when he was mauling featherweights I was disappointed in his career decisions, I always thought that chasing titles is not the way to be remembered as a great fighter. Jeff, to my knowledge, was never more than half a champion, I mean we thought he was great but there were always others with claims that should have been taken out if he wanted to be un disputed.
Unifying at feather would mean much more to me than winning titles in four weight divisions.I know it is different times and would have been far more difficult for Jeff. But the point of reference for all these acheivements must be Lionel Rose at Bantam IMO.
Lionel beat an all time great at his most fancied weight, in his own country. Then he took on the Mexicans which was over due. High risk most certainly but it is what a champion has to do to rule the division. Yes jeff held a version of three world titles, but never stayed around long enough in any to get the international respect he should have had.
I do think there were some super fights he could have had at featherweight, Sure he might have met his 'Reuben Olivares' but he needed to take that chance to be known as the greatest of his era.

How many boxers beat both Zaragoza and Zarate, both of them Hall of Fame members?

Brute wrote:How many boxers beat both Zaragoza and Zarate, both of them Hall of Fame members?

Hey cant argue with those names, Zarate however was well into his mid thirties i believe at the time and had fought ferrari 10-15 years earlier when in his prime. Zaragoza however was a great win. Al I am saying is that Jeff hung around for only a couple of fights at feather champion before moving up again. I am just saying that he could have owned the featherweights but chased titles. Wrong choice IMO.

Cheers

Zarate was 36, but had only lost 2 fights out of 68 when he fought Fenech, to fellow Hall of fame members Wilfredo Gomez and Lupe Pintor. When Fenech moved up to featherweight the WBC still considered Zarate good enough to fight Zaragoza for the vacant super bantamweight title.

A 36 year old bantam is a 36 year old bantam. In the days when a 36 year old bantam was usually retired. At that time Zarate still had his power but not too much else