BoxRec

Posted: **06 May 2010, 13:10**

raylaw or one of the other real historians here can correct me if I'm wrong about this but I think they were talking about a rematch between Marciano and the under-rated and sadly-forgotten Harry Kid Matthews. [Matthews had a terrific record but ran into one early against the Rock before Rocky won the title. He said Marciano caught him cold or caught him with a lucky shot or something (I'm a little vague on this) and had been clamoring for a rematch.] To everyone's shock, however, Cockell upset the apple cart by beating Matthews (twice I think). Probably Matthews was past it by then but make no mistake about that, by beating Matthews, Cockell earned his title shot.

I don't see how anyone can disagree that Marciano was an all-time great. The only guy I am convinced beats him 100% of the time is Big George. Head-to-head against everyone else, Marciano is, at worst, a live underdog. Just my opinion, gentlemen.

Posted: **06 May 2010, 14:47**

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
raylawpc wrote:
Goodnight, Irene wrote: Well, it wasn't an outright admission. His response to being accused of that was, "This is Boxing, not Chess." I take that as a de facto concession of the point, though. What do you think?
No. 1 - That's not an attribution.

No. 2 - He's right. Boxing isn't chess. When you are fighting someone, occasionally low blows, rabbit punches, etc. are thrown. But that is not an admission of being "intentionally dirty." We don't have the context of that comment to be sure what Rocky's really meant.
Suit yourself. I take it as an admission to playing dirty.

Attribute the statement and let me see the context, and maybe I'll agree with you.

Posted: **06 May 2010, 14:51**

If it could be magically done and prime Marciano could be thrown in against maybe 15-20 other prime heavies I could come up with, I would LOVE to see how many of you guys would really bet on Marciano if the abode depended on it.

Let's see, off the top of my head, here are some names.....

Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Louis, Charles, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis.

14 names right there.

Posted: **06 May 2010, 14:54**

yancey wrote:If it could be magically done and prime Marciano could be thrown in against maybe 15-20 other prime heavies I could come up with, I would LOVE to see how many of you guys would really bet on Marciano if the abode depended on it.

Let's see, off the top of my head, here are some names.....

Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Louis, Charles, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis.

14 names right there.

There would others, imo.

Maybe I wouldn't have bet on Marciano . . . but I wouldn't have bet on those guys against him, either.

Posted: **06 May 2010, 15:00**

Controversial wrote:
gambler49 wrote:
Prone to cuts - I only remeber him being cut in 1 world title fight
Small - True
Fairly slow - True
Clumsy - False
Could be outboxed - But not for too many rounds thats for sure!
Dirty fighter - U say that like it's a bad thing!
Fought in poor era - False... It was a strong era.
Walcott had him cut and he was close to being stopped on a cut against Charles. There are pictures of him against other fighters where he had puffy eyes.

Dirty fighting isn't a good thing for me, Marciano got away with murder, elbows, low blows, headbutts, forearm smashes, hitting after the bell, when fighters where on the floor etc...etc.. his fight against Cockell was atrocious and he didn't get one warning.

I don't agree that the 50's were a strong era in the heavyweights. Most of Marcianos opponents were poor just look at opponents 32, 33, 34, 35 and 40. All through Marcianos career he fought fighters on losing streaks or fighters that retired soon after.

40) Gino Buonvino was 24-14-8 (last ever fight)
35) Willis Applegate was 11-14-2 (lost 10 round decision to Marciano)
34) Art Henri was 13-15-1 (went 9 rounds with Marciano)
33) Harold Mitchell was 3-13-3
32) Keene Simmons was 8-8-1

Awful opposition for someone with 30+ fights.

Charles and Walcott were still decent fighters but Marciano got them at the right time.

If you were his manager, who wold you have put Marciano in against instead of those guys you name?

I assume regarding the Charles fight, you are referring to Charles II and the nose cut Marciano received. In fact, the ringside physican was quoted after the fight as saying he had no intent at any time to stop the fight due to that cut, since it interfered with neither Marciano's vision nor breathing.

Posted: **06 May 2010, 18:43**

I have never researched Marciano's record, but never would have believed that Rocky's 33rd victim would have a 3-13-3 record going into the fight. 3 up and 13 down, wow.

His 34th and 35th opponents had losing records, too.

Contrast that with Frazier going against the likes of Bonavena so early in his career.

Posted: **06 May 2010, 19:01**

yancey wrote:I have never researched Marciano's record, but never would have believed that Rocky's 33rd victim would have a 3-13-3 record going into the fight. 3 up and 13 down, wow.

His 34th and 35th opponents had losing records, too.

Contrast that with Frazier going against the likes of Bonavena so early in his career.

Different times, different fighters, different management styles. Without looking, I'm willing to bet that most - if not all - of those fights listed by Controversial took place in Providence - where Rocky was extremely popular and always drew a good gate for the promoter. If I had a guy who was selling out the house everytime he fought, I'd keep him busy, too. But, by the same token, when your guy fights as frequently as Marciano, you not going to throw him in with somebody like Bonavena every time he fights.

Posted: **07 May 2010, 10:06**

ThatOne wrote:Ezzard being a lwh moving up in weight must be factored in.

Charles was very comfortable at carrying the extra weight and fighting in the Heavyweight division...

As a matter of fact, he was an accomplished boxer at Heavyweight...
In the late 40s/early 50s Heavyweight scene, Charles had already defeated Louis (being the 1st man to do so since Schmeling)
and defeated Walcott twice.
Before beating defeated back-to-back against Marciano.

Charles was a distinquished boxer in the division.

ThatOne wrote:The Old Mongoose was 39 or 42 when Rocky beat him.

Correction: MOORE WAS STILL GOING STRONG WHEN ROCK FOUGHT HIM!!!

Years after Marciano beat him, Moore defeated exceptional fighters like Yvon Durelle and Pete Rademacher.

Hell, Moore was still at the top nearly a decade later when he met Muhammad Ali.

Posted: **07 May 2010, 10:57**

"But, by the same token, when your guy fights as frequently as Marciano, you not going to throw him in with somebody like Bonavena every time he fights." raylawpc

No, but is it too much to ask that your opponent have more than THREE wins in NINETEEN fights???

Posted: **07 May 2010, 11:29**

His punch power was good, overrated by many and not the one punch ko artist many think he was

Marciano knocked out top rated opponents Jersey Joe Walcott, Rex Layne, and Harry Kid Matthews all with 1 shot. Name me 5 other heavyweight champion who have knocked out 3 highly rated opponents with only one punch?

If Marciano wasn't a one punch knockout artist, then by your definition who is?

Posted: **07 May 2010, 11:35**

However the fact remains the heavyweight division was quite poor after WW2,

No your wrong, that is not a fact, Post WW II was filled with some very terrific fighters like Joe Louis, Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Lee Q Murray, Elmer Ray, Jimmy Bivins. All of these men would do very well in any era.

Then Upon Joe Louis' retirement..a new young wave of young talent came into the heavyweight division Clarence Henry, Nino Valdes, Bob Baker, Earl Walls, Rex Layne, Rocky Marciano, Roland Lastarza, Coley Wallace. Some of these men were terrific amateurs like Baker, Henry, and Wallace.

Then Following Marcianos retirement...more new talent came into the heavyweight division eddie machen, floyd patterson, zora folley, harold carter, hurricane jackson, Johnny Summerlin, Cleveland Williams, Mike DeJohn.

I would hardly classify it as ever being poor.

Posted: **07 May 2010, 11:48**

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
However the fact remains the heavyweight division was quite poor after WW2,
No your wrong, that is not a fact, Post WW II was filled with some very terrific fighters like Joe Louis, Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Lee Q Murray, Elmer Ray, Jimmy Bivins. All of these men would do very well in any era.

Then Upon Joe Louis' retirement..a new young wave of young talent came into the heavyweight division Clarence Henry, Nino Valdes, Bob Baker, Earl Walls, Rex Layne, Rocky Marciano, Roland Lastarza, Coley Wallace. Some of these men were terrific amateurs like Baker, Henry, and Wallace.

Then Following Marcianos retirement...more new talent came into the heavyweight division eddie machen, floyd patterson, zora folley, harold carter, hurricane jackson, Johnny Summerlin, Cleveland Williams, Mike DeJohn.

I would hardly classify it as ever being poor.

It is now . . .

Posted: **07 May 2010, 21:01**

Mr E wrote:The only guy I am convinced beats him 100% of the time is Big George. Head-to-head against everyone else, Marciano is, at worst, a live underdog.

I agree.

And I wouldn't describe Marciano as: "a live underdog" -
moreover... He could be more accurately described as:
"A Dangerous One-Punch Knockout Artist who never tires"

Indeed, it wouldn't be an easy night for anybody.

And as for George beating him... Maybe.

But if it goes past 6 rounds, George will tire and get his block knocked off.

Posted: **07 May 2010, 21:11**

Crease wrote:
Mr E wrote:The only guy I am convinced beats him 100% of the time is Big George. Head-to-head against everyone else, Marciano is, at worst, a live underdog.
I agree.

And I wouldn't describe Marciano as: "a live underdog" -
moreover... He could be more accurately described as:
"A Dangerous One-Punch Knockout Artist who never tires"

Indeed, it wouldn't be an easy night for anybody.

And as for George beating him... Maybe.

But if it goes past 6 rounds, George will tire and get his block knocked off.

One-punch knockout artist??

Don Cockell must have had the greatest chin of all-time.

Posted: **07 May 2010, 22:40**

"...But if it goes past 6 rounds, George will tire and get his block knocked off. " - Crease

...& if the Queen had balls, she'd be the King. Not happening, brojam 8)

Posted: **07 May 2010, 22:41**

yancey wrote:
Crease wrote:
Mr E wrote:The only guy I am convinced beats him 100% of the time is Big George. Head-to-head against everyone else, Marciano is, at worst, a live underdog.
I agree.

And I wouldn't describe Marciano as: "a live underdog" -
moreover... He could be more accurately described as:
"A Dangerous One-Punch Knockout Artist who never tires"

Indeed, it wouldn't be an easy night for anybody.

And as for George beating him... Maybe.

But if it goes past 6 rounds, George will tire and get his block knocked off.
One-punch knockout artist??

Don Cockell must have had the greatest chin of all-time.

At the same time, it's fair to say he did deliver some singular hammerblows of bone-shattering proportions. Layne, Matthews, Walcott, & several others will attest to what Marciano could do with a solitary, well-positioned punch.

Posted: **08 May 2010, 11:04**

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:
However the fact remains the heavyweight division was quite poor after WW2,
No your wrong, that is not a fact, Post WW II was filled with some very terrific fighters like Joe Louis, Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, Lee Q Murray, Elmer Ray, Jimmy Bivins. All of these men would do very well in any era.

Then Upon Joe Louis' retirement..a new young wave of young talent came into the heavyweight division Clarence Henry, Nino Valdes, Bob Baker, Earl Walls, Rex Layne, Rocky Marciano, Roland Lastarza, Coley Wallace. Some of these men were terrific amateurs like Baker, Henry, and Wallace.

Then Following Marcianos retirement...more new talent came into the heavyweight division eddie machen, floyd patterson, zora folley, harold carter, hurricane jackson, Johnny Summerlin, Cleveland Williams, Mike DeJohn.

I would hardly classify it as ever being poor.

I meant when Marciano was fighting. Most of the fighters you name never fought Marciano, with the exception of Layne, Lastarza, Louis, Charles and Walcott. I don't care what anyone says Louis was past it. He was on the slide in 1948 and didn't fight Rocky until 1951. His 8 fight winning streak prior to fighting Marciano shows that Louis' punch was pretty much gone with 5 decision wins out of 8 wins. He fought 70 rounds against 8 fighters, a poor ko percentage for someone as deadly as Louis once was and testament to the fact he wasn't the fighter he once was.

To me this sums up Marcianos career, fighting guys at that right time. Guys at the end of their careers, old fighters, fighters on losing streaks or blown up LHW's. The first LaStarza fight was one of the only times he fought a young, undefeated prospect and as everyone knows many think he was lucky to get the decision.

Posted: **08 May 2010, 11:45**

Imo marciano, had he fought the trio of earl walls, bob baker, and nino valdes, he would of undoubtedly beaten them. they were all considered to be his 50th opponent. all were in their prime. thing is, they were all inconsistant, and being hot and cold wouldnt have worked against marciano who fought with fire on fire. satterfield, jackson, etc would have fell too and for same reason. marciano fought as if his life depended on it.

BoxRec

Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.

Re: Rocky Mar.