BoxRec

Dempsey was not a big man. I've seen lots of pictures of Dempsey posing with guys in our old PAL gym when Dempsey was here in the 50s. The guys he posed with were 5-10 / 6-0 and they were Dempsey's height. I wouldn't read much into that arm span measurement, I saw where Ali's was measured on TV and it was 78. Ali had long arms and seldom if ever gave up reach to anyone. It is doubtful that Dempsey's was really 77.

Bute, at 185 is solid muscle, he takes all the water out to make 168, Dempsey could do the same.

I would take Dempsey over Bute convincingly.

It isn't all about size. I have no doubt that Chad Dawson could school Arreola. I'd bet large on it. Bowe is a skilled big man who can match the smaller man on the inside.

Saad, you're right, it's not all about size. Arreola probably should fight much lighter than he does. Carrying extra fat is usually not beneficial. Big guys like Bowe at his best, VK, WK, and Lennox Lewis are just large people. I've never stood beside Arreola, but I don't think he is in that category.

Bowe would wipe him out

John Galt wrote:Saad, you're right, it's not all about size. Arreola probably should fight much lighter than he does. Carrying extra fat is usually not beneficial. Big guys like Bowe at his best, VK, WK, and Lennox Lewis are just large people. I've never stood beside Arreola, but I don't think he is in that category.

He most certainly isn't. He won the National Golden Gloves at 178 and when he came in at a career low 229 against Damian Wills he was still overweight. If Arreola were in top shape he would probably scale in near the 205 region.

As for the hypothetical Bowe-Dempsey fight, I like Bowe to win by knockout.

John Galt wrote:Dempsey was not a big man. I've seen lots of pictures of Dempsey posing with guys in our old PAL gym when Dempsey was here in the 50s. The guys he posed with were 5-10 / 6-0 and they were Dempsey's height. I wouldn't read much into that arm span measurement, I saw where Ali's was measured on TV and it was 78. Ali had long arms and seldom if ever gave up reach to anyone. It is doubtful that Dempsey's was really 77.

Bute, at 185 is solid muscle, he takes all the water out to make 168, Dempsey could do the same.

Even if Bute is a solid 185 I'd say he was smaller then Dempsey, and by this I mean hand, wrist, and shoulder size. But that aside, what u really need to understand John and this goes for several other posters on here is that men were stronger in them days compared to now, and that is a FACT. Also u can't judge by size alone. I will give u an e.g... Wen Hide fought Bowe and he kept going down like a hooker onna busy night, all the commentators and writers where saying Hide was too small, and thats why. Now when Holy fought Bowe whos the same height and weight as Hide, it was completly different. It was the strengh and not so much the size. Tho of course reach plays a big part. However I think Dempseys crouching style would give Bowe trouble and I don't think he would have that much joy wiv his uppercut.
I see Dempsey going head and body on Bowe from the 1st bell. And Bowe would fkn hate it. And heed get starched in 6/8 rounds. You gotta understand a prime Dempsey is a much more powerful force the a Holyfield. Also may I add that Dempsey would be much harder for Bowe to hit then Holy.

gambler49 wrote:what u really need to understand John and this goes for several other posters on here is that men were stronger in them days compared to now, and that is a FACT.

Darling wrote:

gambler49 wrote:what u really need to understand John and this goes for several other posters on here is that men were stronger in them days compared to now, and that is a FACT.

It appears to me that Darling recognizes very clearly that if anyone before 1960 would have even attempted the 45 degree uppercut death blow (discussed earlier used by Eubanks), they would have killed every opponent they ever faced. Such was the strength of men before Eisenhower stepped down.

If you go back to biblical times men were up to 1000 times stronger. The Pyramids of Egypt were actually constructed by a few friends who were just wanting to do some particularly artsy landscaping.

BoxBuzz wrote:

Darling wrote:

gambler49 wrote:what u really need to understand John and this goes for several other posters on here is that men were stronger in them days compared to now, and that is a FACT.

It appears to me that Darling recognizes very clearly that if anyone before 1960 would have even attempted the 45 degree uppercut death blow (discussed earlier used by Eubanks), they would have killed every opponent they ever faced. Such was the strength of men before Eisenhower stepped down.

If you go back to biblical times men were up to 1000 times stronger. The Pyramids of Egypt were actually constructed by a few friends who were just wanting to do some particularly artsy landscaping.

One should never joke about the 45 degree death punch, Rob.

Now, I've said too much and must disappear for a while.

I think that's a wonderful idea, Collie.

John Galt wrote:Dempsey was not a big man. I've seen lots of pictures of Dempsey posing with guys in our old PAL gym when Dempsey was here in the 50s. The guys he posed with were 5-10 / 6-0 and they were Dempsey's height. I wouldn't read much into that arm span measurement, I saw where Ali's was measured on TV and it was 78. Ali had long arms and seldom if ever gave up reach to anyone. It is doubtful that Dempsey's was really 77.

Bute, at 185 is solid muscle, he takes all the water out to make 168, Dempsey could do the same.

You do know Dempsey in the 50s would've been smaller than in the 20s, don't you? There is a large amount of evidence that Dempsey was 6'1 with a 77' wingspan and your scientific analysis of gym photos won't change that.

Bute at 185 is NOT solid muscle. This is a fact. It's at least 10-15 lbs of water weight. Dempsey at 190 was not carrying this.

At first I thought the size difference would be a factor, but Dempsey was a very hard puncher with a good jaw, mentally tough, and totally dismantled a huge Jess Willard. Dempsey by KO.

Thirty votes, & we're split right down the middle. It's a very contestable fight, IMO.

dempseyfire wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Goodnight Irene was right that this would divide people. I think people are making invaild assumptions for both fighters.

I don't think you can just say that since Bowe was hurt by Hide that he would have no chance against Dempsey. You can do that with everyone. Look at Dempsey himself. He was hurt badly by Flynn, Smith, Firpo, Tunney etc.

On the other hand, you can't just say that since Bowe was bigger that Dempsey would have no chance. There are countless examples of the smaller guy winning. Dempsey himself routinely beat bigger fighters.

Bowe never fought anyone like Dempsey. The closest in style and skill would be Holyfield. Bowe did pretty well with him but didn't dominate him.
Demspey never fought anyone like Bowe. Willard and Fulton are nowhere near the same class of fighter as Bowe. By far the best fighter Dempsey fought was Tunney who had little stylewise in common with Bowe.

So this would be a difficult fight to predict. Like most big fighters who are aggressive, Bowe could be hit. However, he had a very good chin and a lot of heart. Perhaps Dempsey would hurt him. However, it would be very difficult for him to stop Bowe.
Demspey would take a lot of punishment. And yes Bowe's uppercuts are going to matter because Dempsey is not going to consistently nail Bowe and not get hit himself. Bowe was also extremely quick for a big man. Demspey would have not the huge edge that one would expect in that regard. Holyfield found that out.
A lot would depend on how discilpined Bowe was. At times he could get a little wild and go a knockout that just was not there.

.

It's comments like the one above that are so frustrating. Based on what? Bowe feasted on a bunch of gatekeepers and padded records like Seldon, Gonzales, Hide and Ferguson. The one class fighter he beat was Holyfield, who he split fights with and then in their third match was headed to a KO defeat if Evander hadn't come into the fight with Hepatitis.

Evander fought a bad fight plan in the first fight, taking the fight to Bowe on the inside thinking he'd mentally quit like he did in their previous sparring sessions, but Bowe that night brought his A-game. When Evander used his legs and moved in and out he had great success. That was Dempsey's strength, using his legs to move in and out and unleash slashing shots under a bob n'weave.

The other elite guys Bowe faces he either gets a gift decision (Tubbs) or gets saved by the utter stupidity of his opponent (Golota). Bowe is one of the most over-rated fighters in HW history, who blocked punches with his face, couldn't throw a straight right hand, and was often lazy in training and in execution.

I'd take Fulton and Willard over Bowe anytime. Fulton's chin might ensure a Bowe victory in a 3 fight series but Fulton faced and beat much tougher comp than Bowe ever did (with Evander being Bowe's lone exception, and give me Langford over Holyfield)

You want to throw out the 3rd Holyfield fight fine. I will give Holyfield the benefit of the doubt that something was wrong him.
However, Holyfield did not fight a bad game plan against Bowe in their first fight. He tried to fight on the inside and he tried to fight from the outside. Bowe was able to match him either way.
Bowe also fought a great fight in their 2nd fight. That decision could have easily went Bowe's way or been a draw.
There are only a handful of fighters in history who would have beat Holyfield in those two fights.
It's not like Bowe only fought this well in these two fights. He performed at this level in most of his fights during his prime.

Yes some of the guys that Bowe beat were "gatekeepers" no question about it. However some were good fighters. Seldon was a good fighter. Larry Donald had very good boxing skills. They were about as good as Golota.
Tyrell Biggs and Herbie Hide were decent fighters.
It's not like Bowe was struggling with these guys. He was in control for almost the entire fight against these guys.

On his way up, Bowe did have trouble with Tubbs. However, to call it a "robbery" is certainly an exaggeration.

Bowe certainly did not look good against Golota. However, part of this was due that he was getting flagarantly fouled constantly. That has to throw a fighter off. If that fight took place in Dempsey's day, Golota would have disqualified very early in the fight. And Bowe did show some guts by hanging in there until Golota was disqualified.

Compare him to Fred Fulton. Against top competition of his day Fulton got knocked out in three rounds by Wills, and in one round against Miske. He even got knocked out out by Charley Weinert, who was no more than a "gatekeeper" in his day. You can't just ignore this when evaluating Fulton.

The win over Langford was more impressive than Bowe's win over Holyfield in their first fight? Come on. Langford was 34 years old and had well over 100 fights when he fought Fulton. He was nowhere near as good as he once was. This version of Langford was nowhere near the fighter that a prime Evander Holyfield was.

Jess Willard? There is a decent amount of video of Willard. How anyone can watch him and watch Bowe and think Willard was better or would beat Bowe is mindboggling. If you think Bowe had bad defense, what can you say about Willard. He had no defense at all. Not much offense either.
Who is the best opponent that Willard beat besides a way past his prime Johnson?
Not to mention the version of Willard that Dempsey beat had not fought in three years.

Bowe could not throw a straight right hand? What? He had a very good right hand and landed it quite a bit.

If you think Demspey would have beat Bowe, that's fair enough. I am on the fence myself. However it would not be anywhere near the walk in the park.
Of course if you just pick out what you percieve to be weaknesses of Bowe, ignore Bowe's strengths and then pick out Demspey's strengths and ignore Demspey's weaknesses you are going to come to the conclusion that Dempsey would crush Bowe. However, you need to lokok at the strengths and weaknesses of both fighters.

Anyone that fights Bowe is going to get hit hard and get hit a lot.
Gunboat Smith and Fireman Flynn, Luis Firpo and Gene Tunney hurt Dempsey. You can't just make a big deal about Bowe getting hurt and ignore this. If they can hurt Dempsey, Riddick Bowe certainly can.

Ambling Alp wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:Goodnight Irene was right that this would divide people. I think people are making invaild assumptions for both fighters.

I don't think you can just say that since Bowe was hurt by Hide that he would have no chance against Dempsey. You can do that with everyone. Look at Dempsey himself. He was hurt badly by Flynn, Smith, Firpo, Tunney etc.

On the other hand, you can't just say that since Bowe was bigger that Dempsey would have no chance. There are countless examples of the smaller guy winning. Dempsey himself routinely beat bigger fighters.

Bowe never fought anyone like Dempsey. The closest in style and skill would be Holyfield. Bowe did pretty well with him but didn't dominate him.
Demspey never fought anyone like Bowe. Willard and Fulton are nowhere near the same class of fighter as Bowe. By far the best fighter Dempsey fought was Tunney who had little stylewise in common with Bowe.

So this would be a difficult fight to predict. Like most big fighters who are aggressive, Bowe could be hit. However, he had a very good chin and a lot of heart. Perhaps Dempsey would hurt him. However, it would be very difficult for him to stop Bowe.
Demspey would take a lot of punishment. And yes Bowe's uppercuts are going to matter because Dempsey is not going to consistently nail Bowe and not get hit himself. Bowe was also extremely quick for a big man. Demspey would have not the huge edge that one would expect in that regard. Holyfield found that out.
A lot would depend on how discilpined Bowe was. At times he could get a little wild and go a knockout that just was not there.

.

It's comments like the one above that are so frustrating. Based on what? Bowe feasted on a bunch of gatekeepers and padded records like Seldon, Gonzales, Hide and Ferguson. The one class fighter he beat was Holyfield, who he split fights with and then in their third match was headed to a KO defeat if Evander hadn't come into the fight with Hepatitis.

Evander fought a bad fight plan in the first fight, taking the fight to Bowe on the inside thinking he'd mentally quit like he did in their previous sparring sessions, but Bowe that night brought his A-game. When Evander used his legs and moved in and out he had great success. That was Dempsey's strength, using his legs to move in and out and unleash slashing shots under a bob n'weave.

The other elite guys Bowe faces he either gets a gift decision (Tubbs) or gets saved by the utter stupidity of his opponent (Golota). Bowe is one of the most over-rated fighters in HW history, who blocked punches with his face, couldn't throw a straight right hand, and was often lazy in training and in execution.

I'd take Fulton and Willard over Bowe anytime. Fulton's chin might ensure a Bowe victory in a 3 fight series but Fulton faced and beat much tougher comp than Bowe ever did (with Evander being Bowe's lone exception, and give me Langford over Holyfield)

You want to throw out the 3rd Holyfield fight fine. I will give Holyfield the benefit of the doubt that something was wrong him.
However, Holyfield did not fight a bad game plan against Bowe in their first fight. He tried to fight on the inside and he tried to fight from the outside. Bowe was able to match him either way.
Bowe also fought a great fight in their 2nd fight. That decision could have easily went Bowe's way or been a draw.
There are only a handful of fighters in history who would have beat Holyfield in those two fights.
It's not like Bowe only fought this well in these two fights. He performed at this level in most of his fights during his prime.

Yes some of the guys that Bowe beat were "gatekeepers" no question about it. However some were good fighters. Seldon was a good fighter. Larry Donald had very good boxing skills. They were about as good as Golota.
Tyrell Biggs and Herbie Hide were decent fighters.
It's not like Bowe was struggling with these guys. He was in control for almost the entire fight against these guys.

On his way up, Bowe did have trouble with Tubbs. However, to call it a "robbery" is certainly an exaggeration.

Bowe certainly did not look good against Golota. However, part of this was due that he was getting flagarantly fouled constantly. That has to throw a fighter off. If that fight took place in Dempsey's day, Golota would have disqualified very early in the fight. And Bowe did show some guts by hanging in there until Golota was disqualified.

Compare him to Fred Fulton. Against top competition of his day Fulton got knocked out in three rounds by Wills, and in one round against Miske. He even got knocked out out by Charley Weinert, who was no more than a "gatekeeper" in his day. You can't just ignore this when evaluating Fulton.

The win over Langford was more impressive than Bowe's win over Holyfield in their first fight? Come on. Langford was 34 years old and had well over 100 fights when he fought Fulton. He was nowhere near as good as he once was. This version of Langford was nowhere near the fighter that a prime Evander Holyfield was.

Jess Willard? There is a decent amount of video of Willard. How anyone can watch him and watch Bowe and think Willard was better or would beat Bowe is mindboggling. If you think Bowe had bad defense, what can you say about Willard. He had no defense at all. Not much offense either.
Who is the best opponent that Willard beat besides a way past his prime Johnson?
Not to mention the version of Willard that Dempsey beat had not fought in three years.

Bowe could not throw a straight right hand? What? He had a very good right hand and landed it quite a bit.

If you think Demspey would have beat Bowe, that's fair enough. I am on the fence myself. However it would not be anywhere near the walk in the park.
Of course if you just pick out what you percieve to be weaknesses of Bowe, ignore Bowe's strengths and then pick out Demspey's strengths and ignore Demspey's weaknesses you are going to come to the conclusion that Dempsey would crush Bowe. However, you need to lokok at the strengths and weaknesses of both fighters.

Anyone that fights Bowe is going to get hit hard and get hit a lot.
Gunboat Smith and Fireman Flynn, Luis Firpo and Gene Tunney hurt Dempsey. You can't just make a big deal about Bowe getting hurt and ignore this. If they can hurt Dempsey, Riddick Bowe certainly can.

Excellent post, I think Bowe beat Tubbs. He just didn't look good in doing so. I don't recall it being controversial at the time. That seems to have picked up steam through the years.

Tubbs clearly beat Bowe on my card. Bowe was completly ineffective the whole night.

Bowe threw a good STRAIGHT right hand? Show me one. He always threw it looping over the top.

Bruce Seldon and Larry Donald were about as good as Golota?? Huh??? Seldon had good offensive skills and was a fine athlete but he had a porcelain chin. And Donald was a light-hitting, defensive spoiler who acted as a gatekeeper level opponent his whole career.

And seriously, are you suggesting Bowe could've won those fights with the Pole without the low blows? Golota was whupping his ass in both fights long before he landed flush shots to the cajones . .

Willard had a fine defense . . .he could parry shots (something Bowe never did) and knew where to place his hands for defense on the inside, as well as tie up smaller fighters on the inside a la the K brothers. Just b/c two of the best HWs to ever fight in Johnson and Dempsey were able to land on the inside vs Willard doesn't mean he had poor defense. Actually just look at the 2nd and 3rd rounds vs Dempsey, even a bloodied and beaten man he manages to nullify most of Jack's subsequent offense.

Willard beat a Johnson who was past his prime but still champion and still a great fighter. Also earned a NP decision vs Luther McCarty and beat Morris and Pelkey (when Arthur was still a top dangerous fighter and not traumatized by the McCarty death). I'll take those wins to match those of Donald and Seldon anyday.

I think I had it 6-4 for Riddick. There were a lot of close rounds where neither guy did much. I don't see how you could call it a robbery with a straight face.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I think I had it 6-4 for Riddick. There were a lot of close rounds where neither guy did much. I don't see how you could call it a robbery with a straight face.

I don't recall my exact score but don't remember giving Bowe more than 3 rounds. Shame it used to be up on Youtube but has been taken down.

dempseyfire wrote:Tubbs clearly beat Bowe on my card. Bowe was completly ineffective the whole night.

Bowe threw a good STRAIGHT right hand? Show me one. He always threw it looping over the top.

Bruce Seldon and Larry Donald were about as good as Golota?? Huh??? Seldon had good offensive skills and was a fine athlete but he had a porcelain chin. And Donald was a light-hitting, defensive spoiler who acted as a gatekeeper level opponent his whole career.

And seriously, are you suggesting Bowe could've won those fights with the Pole without the low blows? Golota was whupping his ass in both fights long before he landed flush shots to the cajones . .

Willard had a fine defense . . .he could parry shots (something Bowe never did) and knew where to place his hands for defense on the inside, as well as tie up smaller fighters on the inside a la the K brothers. Just b/c two of the best HWs to ever fight in Johnson and Dempsey were able to land on the inside vs Willard doesn't mean he had poor defense. Actually just look at the 2nd and 3rd rounds vs Dempsey, even a bloodied and beaten man he manages to nullify most of Jack's subsequent offense.

Willard beat a Johnson who was past his prime but still champion and still a great fighter. Also earned a NP decision vs Luther McCarty and beat Morris and Pelkey (when Arthur was still a top dangerous fighter and not traumatized by the McCarty death). I'll take those wins to match those of Donald and Seldon anyday.

Sorry that that you don't like Bowe's right hand. Clearly it didn't work for him at all. I will answer your points as soon as you show the courtesy of answering the majority of mine.

Ambling Alp wrote:


If that fight took place in Dempsey's day, Golota would have disqualified very early in the fight. .

Dempsey himself was a fine low blower. one in the nuts then one over the top