Jim Jeffries vs. Joe Frazier!

[Panzerfaust]

With a lenient ref i can see Jeffries leaning on and muscling Frazier around for a points win
Im certain of one thing : there wont be a 10 count

[Goodnight, Irene]

With a lenient ref i can see Jeffries leaning on and muscling Frazier around for a points win
Im certain of one thing : there wont be a 10 count

Don't rule it out if the conditions are right. By his own admission, Frazier was spent after fifteen with Ali in their first meet. Shrink the gloves, set the boys out under the midday Ohio or Nevada, sun, & set it up for twenty-five rounds. Jeffries might well get him for the full count.

[Badhusker]

Jeffries by KO. Joe didn't do well against big guys that hit hard. Not saying Jeffries is a George Foreman.

[raylawpc]

Separated by 70 years, differences in rules, conditions, equipment, training techniques, boxing techniques, etc., I think its impossible to say with any reasonable certainty who would win this one.

However, Jeffries loved to fight guys who tried to press him, and Frazier was unable to take a backward step.

[zojo]

In case you're interested, the November 1972 issue of "International Boxing" (magazine) matched Frazier against a number of the past heavyweight champions. In the match-ups, Frazier travelled back in time to fight under his predecessors' conditions. Here are the results the magazine editors came up with:

v. John L. Sullivan: W-KO23 (fight to the finish)
v. Bob Fitzsimmons: L-KOby13 (25 rounds)
v. Jim Jeffries: L-KOby19 (25 rounds)
v. Jack Johnson: L-KOby10 (15 rounds)
v. Jess Willard: W-Dec.15 (15 rounds)
v. Jack Dempsey: L-KOby3 (15 rounds)
v. Gene Tunney: L-Dec.10 (10 rounds)
v. Max Baer: W-TKO6 (15 rounds)
v. Joe Louis: L-KOby5 (15 rounds)
v. Rocky Marciano: L-KOby8 (15 rounds)

I just don't see that happening. I just can't see a 205 lbs Frazier losing to 168 lbs. Fitzsimmons. I cant see Joe giving him enough space to get hit with a solarplexus shot. He'd be all over him like a swarm of bees.

[Goodnight, Irene]

You look greater in retrospect, Zojo. Most great fighters do, anyway.

[Panzerfaust]

You look greater in retrospect, Zojo. Most great fighters do, anyway.

or they are badly underrated,,, one outa two...

I woulda loved to see Fitzimmons in a all time super middle tourney though :p

[Goodnight, Irene]

You look greater in retrospect, Zojo. Most great fighters do, anyway.

or they are badly underrated,,, one outa two...

I woulda loved to see Fitzimmons in a all time super middle tourney though :p

The families of those competing against him sure wouldn't.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I doubt Fitz would land a punch on Roy. His greatness is without question, but I've always felt that Fitz was a guy who is better left in his era. Though he was a huge puncher, hard to imagine him doing much with Jones.

[Goodnight, Irene]

I would be very interested to see how Frazier handles Jeffries' superb strength, his smothering, aggressive assault at close-quarters, & his iron jaw, will, & tremendous conditioning. It would be interesting.

Am I dramatically off-base to consider Jeffries as possibly a bigger, stronger, more durable version of Frazier?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Nope, I think there is a pretty significant athletic difference in Joe's favor. that's where I side with him, but Jeffries was a big, strong dude. No doubt about that.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Jeffries had some great athletic qualities, though. In what sense would you say Frazier trumps him in this regard?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I think Joe was faster of hand and foot, just more of a fast twitch athlete where Jeffries was brute force. I'm not ruling out Jim at all here, it's just a hunch for me that Frazier's underrated speed pulls it out.

[raylawpc]

I would be very interested to see how Frazier handles Jeffries' superb strength, his smothering, aggressive assault at close-quarters, & his iron jaw, will, & tremendous conditioning. It would be interesting.

Am I dramatically off-base to consider Jeffries as possibly a bigger, stronger, more durable version of Frazier?

Yes, I think you are. Jeffries would attack when facing a boxer like Corbett. But he much preferred fighting guys who came to him - which is why I think he would have relished fighting a guy like Frazier. Jeffries style was actually much closer to Marciano's than Frazier's, based on contemporary newspaper accounts and what little film we have of him. Imagine, if you will, a 6'2" 215lb Rocky Marciano, but one whose power hand was the left instead of the right, and you have Jeffries. I have another article from an old-timer writing in a circa-1935 Ring magazine that stated Schmeling's style was reminiscent of Jeffries.

[raylawpc]

Nope, I think there is a pretty significant athletic difference in Joe's favor. that's where I side with him, but Jeffries was a big, strong dude. No doubt about that.

Jeffries was a great all-around athlete. He could do a six-foot high jump (standing), and ran the 100-yard dash in just over 10 seconds - a remarkable feat for a man 6'2" and 215 pounds at the turn of the century. Corbett called him the fastest big man he had ever seen. I will see if I can find some quotes tonight from contemporary newspapers about Jim's overall athletic prowess.

Frazier, on the otherhand, was not a great all-around athlete. He performed poorly in the ABC Superstar athletic competition in 1973.

[zojo]

Nope, I think there is a pretty significant athletic difference in Joe's favor. that's where I side with him, but Jeffries was a big, strong dude. No doubt about that.

Jeffries was a great all-around athlete. He could do a six-foot high jump (standing), and ran the 100-yard dash in just over 10 seconds - a remarkable feat for a man 6'2" and 215 pounds at the turn of the century. Corbett called him the fastest big man he had ever seen. I will see if I can find some quotes tonight from contemporary newspapers about Jim's overall athletic prowess.

Frazier, on the otherhand, was not a great all-around athlete. He performed poorly in the ABC Superstar athletic competition in 1973.

But that was because he doesn't know how to swim and yet had to compete in a swimming unit. That was a big reason why he didn't get many points.

Lennox Lewis also did poorly in the Superstars show, but he is head and shoulders above many guys listed in this thread would lose to Lewis.

On the other hand, Jason Sehorn won that competition all the time, but couldn't make it through a single NFL season without getting hurt. Can't help your team if you can high jump 6'5" but can't last a season without pulling a hamstring.

Oh, and did anyone remember Holyfield beating Carl Lewis in the 800 meter?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Nope, I think there is a pretty significant athletic difference in Joe's favor. that's where I side with him, but Jeffries was a big, strong dude. No doubt about that.

Jeffries was a great all-around athlete. He could do a six-foot high jump (standing), and ran the 100-yard dash in just over 10 seconds - a remarkable feat for a man 6'2" and 215 pounds at the turn of the century. Corbett called him the fastest big man he had ever seen. I will see if I can find some quotes tonight from contemporary newspapers about Jim's overall athletic prowess.

Frazier, on the otherhand, was not a great all-around athlete. He performed poorly in the ABC Superstar athletic competition in 1973.

Joe's inability to swim doesn't have much to do with Boxing. I doubt Jeffries would be using his speed to run away from Frazier either. but I must admit I didn't know James was looked at that glowingly as an athlete and that is interesting.

[Goodnight, Irene]

He was, Saad.

[raylawpc]

Nope, I think there is a pretty significant athletic difference in Joe's favor. that's where I side with him, but Jeffries was a big, strong dude. No doubt about that.

Jeffries was a great all-around athlete. He could do a six-foot high jump (standing), and ran the 100-yard dash in just over 10 seconds - a remarkable feat for a man 6'2" and 215 pounds at the turn of the century. Corbett called him the fastest big man he had ever seen. I will see if I can find some quotes tonight from contemporary newspapers about Jim's overall athletic prowess.

Frazier, on the otherhand, was not a great all-around athlete. He performed poorly in the ABC Superstar athletic competition in 1973.

But that was because he doesn't know how to swim and yet had to compete in a swimming unit. That was a big reason why he didn't get many points.

Lennox Lewis also did poorly in the Superstars show, but he is head and shoulders above many guys listed in this thread would lose to Lewis.

On the other hand, Jason Sehorn won that competition all the time, but couldn't make it through a single NFL season without getting hurt. Can't help your team if you can high jump 6'5" but can't last a season without pulling a hamstring.

Oh, and did anyone remember Holyfield beating Carl Lewis in the 800 meter?

Zojo, my friend Saad wrote that "there is a pretty significant athletic difference in Joe's favor." One can be a great boxer and not a great all-around athlete. As an athlete, the record indicates that Jeffries was a great all-around athlete, whereas Frazier was not. (Frazier failed to win, place or show in a single event in the Superstars competition, as I recall.) There is little doubt that both Frazier and Jeffries are all-time great heavyweight champions, but if you are making your judgment purely on athleticism, then I think Jeffries has to get the nod.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Boxers rarely ever did well on the Superstars. That doesn't mean Frazier had slower hands or feet than Jeffries in the ring, does it?

[raylawpc]

Boxers rarely ever did well on the Superstars. That doesn't mean Frazier had slower hands or feet than Jeffries in the ring, does it?

No it doesn't. But my response was to your original statement comparing their athleticism. Seventy years separated these two guys, so I have no idea whether Jeffries or Frazier had faster hands or feet, and my comment was not directed as to who was the better fighter. But Jeffries was considered a great ahtlete (not just a great boxer) by his peers. On the otherhand, I've never heard anyone laud Frazier's overall athletic prowess.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I already acknowledged that I was unaware of Jeffries running ability but I don't think I need to change my pick in the fight. I never ruled out Jim to begin with. As far as frazier, I think his speed is underrated. I was wrongly dumping on Jim as an athlete more than I was calling Frazier Roy Jones.

All in all, Boxers don't compare favorably as athletes with the top guys in other big sports in the modern era. So i wouldn't spend a whole lot of time on the Superstars.

[raylawpc]

Okay.

[zojo]

Jeffries was a great all-around athlete. He could do a six-foot high jump (standing), and ran the 100-yard dash in just over 10 seconds - a remarkable feat for a man 6'2" and 215 pounds at the turn of the century. Corbett called him the fastest big man he had ever seen. I will see if I can find some quotes tonight from contemporary newspapers about Jim's overall athletic prowess.

Frazier, on the otherhand, was not a great all-around athlete. He performed poorly in the ABC Superstar athletic competition in 1973.

But that was because he doesn't know how to swim and yet had to compete in a swimming unit. That was a big reason why he didn't get many points.

Lennox Lewis also did poorly in the Superstars show, but he is head and shoulders above many guys listed in this thread would lose to Lewis.

On the other hand, Jason Sehorn won that competition all the time, but couldn't make it through a single NFL season without getting hurt. Can't help your team if you can high jump 6'5" but can't last a season without pulling a hamstring.

Oh, and did anyone remember Holyfield beating Carl Lewis in the 800 meter?

Zojo, my friend Saad wrote that "there is a pretty significant athletic difference in Joe's favor." One can be a great boxer and not a great all-around athlete. As an athlete, the record indicates that Jeffries was a great all-around athlete, whereas Frazier was not. (Frazier failed to win, place or show in a single event in the Superstars competition, as I recall.) There is little doubt that both Frazier and Jeffries are all-time great heavyweight champions, but if you are making your judgment purely on athleticism, then I think Jeffries has to get the nod.

My point had nothing to do with how athletic Joe is. Rather, my point was that he didn't do well on Superstars in part because he doesn't know how to swim. That was the whole point I was trying to make. I was not comparing him to another boxer. Just stating that he can't swim and therefore did not get many points on a TV show.

[raylawpc]

But that was because he doesn't know how to swim and yet had to compete in a swimming unit. That was a big reason why he didn't get many points.

Lennox Lewis also did poorly in the Superstars show, but he is head and shoulders above many guys listed in this thread would lose to Lewis.

On the other hand, Jason Sehorn won that competition all the time, but couldn't make it through a single NFL season without getting hurt. Can't help your team if you can high jump 6'5" but can't last a season without pulling a hamstring.

Oh, and did anyone remember Holyfield beating Carl Lewis in the 800 meter?

Zojo, my friend Saad wrote that "there is a pretty significant athletic difference in Joe's favor." One can be a great boxer and not a great all-around athlete. As an athlete, the record indicates that Jeffries was a great all-around athlete, whereas Frazier was not. (Frazier failed to win, place or show in a single event in the Superstars competition, as I recall.) There is little doubt that both Frazier and Jeffries are all-time great heavyweight champions, but if you are making your judgment purely on athleticism, then I think Jeffries has to get the nod.

My point had nothing to do with how athletic Joe is. Rather, my point was that he didn't do well on Superstars in part because he doesn't know how to swim. That was the whole point I was trying to make. I was not comparing him to another boxer. Just stating that he can't swim and therefore did not get many points on a TV show.

Yeah, he damn near drown as I recall. If memory serves, Frazier did not win, place or show in any of the events, so he had trouble with more than just swimming. Saad was making a judgment on athleticism. My point is that Jeffries was probably a better all-around athlete than Frazier.