BoxRec

I think head to head Whitaker could beat Pac as well (but it's not a given), but you have to factor in accomplishments/competition, and Manny is head and shoulders above Pea in that regard.

From the perspective of a Marquez fan, I had Pacquiao winning the first fight, & Marquez edging out the second. Pacquiao won the first one by a somewhat wider margin, IMO, than Marquez did the return fight.

I fancy Pacquiao beats Chavez, but loses to Arguello & Whitaker. I could not ever envision Pacquiao beating Whitaker, personally.

BarryWashington wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:From the perspective of a Marquez fan, I had Pacquiao winning the first fight, & Marquez edging out the second. Pacquiao won the first one by a somewhat wider margin, IMO, than Marquez did the return fight.

I fancy Pacquiao beats Chavez, but loses to Arguello & Whitaker. I could not ever envision Pacquiao beating Whitaker, personally.

I just watched Juan Manuel Marquez/Manny Pacquiao I and here's how I scored it:

Round 1: 10-6 MP
Round 2: 10-9 MP
Round 3: 10-9 JMM
Round 4: 10-9 JMM
Round 5: 10-9 JMM
Round 6: 10-9 JMM
Round 7: 10-9 MP
Round 8: 10-9 JMM
Round 9: 10-9 MP
Round 10: 10-9 MP
Round 11: 10-9 JMM
Round 12: 10-9 MP

114-111, Manny Pacquiao (6-6). Had JMM not been knocked down once in the first round then it would have been a draw on my scorecard. In Round 8, Lederman gave the round to Pacquiao and I think I heard Merchant say he saw it as a draw. I, on the other hand, thought it was a very close round that JMM edged out.

You mean knocked down 3 times . . . .

tzyuforever wrote:Has there ever been a lone brave soul who didn't rate SRR as #1? I suppose they would have been led into a dark alley and never seen from again in any case. I honestly don't think I've seen any list that didn't have him #1. A consensus in boxing is very rare.

I always put Harry Greb number 1.

dempseyfire wrote:I think head to head Whitaker could beat Pac as well (but it's not a given), but you have to factor in accomplishments/competition, and Manny is head and shoulders above Pea in that regard.

Head and shoulders? That may be the biggest exaggeration I've ever heard. I rate Whitaker over Manny without any hesitation.

BarryWashington wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:From the perspective of a Marquez fan, I had Pacquiao winning the first fight, & Marquez edging out the second. Pacquiao won the first one by a somewhat wider margin, IMO, than Marquez did the return fight.

I fancy Pacquiao beats Chavez, but loses to Arguello & Whitaker. I could not ever envision Pacquiao beating Whitaker, personally.

I just watched Juan Manuel Marquez/Manny Pacquiao I and here's how I scored it:

Round 1: 10-6 MP
Round 2: 10-9 MP
Round 3: 10-9 JMM
Round 4: 10-9 JMM
Round 5: 10-9 JMM
Round 6: 10-9 JMM
Round 7: 10-9 MP
Round 8: 10-9 JMM
Round 9: 10-9 MP
Round 10: 10-9 MP
Round 11: 10-9 JMM
Round 12: 10-9 MP

114-111, Manny Pacquiao (6-6). Had JMM not been knocked down once in the first round then it would have been a draw on my scorecard. In Round 8, Lederman gave the round to Pacquiao and I think I heard Merchant say he saw it as a draw. I, on the other hand, thought it was a very close round that JMM edged out.

I had the same score, but I had it for Marquez.

BarryWashington wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

BarryWashington wrote: I just watched Juan Manuel Marquez/Manny Pacquiao I and here's how I scored it:

Round 1: 10-6 MP
Round 2: 10-9 MP
Round 3: 10-9 JMM
Round 4: 10-9 JMM
Round 5: 10-9 JMM
Round 6: 10-9 JMM
Round 7: 10-9 MP
Round 8: 10-9 JMM
Round 9: 10-9 MP
Round 10: 10-9 MP
Round 11: 10-9 JMM
Round 12: 10-9 MP

114-111, Manny Pacquiao (6-6). Had JMM not been knocked down once in the first round then it would have been a draw on my scorecard. In Round 8, Lederman gave the round to Pacquiao and I think I heard Merchant say he saw it as a draw. I, on the other hand, thought it was a very close round that JMM edged out.

I had the same score, but I had it for Marquez.

That's strange to me. That would mean that you had JMM winning 9 rounds. Very interesting.

Yup, I gave Manny the first two and one of the later ones. I thought JMM gained a pretty firm control of the fight. But there were enough close rds that I don't have issue with a card for Manny. A draw was pretty fair imo. I had Pac winning the rematch by a point when most people thought Marquez won.

I thought JMM won both fights. I had the first encounter 113-112 and the return 114-113. Both fights could have gone either way, despite there being a fair share people who act like Marquez was robbed twice. The line "Marquez won both fights" shows up a lot on this forum. Given the judging error made in the first bout, I can understand why Pacqiauo might feel as if he was the only one robbed of victory.

I can't find my scorecard for the first fight but my card for the second fight is posted below. There were many close rounds in both fights, so I really don't have a problem with the official verdicts or people that have Pacquiao edging both clashes.

10-9 P
10-9 M
10-8 P
10-9 P
10-9 M
10-9 M
10-9 M
10-9 M
10-9 P
10-9 P
10-9 M
10-9 M

sg1985 wrote:Just read other posts, are Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles and Gene Tunney not heavyweights?

Ezzard Charles and Gene Tunney were in their primes at 175.

Joe Walcott refers to Barbados Joe Walcott of the early 1900s.

sg1985 wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

sg1985 wrote:Just read other posts, are Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles and Gene Tunney not heavyweights?

Ezzard Charles and Gene Tunney were in their primes at 175.

Joe Walcott refers to Barbados Joe Walcott of the early 1900s.

Cheers, I assumed he meant Jersey Joe Walcott. My boxing history knowledge is a little limited.

No problem, the history of boxing is so deep I'm learning new stuff all the time myself.

The original Walcott was a far superior force, SG. Worth checking out.

sg1985 wrote:1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Willie Pep
4. Benny Leonard
5. Roberto Duran
6. Ray Leonard
7. Joe Gans
8. Harry Greb
9. Jimmy Wilde
10. Stanley Ketchel
11. Julio Cesar Chavez
12. Archie Moore
13. Barney Ross
14. Marvin Hagler
15. Jake Lamotta
16. Sandy Saddler
17. Emile Griffith
18. Tommy Hearns
19. Ted Lewis
20. Oscar De La Hoya
21. Alexis Arguello
22. Pernell Whitaker
23. Marco Antonio Barrera
24. Eder Jofre
25. Roy Jones Jr

Forgive my ignorance of all the old timers.

Ignorance is selling yourself short. My only real question is modern. How do you find Chavez so far ahead of Whitaker? They were anything but close in the ring. And for me the whole Chavez was past it is overdone. 142 was neither mans best weight and Chavez went into the fight as the consensus p4p #1 fighter in the world. Granted, that mythical title and a quarter will get you a nickel. But Pea wasn't prime either. It's eerily similar to Holyfield/Tyson.

These are my top 25 non heavyweights ever:
1. Henry Armstrong
2. Sugar Ray Robinson
3. Sam Langford
4. Roberto Duran
5. Willie Pep
6. Harry Greb
7. Jimmy Wilde
8. Joe Gans
9. Benny Leonard
10. Ezzard Charles
11. Tony Canzoneri
12. Sandy Saddler
13. Carlos Monzon
14. Archie Moore
15. Sugar Ray Leonard
16. Pernell Whitaker
17. Julio Cesar Chavez
18. Eder Jofre
19. Marvin Hagler
20. Ike Williams
21. Mickey Walker
22. Alexis Arguello
23. Stanley Ketchel
24. Emile Griffith
25. Barney Ross

dempseyfire wrote:

sg1985 wrote:Just read other posts, are Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles and Gene Tunney not heavyweights?

Ezzard Charles and Gene Tunney were in their primes at 175.

Joe Walcott refers to Barbados Joe Walcott of the early 1900s.

The Barbados Demon one of the greates Welters of all time!

Mickey Walker was greater than Marvin Hagler.

BarryWashington wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Mickey Walker was greater than Marvin Hagler.

Eh, I don't know about that one.

I do. C'mon. Only thing Marvin has over Mickey is familiarity with people making lists.

sg1985 wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: Ignorance is selling yourself short.

Well done for coming straight in and labelling yourself as such a dick, quite impressive in such a short sentence, only really rivalled by 'I am a dick'.

LOL, read it again. Your list wasn't bad. You called yourself ignorant to older fighters, I thought you did fine. So the only dick post was from you.

Wonder how long Marvin Hagler hangs with Max Schmeling & Jack Sharkey.

No need for an apology, that tag fits me at times. This just wasn't one of them.

It was definitely funny, I really did LOL. But back to the topic at hand. If you wouldn't mind indulging me. How do you see Chavez ahead of Whitaker?

sg1985 wrote:Funny really though, I could have just wrote 'I am a dick'.

to both of you

The results are in! I added them up using Jezzmundo's system.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Harry Greb
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Ezzard Charles
5. Sam Langford
6. Willie Pep
7. Roberto Duran
8. Benny Leonard
9. Archie Moore
10. Ray Leonard
11. Mickey Walker
12. Sandy Saddler
13. Carlos Monzon
14. Joe Gans
15. Jimmy Wilde
16. Marvin Hagler
17. Barney Ross
18. Emile Griffith
19. Tony Canzoneri
20. Gene Tunney
21. Eder Jofre
22. Bob Fitzsimmons
23. Thomas Hearns
24. Julio Cesar Chavez
25. Stanley Ketchel


Gans and Wilde tied at #14. Gans won tie-breaker by being rated higher on more voters ballots 5-4 1 ( 1 voter did not vote for either.)

Hagler and Ross tied at #16. Hagler won tie-breaker 6-4.

Griffith and Canzoneri tied at #18. Griffith won tie-breaker 5-4-1.

It was pretty interesting.

I looked at the voting a little closer and some interesting things:

Chavez was actually only on 3 people ballots. However, those people had him high enough that he still had enough total points to finish #24. Two people had him #11.

The top 21 fighters were on at leat 8 of the 10 ballots; with the exception of Carlos Monzon who was on 7 of the 10 but still finished #13.
After #21, no fighter was on more than 5 of the 10 ballots.

Besides Chavez, the greatest difference in opinion was over Monzon. Three people did not have him in their top 25. However three other people had him rated at least 8th.

Two people did not have Sam Langford in their Top 25.

My guess is that some people have Langford as a HW and so did not select him. I checked on other lists first. Enough people included him so I went ahead...

I can't believe anyone would leave him off otherwise.

I can think of one list that you wouldn't have seen Chavez if we went to 50.