BoxRec

Holyfield also had a set of balls between his legs instead of the shrivelled nubbins between Tyson's. Chin and mental strnegth alone always make Holyfield Tyson's better, for my money.

dempseyfire wrote:Tyson loses to Douglas with Cus alive or not.

Way too many Tyson fans conjure up Cus D'Amato like some magical fairy who via his magic sprinkle dust made Tyson a forever disciplined, sane individual who would never self-destruct. And even that said, Douglas boxed a perfect fight vs Tyson and styles-wise OWNED him that night, regardless of Tyson's personal issues.

Tyson screwed over 200 japanese groupies in a month. He had an incompetent Quiche maker in his corner who forgot to keep the ice cold in the corner.He hadnt had a proper training camp in 19-20 months and had been on the slide ever since.

Cus was the only one who could beat and slap Tyson into listening. The only one who could tell him he looked like shit and make him motivated.

Of course Cus also said boxing was mostly mental, and the Douglas who turned up that night was a man possessed and devoid of intimidation. There is a chance Douglas would have won anyway but I saw enough to see that if even that bum version of Tyson could floor Douglas I think a prime one rips his face to shreds within 4 rounds.

Speaking of how determined and focused douglas was, it would be great if the hw's of today had that same quality. Now they just take title fights as a shot to earn a good payhcheck and give little to no effort.

Cus died in late 1985 - Tyson's first year as a pro. He was still munching on stiffs, beginners, and also rans in 1985 - I don't think he was in his prime yet.

The better question I think is "Who beats Tyson in his Prime (Before Jim Jacobs' death)?" Things went to hell in a hand basket for Tyson after Jacobs died in early 1988, just before Tyson's biggest career win against Michael Spinks. Jacobs, who was an outstanding athlete himself, was able to communicate effectively with Mike, keep him under control, and protect him from bad influences like Don King. Tyson liked Jacobs and they had a great relationship. But Bill Cayton had no relationship with Tyson and, after Jacobs died, the wheels came off the Tyson wagon.

BarryWashington wrote:I don't see a prime Tyson losing to anyone other than possibly a prime Holyfield. (In which I'd give a slight edge to Iron Mike).

I'd be curious to see a prime Witherspoon take on a prime Tyson, and I'd be curious to see a prime Mercer take on a prime Tyson.

i'd of loved to have seen tyson-witherspoon

Thing about Prime Tyson is he was like an updated Jack Dempsey. Back before Dempsey's heydey fighters, especially HWs had gotten used to fighting a fairly torrid pace over an uncountable number of rounds, often making for endurance chess matches come to life. Dempsey however, fought like a pitbull that just got unleashed and set about trying to tear his opponent's head off. Tyson was like another similar shock to the HW system because in the 80's even the HWs had generally gotten used to trying to be more skill-oriented boxers looking to score points rather than inflict pain. But then Tyson arrived with the seeming intent to want to ice somebody right there in front of the world.

Prime Tyson was an absolute beast in the early rounds and if you got clipped there you'd be in a world of trouble. I think Tyson would've savaged a number of ATGs before they would even know what was going on.

I think the most interesting matchups for Prime Tyson would've included Prime versions of Dempsey, Bowe, Holyfield, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Lewis, and Foreman. Tyson mostly ate up guys who tried to rely overly on pure boxing skill and trickiness. He had his biggest problems with massive guys who leaned on him or otherwise were able to match muscle with him on the inside. All of those mentioned would've given Tyson an absolute war and if they survived the early onslaught would've likely taken him out late. Mike wound up being a "live by the gun" type of fighter who either scored the KO or got KO'd himself.

mugabi wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:Tyson loses to Douglas with Cus alive or not.

Way too many Tyson fans conjure up Cus D'Amato like some magical fairy who via his magic sprinkle dust made Tyson a forever disciplined, sane individual who would never self-destruct. And even that said, Douglas boxed a perfect fight vs Tyson and styles-wise OWNED him that night, regardless of Tyson's personal issues.

Tyson screwed over 200 japanese groupies in a month. He had an incompetent Quiche maker in his corner who forgot to keep the ice cold in the corner.He hadnt had a proper training camp in 19-20 months and had been on the slide ever since.

Cus was the only one who could beat and slap Tyson into listening. The only one who could tell him he looked like poop and make him motivated.

Of course also said boxing was mostly mental, and the Douglas who turned up that night was a man possessed and devoid of intimidation. There is a chance Douglas would have won anyway but I saw enough to see that if even that bum version of Tyson could floor Douglas I think a prime one rips his face to shreds within 4 rounds.

Yeah. Cos no boxer in history ever had poor prep before a fight they lost, until this saddest of told & re-told sob stories.

Fourstarzzzz wrote:Speaking of how determined and focused douglas was, it would be great if the hw's of today had that same quality. Now they just take title fights as a shot to earn a good payhcheck and give little to no effort.

In fairness, & before we over-rated Douglas, he put all that together for one night only --- kind of like a Circus visiting a town, or something. That's not as special as history records.

raylawpc wrote:Cus died in late 1985 - Tyson's first year as a pro. He was still munching on stiffs, beginners, and also rans in 1985 - I don't think he was in his prime yet.

The better question I think is "Who beats Tyson in his Prime (Before Jim Jacobs' death)?" Things went to hell in a hand basket for Tyson after Jacobs died in early 1988, just before Tyson's biggest career win against Michael Spinks. Jacobs, who was an outstanding athlete himself, was able to communicate effectively with Mike, keep him under control, and protect him from bad influences like Don King. Tyson liked Jacobs and they had a great relationship. But Bill Cayton had no relationship with Tyson and, after Jacobs died, the wheels came off the Tyson wagon.

Finally!

Someone mentioned Jim Jacobs.

Losing Jacobs was the real key, as pointed out.

I find it hard to believe that anyone believes Tyson was in anywhere near his peak shape and focused for the Douglas fight, unless I'm missing something, which I don't believe I am.

Srebmun wrote:I find it hard to believe that anyone believes Tyson was in anywhere near his peak shape and focused for the Douglas fight, unless I'm missing something, which I don't believe I am.

You're not missing anything.

Not to take anything away from Douglas, but Tyson was nowhere near ready for him.

Never heard the story about Tyson and the 200 groupies.

How long was he in Tokyo before the fight??

Diamond WEAPON wrote:Thing about Prime Tyson is he was like an updated Jack Dempsey. Back before Dempsey's heydey fighters, especially HWs had gotten used to fighting a fairly torrid pace over an uncountable number of rounds, often making for endurance chess matches come to life. Dempsey however, fought like a pitbull that just got unleashed and set about trying to tear his opponent's head off. Tyson was like another similar shock to the HW system because in the 80's even the HWs had generally gotten used to trying to be more skill-oriented boxers looking to score points rather than inflict pain. But then Tyson arrived with the seeming intent to want to ice somebody right there in front of the world.

Prime Tyson was an absolute beast in the early rounds and if you got clipped there you'd be in a world of trouble. I think Tyson would've savaged a number of ATGs before they would even know what was going on.

I think the most interesting matchups for Prime Tyson would've included Prime versions of Dempsey, Bowe, Holyfield, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Lewis, and Foreman. Tyson mostly ate up guys who tried to rely overly on pure boxing skill and trickiness. He had his biggest problems with massive guys who leaned on him or otherwise were able to match muscle with him on the inside. All of those mentioned would've given Tyson an absolute war and if they survived the early onslaught would've likely taken him out late. Mike wound up being a "live by the gun" type of fighter who either scored the KO or got KO'd himself.

I would probably slightly disagree, in retrospect its easy to say big guys with muscle who leaned on him got the job done against Tyson. Sure at the end of his career Tyson went that way against Lewis. But one must remember he also went that way against Williams and Mcbride so I really dont rate Lewis's victory over Tyson as meaning anything other than a win over a totally shot and worn out fighter sick of fighting.

In his prime it was tricky boxers like Tillis, Green , Tucker and even Ribalta who stretched Tyson the most, and arguably even they lost almost every round with the exception of Tillis and perhaps Thomas. Pinklon Thomas had hs moments but by the same token Thomas ended up half dead and so did other boxers Biggs and Tubbs. I really think the prime Tyson was not as is widely put out just an early round threat he was dangerous for 12 rounds. Watch the Bonecrusher, Tillis and Ribalta fights Tyson was fighting just as hard in the last round as the first.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Fourstarzzzz wrote:Speaking of how determined and focused douglas was, it would be great if the hw's of today had that same quality. Now they just take title fights as a shot to earn a good payhcheck and give little to no effort.

In fairness, & before we over-rated Douglas, he put all that together for one night only --- kind of like a Circus visiting a town, or something. That's not as special as history records.

No one here has "over-rated" Douglas. Oh and its "before we overrate" not "before we overrated"..... that's poor grammar mate!

Likewise comparing his achievement in being the first one to beat Tyson, albeit an ill prepared Tyson, as being akin in terms of occasion as Coco the Clown visiting your suburb in Brisbane isn't very fair I would humbly suggest! It was one of the biggest shocks in boxing history lest you need those of us around back than to remind you!

mugabi wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Fourstarzzzz wrote:Speaking of how determined and focused douglas was, it would be great if the hw's of today had that same quality. Now they just take title fights as a shot to earn a good payhcheck and give little to no effort.

In fairness, & before we over-rated Douglas, he put all that together for one night only --- kind of like a Circus visiting a town, or something. That's not as special as history records.

No one here has "over-rated" Douglas. Oh and its "before we overrate" not "before we overrated"..... that's poor grammar mate!

Likewise comparing his achievement in being the first one to beat Tyson, albeit an ill prepared Tyson, as being akin in terms of occasion as Coco the Clown visiting your suburb in Brisbane isn't very fair I would humbly suggest! It was one of the biggest shocks in boxing history lest you need those of us around back than to remind you!

On paper maybe, in reality and in hindsight, never in a million years.

Fourstarzzzz wrote:I believe Cus really did have a huge effect on Tyson. I mean looked what happened after his death....lost to Douglas, problems with wife, goes to jail. He seemed a bit more in control with Cus there.

I think Lewis had the best chance of beating him eventually, but it would have been a UD or SD , not by KO.

People don't mention that he won the Heavyweight title and defended it 9x after Cus died. Myth.

I'm sorry but, I don't buy the myth that Tyson has a longer reign after Douglas. Every time someone stood up to Tyson, he lost. Tyson lost to Holyfield and when he knew he couldn't beat him the second time, he found a way out. Tyson was a great young prodigy, great phenomenon in boxing that we won't atleast see in a good decade, maybe more, but he flamed out. The fame, domestic troubles, money, and overall he was a guy who got too much too soon.

Cus, Jim were the Anchors for Tyson. I beleive they kept him on the path. I do not believe he would have lost to douglas or went to jail if he had these two looking over his shoulder. The years in jail sealed his fate as he would never be the same.

Fourstarzzzz wrote:Cus, Jim were the Anchors for Tyson. I beleive they kept him on the path. I do not believe he would have lost to douglas or went to jail if he had these two looking over his shoulder. The years in jail sealed his fate as he would never be the same.

Cus died in 1985 - four years before Tyson's troubles surfaced. How exactly did Cus serve as an anchor for him? It's true that Cus guided him through his amateur career, and started him out in the pros. But it was Jim Jacobs who guided him to the championship and through his glory years. Jim Jacobs does not get enough credit for making Tyson a champion. Cus seems to get all the credit, and Jacobs is ignored. I do believe that if Jim Jacobs hadn't died, Tyson would not have lost to Buster Douglas and I believe we would be talking about Tyson in the same breath as the greats of the past like Dempsey, Louis, Marciano and Ali.

mugabi wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Fourstarzzzz wrote:Speaking of how determined and focused douglas was, it would be great if the hw's of today had that same quality. Now they just take title fights as a shot to earn a good payhcheck and give little to no effort.

In fairness, & before we over-rated Douglas, he put all that together for one night only --- kind of like a Circus visiting a town, or something. That's not as special as history records.

No one here has "over-rated" Douglas. Oh and its "before we overrate" not "before we overrated"..... that's poor grammar mate!

Likewise comparing his achievement in being the first one to beat Tyson, albeit an ill prepared Tyson, as being akin in terms of occasion as Coco the Clown visiting your suburb in Brisbane isn't very fair I would humbly suggest! It was one of the biggest shocks in boxing history lest you need those of us around back than to remind you!

What does, "back than," mean?

raylawpc wrote:

Fourstarzzzz wrote:Cus, Jim were the Anchors for Tyson. I beleive they kept him on the path. I do not believe he would have lost to douglas or went to jail if he had these two looking over his shoulder. The years in jail sealed his fate as he would never be the same.

Cus died in 1985 - four years before Tyson's troubles surfaced. How exactly did Cus serve as an anchor for him? It's true that Cus guided him through his amateur career, and started him out in the pros. But it was Jim Jacobs who guided him to the championship and through his glory years. Jim Jacobs does not get enough creditor for making Tyson a champion. Cus seems to get all the credit, and Jacobs is ignored. I do believe that if Jim Jacobs hadn't died, Tyson would not have lost to Buster Douglas and I believe we would be talking about Tyson in the same breath as the greats of the past like Dempsey, Louis, Marciano and Ali.

You are absolutely right Ray, people dont mention Jim Jacobs enough but while Jim replaced Cus as a father figure outside the ring, it was Kevin Rooney who replaced Cus as the trainer and anchor in the ring.So although Cus died in 1985 I would say his anchor was still in place until 1988 and the time of the Spinks fight when of course Jacobs had just passed away and of course just after that fight rooney was fired as Robin Givens, Ruth Roper and Don King and his boys took over Tysons life.

There are also all kinds of stories about Tyson's behaviour from way before the Douglas fight. Mike was off the rails all along. The issue is that nothing papers over the cracks in your life better than winning and success. As soon as you lose the whole pantomime is exposed.

Tyson was a top fighter who came unstuck...like 1000s of other boxers down the years.

I also subscribe to the view that Douglas would also have beaten a fit and focused Tyson. However, based on the assumption that Tyson beats Douglas, I think he would go on to lose to Holyfield in 1991, likely by late stoppage or on points. Tyson-Bowe is an interesting match-up, but I think the best version of Tyson knocks Bowe out, largely due to Bowe's poor defense. I can't see Lewis taking on Tyson before 1996, and at that point in time I think he stops Tyson late, as Tyson would surely have started to fade - even with Cus and Rooney on his side.

Diamond WEAPON wrote:James "The Grim Reaper" Roeper and "Malevolent" Marvin Shabazz

tyson would have made more money if he had fought "Irish" Terry Konklin. he's gonna kiss the donkey.

mugabi wrote:

Diamond WEAPON wrote:Thing about Prime Tyson is he was like an updated Jack Dempsey. Back before Dempsey's heydey fighters, especially HWs had gotten used to fighting a fairly torrid pace over an uncountable number of rounds, often making for endurance chess matches come to life. Dempsey however, fought like a pitbull that just got unleashed and set about trying to tear his opponent's head off. Tyson was like another similar shock to the HW system because in the 80's even the HWs had generally gotten used to trying to be more skill-oriented boxers looking to score points rather than inflict pain. But then Tyson arrived with the seeming intent to want to ice somebody right there in front of the world.

Prime Tyson was an absolute beast in the early rounds and if you got clipped there you'd be in a world of trouble. I think Tyson would've savaged a number of ATGs before they would even know what was going on.

I think the most interesting matchups for Prime Tyson would've included Prime versions of Dempsey, Bowe, Holyfield, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Lewis, and Foreman. Tyson mostly ate up guys who tried to rely overly on pure boxing skill and trickiness. He had his biggest problems with massive guys who leaned on him or otherwise were able to match muscle with him on the inside. All of those mentioned would've given Tyson an absolute war and if they survived the early onslaught would've likely taken him out late. Mike wound up being a "live by the gun" type of fighter who either scored the KO or got KO'd himself.

I would probably slightly disagree, in retrospect its easy to say big guys with muscle who leaned on him got the job done against Tyson. Sure at the end of his career Tyson went that way against Lewis. But one must remember he also went that way against Williams and Mcbride so I really dont rate Lewis's victory over Tyson as meaning anything other than a win over a totally shot and worn out fighter sick of fighting.

In his prime it was tricky boxers like Tillis, Green , Tucker and even Ribalta who stretched Tyson the most, and arguably even they lost almost every round with the exception of Tillis and perhaps Thomas. Pinklon Thomas had hs moments but by the same token Thomas ended up half dead and so did other boxers Biggs and Tubbs. I really think the prime Tyson was not as is widely put out just an early round threat he was dangerous for 12 rounds. Watch the Bonecrusher, Tillis and Ribalta fights Tyson was fighting just as hard in the last round as the first.

Well the ones who did go 12 or close to it with Mike were the ones who largely were wrestling with himon the inside in order to survive his assaults because Tyson was significantly shorther than most, hence why I think he'd have a lot of trouble with guys who hold a lot and with somewhat solid enough chins to stay upright if he had managed to land a bit. Vitali Klitschko for instance I believe would've given Tyson a bunch of problems because of that before winding up with some horrendous gash or injury TKO. Wlad would've been killed.

Ezzard wrote:There are also all kinds of stories about Tyson's behaviour from way before the Douglas fight. Mike was off the rails all along. The issue is that nothing papers over the cracks in your life better than winning and success. As soon as you lose the whole pantomime is exposed.

Tyson was a top fighter who came unstuck...like 1000s of other boxers down the years.

Bingo.

Tons of fighters have had waves of personal and legal troubles affecting their lives, especially once they become famous, but Tyson is the only one where people play pop psychologist and over-analyse things to death. Tyson was never going to be a very long-reigning champion, partially due to his mental makeup and partially due to his fighting style, which does not have a long shelf live. The D'Amato style only works with young fighters b/c you need that extra 'snap' of aggression and quickness to execute it well. Once they mellow out and age it becomes a style which is extremely vulnerable to straight punches and counter-punching.

dempseyfire wrote:Tyson loses to Douglas with Cus alive or not.

Way too many Tyson fans conjure up Cus D'Amato like some magical fairy who via his magic sprinkle dust made Tyson a forever disciplined, sane individual who would never self-destruct. And even that said, Douglas boxed a perfect fight vs Tyson and styles-wise OWNED him that night, regardless of Tyson's personal issues.

I agree with you, many boxers, not just Tyson had their beginning trainer die, very few boxers had their first trainer from beginning to the end. Tyson is my favorite boxer of all time, I do not think Cus dying affected Tyson's peformance. What affected his performance is when he fired Kevin Rooney as his trainer.