BoxRec

Goodnight, Irene wrote:If that's enough to make you a near-great, open the floodgates.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Shavers is a near-nothing. They don't come more over-rated (or limited) than The Acorn.

hhaehre wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Why wouldn't Holmes think he was the best ever? That is the mentality of a great fighter. Tyson thought he was too, except Mike always knew that Evander was his daddy.

The only fighter I have ever heard Holmes speak of with respect is Larry Holmes. The guy is an asshole, pure and simple.

jrc26 wrote:

mugabi wrote:c'mon granberry if you want to be controversial you have to say things I dont agree with.

Larry Holmes is one of the most overrated heavyweights of all time and a classless jerk by the same token.

Not wishing to reopen some peoples old wounds but what a prime George Foreman would have done to Holmes :(

Ive always felt the Tyson loss told us a lot more about Holmes than some think. Especially since Holmes constantly likes to use his victory over a parkinsons and drug ravaged Ali as proof he always would have beaten Ali.

Holmes is a loud mouth with no dignity the way he is always hollering and acting vulgar

Overrated by who exactly? In order to be overrated you actually have to be talked about as one of the best? Overrated by who exactly?
Mugabi's Answer: Overrated by himself for one thing and he sure gets more coverage than a 10,000 internet boxing forum posters..Holmes doesnt seem to do anything else these days other than spend all his time sitting in his real estate HQ putting Ali and other HW champions down with insults on and on and on. It's rather desperate and its no coincidence that given his bitter boring personality the station of World Heavyweight boxing champion was so demeaned during Holmes reign. Wheras in the days of Ali, Marciano, Louis and Dempsey and Tunney it was the noblest ranking in sport as well as the richest prize.
You can be a top 6-8 HW and talk and act like you were number 1 with bitterness everytime a reporter shoves a microphone in your face, that constitutes being overrated since you dont hear Foreman, Ali, Frazier, Lewis or Tyson or Holyfield or Bowe or other champions ever shouting their mouths off like this and getting so much press doing it and having so many buddies in the formal boxing press in the pre internet era saying you were a top 4 guy (note Harry Mullan did it and Hugh McIllvanny at one point did it too) Tyson is mentioned over and over and over by people when talking about great heavyweights, so if you want to argue about him being overrated then you could, although I would disagree. Larry is rarely mentioned in the same sentence as Louis, Ali, Tyson, and the others. Larry is in fact underrated because he is hardly ever mentioned. Yeah except by himself again and again

If it is so easy for a guy to win 47 straight fights can you please explain to me only a couple of guys have ever done it? No one said it was easy where did I say that? I simply said its deplorable the way he talks of himself as number 1 and puts other HW champions down. BTW Nikolai Valuev also had a similar record, make of that what you want since your quoting records as your sole evidence, I'm not comparing Valuev to Holmes but since you made a big deal of the record thing i thought i would quote that make of it what you want but Im not comparing Larry to Valuev Larry cleaned out the entire division. Cleaned it out. What exactly should he have done? He didn't clean out the division he didnt fight Pinklon Thomas, Gerrie Coetzee or Mike Dokes back when those guys were at their best and fellow "champs".Also the competition Holmes fought in title fights people like Cobb,Frank, a unready Marvis Frazer to name a few were pretty weak.Weaker than the guys a Joe Frazier or Ali, heck even a Lewis or Holyfield faced in title fights to quote a few examples. Larry never unified which is part of his legacy since Ali, Foreman, Frazier and others would not allow themselves to be an alphabet titlist.


I can go on and on naming all-time greats who had an off night and lost. Yes Im sure you could but what is the relevence? none of them go around trashing other fellow champions and claiming to be number 1 all the time like Holmes does Holmes made it 47 straight fights without having that night. You can argue he was given a good score card here or there, but he did not obviously lose any of those fights.

This is literally the most ridiculous claim I have read in this forum since...well...yesterday when some idiot claimed Ali lost 17 fights
well I have to confess i really think you havent seen the wood for the trees and really dont understand what exactly is your point, that Holmes isnt overrated as no one thinks he is top 5 material except himself my point on the other hand which you seem to have missed, is very clear, Larry Holmes is abitter man who goes around saying he is the best HW ever and disparaging his predeccesors like Ali and Marciano.


And while I am at it, please quote Holmes when he "uses his victory over a parkinsons and drug ravaged Ali as proof he always would have beaten Ali." Please...


Easy go and google Larry Holmes interview and you will find plenty of examples please actually research something before you throw a hissy fit

He has never said anything of the sort. What was that thing about the most ridiculous claim you have ever read. Try reading your own claims that Holmes is some latter day Gene Tunney all dignity and grace. Holmes said in front of Rocky Marciano's family that the Rock couldnt hold his jockstrap. Utterly devoid of class.Rocky was dead and unable to defend himself. In fact he has been nothing but humble about having to beat up his friend in that state. But please prove me wrong with a link showing any such quote where he claims that victory means he would have beat Ali at his bestAgain google Larry Holmes he has been saying it for 30 years, go on youtube but dont act like the man who just found out we landed on the moon in 1969 . You can't because he has never said it. He has said he would beat Ali because they were sparring partners for many years and he knew how to beat him. Amazing made up fact on your part though.

dempseyfire wrote:Holmes beat a great fighter (Norton), a near-great (Shavers) and several other very good heavyweights in Witherspoon, Cooney, Smith, Berbick etc.

Overall his competition wasn't great, and I disagree with Rob in that the early 80s were some great HW era (an interesting era with depth that far surpasses what he have now, but more full of guys with good athleticism as opposed to real skills), but Holmes fought the best available given the politics of the period, and his consistency goes a long way.

mugabi wrote:

jrc26 wrote:

mugabi wrote:c'mon granberry if you want to be controversial you have to say things I dont agree with.

Larry Holmes is one of the most overrated heavyweights of all time and a classless jerk by the same token.

Not wishing to reopen some peoples old wounds but what a prime George Foreman would have done to Holmes :(

Ive always felt the Tyson loss told us a lot more about Holmes than some think. Especially since Holmes constantly likes to use his victory over a parkinsons and drug ravaged Ali as proof he always would have beaten Ali.

Holmes is a loud mouth with no dignity the way he is always hollering and acting vulgar

Overrated by who exactly? In order to be overrated you actually have to be talked about as one of the best? Overrated by who exactly?
Mugabi's Answer: Overrated by himself for one thing and he sure gets more coverage than a 10,000 internet boxing forum posters..Holmes doesnt seem to do anything else these days other than spend all his time sitting in his real estate HQ putting Ali and other HW champions down with insults on and on and on. It's rather desperate and its no coincidence that given his bitter boring personality the station of World Heavyweight boxing champion was so demeaned during Holmes reign. Wheras in the days of Ali, Marciano, Louis and Dempsey and Tunney it was the noblest ranking in sport as well as the richest prize.
You can be a top 6-8 HW and talk and act like you were number 1 with bitterness everytime a reporter shoves a microphone in your face, that constitutes being overrated since you dont hear Foreman, Ali, Frazier, Lewis or Tyson or Holyfield or Bowe or other champions ever shouting their mouths off like this and getting so much press doing it and having so many buddies in the formal boxing press in the pre internet era saying you were a top 4 guy (note Harry Mullan did it and Hugh McIllvanny at one point did it too) Tyson is mentioned over and over and over by people when talking about great heavyweights, so if you want to argue about him being overrated then you could, although I would disagree. Larry is rarely mentioned in the same sentence as Louis, Ali, Tyson, and the others. Larry is in fact underrated because he is hardly ever mentioned. Yeah except by himself again and again

If it is so easy for a guy to win 47 straight fights can you please explain to me only a couple of guys have ever done it? No one said it was easy where did I say that? I simply said its deplorable the way he talks of himself as number 1 and puts other HW champions down. BTW Nikolai Valuev also had a similar record, make of that what you want since your quoting records as your sole evidence, I'm not comparing Valuev to Holmes but since you made a big deal of the record thing i thought i would quote that make of it what you want but Im not comparing Larry to Valuev Larry cleaned out the entire division. Cleaned it out. What exactly should he have done? He didn't clean out the division he didnt fight Pinklon Thomas, Gerrie Coetzee or Mike Dokes back when those guys were at their best and fellow "champs".Also the competition Holmes fought in title fights people like Cobb,Frank, a unready Marvis Frazer to name a few were pretty weak.Weaker than the guys a Joe Frazier or Ali, heck even a Lewis or Holyfield faced in title fights to quote a few examples. Larry never unified which is part of his legacy since Ali, Foreman, Frazier and others would not allow themselves to be an alphabet titlist.


I can go on and on naming all-time greats who had an off night and lost. Yes Im sure you could but what is the relevence? none of them go around trashing other fellow champions and claiming to be number 1 all the time like Holmes does Holmes made it 47 straight fights without having that night. You can argue he was given a good score card here or there, but he did not obviously lose any of those fights.

This is literally the most ridiculous claim I have read in this forum since...well...yesterday when some idiot claimed Ali lost 17 fights
well I have to confess i really think you havent seen the wood for the trees and really dont understand what exactly is your point, that Holmes isnt overrated as no one thinks he is top 5 material except himself my point on the other hand which you seem to have missed, is very clear, Larry Holmes is abitter man who goes around saying he is the best HW ever and disparaging his predeccesors like Ali and Marciano.


And while I am at it, please quote Holmes when he "uses his victory over a parkinsons and drug ravaged Ali as proof he always would have beaten Ali." Please...


Easy go and google Larry Holmes interview and you will find plenty of examples please actually research something before you throw a hissy fit

He has never said anything of the sort. What was that thing about the most ridiculous claim you have ever read. Try reading your own claims that Holmes is some latter day Gene Tunney all dignity and grace. Holmes said in front of Rocky Marciano's family that the Rock couldnt hold his jockstrap. Utterly devoid of class.Rocky was dead and unable to defend himself. In fact he has been nothing but humble about having to beat up his friend in that state. But please prove me wrong with a link showing any such quote where he claims that victory means he would have beat Ali at his bestAgain google Larry Holmes he has been saying it for 30 years, go on youtube but dont act like the man who just found out we landed on the moon in 1969 . You can't because he has never said it. He has said he would beat Ali because they were sparring partners for many years and he knew how to beat him. Amazing made up fact on your part though.

My replies are in bold above.

HomicideHenry wrote:Witherspoon, Berbick, I think are under-rated when it comes to Holmes

However, I think, that Cooney was the best of the bunch; undoubtedly the best left hook of the 80's among the HW's

HomicideHenry wrote:Tyson's power was uncanny, yes, but his power came more from his blinding speed and defense [not to mention combinations], catching most guys off guard. I think as far as physical strength goes, Cooney had an edge, maybe not a big one, but an edge nonetheless. One punch power, I think is all Cooney. Tyson wasnt too far behind.

HomicideHenry wrote:aint taking much away from tyson; there are deep parallels between tyson and cooney, though imho. Both men's level of opposition is in question. Cooney's best opponents were old, Tyson's best opponents in his prime were limited and an average bunch. Both defeated their opponents with amazing finishes, but both lacked the artillary when they went against the elite.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Pretty depressing when your best wins include names like Cooney & Shavers

Goodnight, Irene wrote:They were dangerous, because they had such tremendous power (if largely one-handed, in both cases).

However, they were extremely limited fellas, the pair of 'em, & Shavers especially is an over-rated figure in Boxing (though he may have been Cooney's better). I run the comb over these three, Holmes, Shavers & Cooney, & I will say this literally --- I cannot find a single facet of the sport in which those two guys had an edge against Holmes outside of hitting power. That's a pretty stacked deck, any way you slice it.

Further, it's not as if these guys were quite capable or advanced in a lot of ways, but just conceded to Holmes' greatness (as would be the case with the recent Mayweather-Marquez fight). No, Sir --- there were some areas to both men which were downright terrible, in world-class terms.