BoxRec

Collins2000 wrote:

bobbyd wrote:

granberry wrote: Caveman Lee flattened Geraldo in one round

during the same time period that Hagler and Leonard struggled to decision wins over the very same Geraldo.

Yup.Thanks.I forgot to mention about That Awesome Caveman pulling off the trick as well against Mr.Geraldo.

I seriously dont think that Hagler had the adaptability to deal with such a versatile warrior that Monzon was.Just too many variables in Monzon's Offensive And Defensive arsenal.

I continue to feel that Hearns would've won a rematch with Hagler as well.
8)

Yeah, the time they did fight left some doubt as to who was the better man at 160 that night didn't it?

Ahhhmmm....I Guess you were apparently unaware that Hearns broke his right hand in the 1st round.

granberry wrote:

Elton John wrote:I believe Tommy was the favorite to beat marvin following the Duran fight. said Tommy was too fast for him and punched too hard, that Marvin would never get a shot off. For sure Tommy was much faster than Monzon and a bit taller so I'm going to pick Marvin in this one.

I think Marvin would go after him and not let him box at a convenient pace as he let Duran do. I dont think Monzon could withstand Marvin's incredible power or southpaw jab. This is Marvin's fight all the way with the possible exception of the first two rounds. Similar to the first Obel fight where Marvin is adjusting to Obel's height and sizing him up at long range, Marvin then seeks to test his chin sometme around the 4th and strikes paydirt.

Timing one of Monzon's lazy left jabs, marvin comes over the top with a demonic right hook, and a violent torque of Monzon's head. For the first time in Monzon's career, he is a struck a lethal blow from which he cannot recover. Monzon cannot clear his head in time. Marvin sensing his opportunity, goes after his prey like a doberman after raw meat, attacking with unbridled ferocity and without mercy.

Striking at full force, lefts and rights rain down upon Monzon's unprotected head until his lifeless form collapses (similar to the conclusion of Pryor-Arguello)

The postfight commentary: "Monzon was brave in there. TOO brave for his own good" and "The ref should have definitely jumped in to save Carlos from those last few blows"

Parting from Larry Merchant: "Tonight we saw the best in boxing and the worst. We can also say we saw the best in Marvin seems to come out when he lets the animal instinct take over "

Marvin Hagler: "Tonight you saw the best in Marvelous Marvin". I knew I had him with that punch because when I landed it it felt beautiful on my hand then I just started putting the combinations together. I felt as though the ref should have stepped in a little before.

Now give your your fairy tale version of a fight between Hagler

and a fat, overweight, out of shape lightweight Roberto Duran.

LOL

Pardon Ole Elton....In his Delusional mind he himself could Beat the Crap Outta Vlad Klitschko.

granberry wrote:

Elton John wrote:I believe Tommy was the favorite to beat marvin following the Duran fight. said Tommy was too fast for him and punched too hard, that Marvin would never get a shot off. For sure Tommy was much faster than Monzon and a bit taller so I'm going to pick Marvin in this one.

I think Marvin would go after him and not let him box at a convenient pace as he let Duran do. I dont think Monzon could withstand Marvin's incredible power or southpaw jab. This is Marvin's fight all the way with the possible exception of the first two rounds. Similar to the first Obel fight where Marvin is adjusting to Obel's height and sizing him up at long range, Marvin then seeks to test his chin sometme around the 4th and strikes paydirt.

Timing one of Monzon's lazy left jabs, marvin comes over the top with a demonic right hook, and a violent torque of Monzon's head. For the first time in Monzon's career, he is a struck a lethal blow from which he cannot recover. Monzon cannot clear his head in time. Marvin sensing his opportunity, goes after his prey like a doberman after raw meat, attacking with unbridled ferocity and without mercy.

Striking at full force, lefts and rights rain down upon Monzon's unprotected head until his lifeless form collapses (similar to the conclusion of Pryor-Arguello)

The postfight commentary: "Monzon was brave in there. TOO brave for his own good" and "The ref should have definitely jumped in to save Carlos from those last few blows"

Parting from Larry Merchant: "Tonight we saw the best in boxing and the worst. We can also say we saw the best in Marvin seems to come out when he lets the animal instinct take over "

Marvin Hagler: "Tonight you saw the best in Marvelous Marvin". I knew I had him with that punch because when I landed it it felt beautiful on my hand then I just started putting the combinations together. I felt as though the ref should have stepped in a little before.

Now give your your fairy tale version of a fight between Hagler

and a fat, overweight, out of shape lightweight Roberto Duran.

LOL

You saw the real Hagler when he faced the best; a Tony Sibson, or Hamsho or Hearns, not the passive laid back Hagler from the Duran fight. Hagler can obviously perform at various levels and can elevate his performance to unbelievable degrees to take out his man almost immediately.

It may seem unbelievable that Hagler would stop the great Monzon but more often than not, when you're facing a man as dangerous as Hagler, the results are going to end up in a spectacular knockout.

Look at the results of Foreman-Frazier, Douglas - Tyson, Hearns-Duran, or Pryor- Arguello where the thought of any of these greats meeting with a devestating defeat was thought to be unthinkable.

To me the most shocking was Hearns-Duran, even harder to swallow than Pryor-Arguello but sometimes the aggressor is so fired up and well prepared, that he cannot be thwarted. And hagler has the perfect style to stomp the life from Monzon.

hagler being the southpaw supreme that he was, had a 70% connect rate in his prime! I see marvin working on countering the lazy left jab of Monzon. In a fight with marvin, this flaw would prove to be fatal.

It's just unfathomable to me that Monzon would be able to keep off the attack of Hagler for 15. Hagler would take it to him and score 1-2's to the ribs the way marciano did to drop his man's guard. Realistically, this is what would happen and with Hagler, it takes surprisingly little time to unravel the wiring of his opponent's legs. And what's Monzon without his legs to keep him out of harm's way?

This is much more difficult that the Valdez fight because Hagler has so many tools. Despite what some here are saying, Marvin did not have problems with taller opponents because he was the master of adapting to the opponent. With marvin's impeccable timing, airtight defense, mobility, I ask myself how Monzon can win?

Monzon has never coped with anyone like Hagler in his life and would simply not be up to it this time. IMO hagler could concievably outbox him if he wanted to. But that's not Hagler's way. Marvin would want to ensure that this would never go to the judges and concentrate on breaking him down.

bobbyd wrote:

granberry wrote:

Elton John wrote:I believe Tommy was the favorite to beat marvin following the Duran fight. said Tommy was too fast for him and punched too hard, that Marvin would never get a shot off. For sure Tommy was much faster than Monzon and a bit taller so I'm going to pick Marvin in this one.

I think Marvin would go after him and not let him box at a convenient pace as he let Duran do. I dont think Monzon could withstand Marvin's incredible power or southpaw jab. This is Marvin's fight all the way with the possible exception of the first two rounds. Similar to the first Obel fight where Marvin is adjusting to Obel's height and sizing him up at long range, Marvin then seeks to test his chin sometme around the 4th and strikes paydirt.

Timing one of Monzon's lazy left jabs, marvin comes over the top with a demonic right hook, and a violent torque of Monzon's head. For the first time in Monzon's career, he is a struck a lethal blow from which he cannot recover. Monzon cannot clear his head in time. Marvin sensing his opportunity, goes after his prey like a doberman after raw meat, attacking with unbridled ferocity and without mercy.

Striking at full force, lefts and rights rain down upon Monzon's unprotected head until his lifeless form collapses (similar to the conclusion of Pryor-Arguello)

The postfight commentary: "Monzon was brave in there. TOO brave for his own good" and "The ref should have definitely jumped in to save Carlos from those last few blows"

Parting from Larry Merchant: "Tonight we saw the best in boxing and the worst. We can also say we saw the best in Marvin seems to come out when he lets the animal instinct take over "

Marvin Hagler: "Tonight you saw the best in Marvelous Marvin". I knew I had him with that punch because when I landed it it felt beautiful on my hand then I just started putting the combinations together. I felt as though the ref should have stepped in a little before.

Now give your your fairy tale version of a fight between Hagler

and a fat, overweight, out of shape lightweight Roberto Duran.

LOL

Pardon Ole Elton....In his Delusional mind he himself could Beat the Crap Outta Vlad Klitschko.

Tell that to Aaron Pryor just before they told him he had no chance of knocking out Arguello.

In the REAL world Hagler struggled with fighters smaller than he was in his most important fights.

Hagler never fought Monzon, except in your fairy tale mind.

But in the real world he sure had to work hard to eke out a win over fat, out of shape lightweight Duran.

Hagler disgraced the entire history of the middleweight division with his struggle with fat old Duran.

bobbyd wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:

bobbyd wrote: Yup.Thanks.I forgot to mention about That Awesome Caveman pulling off the trick as well against Mr.Geraldo.

I seriously dont think that Hagler had the adaptability to deal with such a versatile warrior that Monzon was.Just too many variables in Monzon's Offensive And Defensive arsenal.

I continue to feel that Hearns would've won a rematch with Hagler as well.
8)

Yeah, the time they did fight left some doubt as to who was the better man at 160 that night didn't it?

Ahhhmmm....I Guess you were apparently unaware that Hearns broke his right hand in the 1st round.

Ah, the broken hand excuse...

Actually that was the 2nd excuse wasn't it? Steward first claimed someone had given Tommy a leg massage just prior to the fight and that was why they turned to jelly so quickly. The broken hand only came up after that excuse didn't fly.

granberry wrote:In the REAL world Hagler struggled with fighters smaller than he was in his most important fights.

Hagler never fought Monzon, except in your fairy tale mind.

But in the real world he sure had to work hard to eke out a win over fat, out of shape lightweight Duran.

Hagler disgraced the entire history of the middleweight division with his struggle with fat old Duran.

I'm looking at this from a stylistic standpoint. Now if Hagler had floundered in the Hearns fight, I would go along with you and admit to him being a choker in big fights but in fact, that was his most bombastic, most explosive and dramtic performance that the best of fighters could only dream of.

Speaking of the Duran fight, I wouldnt call it disgaraceful but it fell short of expectations. Moreover, I dont feel Marvin was working hard at all but rather that he was content to strictly box him as though it were a glorified sparring match.

Collins2000 wrote:

bobbyd wrote:

Collins2000 wrote:
Yeah, the time they did fight left some doubt as to who was the better man at 160 that night didn't it?

Ahhhmmm....I Guess you were apparently unaware that Hearns broke his right hand in the 1st round.

Ah, the broken hand excuse...

Actually that was the 2nd excuse wasn't it? Steward first claimed someone had given Tommy a leg massage just prior to the fight and that was why they turned to jelly so quickly. The broken hand only came up after that excuse didn't fly.

Tommy Hearns was always full of excuses such as the time he pulled out of the original date for the Hagler fight. Said his pinky wasn't at 100%

granberry wrote:In the REAL world Hagler struggled with fighters smaller than he was in his most important fights.

Hagler never fought Monzon, except in your fairy tale mind.

But in the real world he sure had to work hard to eke out a win over fat, out of shape lightweight Duran.

Hagler disgraced the entire history of the middleweight division with his struggle with fat old Duran.

you seem to be negatively biased against hagler based on one fight and one against a legend who could keep up with the brawlers/sluggers despite his age (duran)
im sure you're fond of a fighter who had a few unspectacular nights
come on, have you even been in the ring before? its not like a damn game or sumthin ITS A FIGHT you cant always do what youre expected to

I"ve never known granberry to change his position on a subject. He's a no nonsense man of granite.

nobudius wrote:I know Monzon was listed at 6'0" or so, but does anybody know his exact measurements? For instance, his reach? The only time I've seen Monzon & Hagler next to each other, albeit briefly, was in Marvin's bout against Roldan. He was all limbs, & it showed the differences in height between the two.

The only other fighter I know that combined Monzon's kind of build with strength is Sandy Saddler. Tooth picks that had brute strength.

Carlos Monzon stood 5'11-1/2", and had a 77 inch reach. I found this information when I was trying to do a size comparison with SRR some months ago.

I give Hagler the advantages in power and speed. he had a little more granite in his chin too (but negligible really in this match up). I can only see Carlos losing to a speed demon 'skater' type who fights him once and never again.

IMO Monzon beats anyone at 160 eventually because like Salvador Sanchez he was always learning in a fight. Now I know Marvin could too but Carlos was the cleverer of the two. It would be close though. 2 great champions.

Ezzard wrote:I give Hagler the advantages in power and speed. he had a little more granite in his chin too (but negligible really in this match up). I can only see Carlos losing to a speed demon 'skater' type who fights him once and never again.

IMO Monzon beats anyone at 160 eventually because like Salvador Sanchez he was always learning in a fight. Now I know Marvin could too but Carlos was the cleverer of the two. It would be close though. 2 great champions.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Ezzard wrote:I give Hagler the advantages in power and speed. he had a little more granite in his chin too (but negligible really in this match up). I can only see Carlos losing to a speed demon 'skater' type who fights him once and never again.

IMO Monzon beats anyone at 160 eventually because like Salvador Sanchez he was always learning in a fight. Now I know Marvin could too but Carlos was the cleverer of the two. It would be close though. 2 great champions.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. What Sugar Ray could sneak out the back door , Monzon could walk right in the front door and take.

Monzon alos always comes across as a very intimidating man.

GI, BoxBuzz, Ezzard & Gran all in agreement...it's like some kind of flying wedge. Unstoppable

Goodnight, Irene wrote:GI, BoxBuzz, Ezzard & Gran all in agreement...it's like some kind of flying wedge. Unstoppable

These are the good times!

good times indeed only dont scroll back too far, buzz, as theres a post about the pryor/arguello 1 fight. and we know you are "the granberry of pryor"

They were probably the top 2 middleweights of all time. Monzon should be rated higher because he was the more consistent of the two.

While close to his prime but before he was the champion, Hagler did have rather lackluster performances against Geraldo and Brisco and against Antuofermo the first time. And of course he seemed to be sleep walking for awhile against Duran. If he fought like that against Monzon he would lose convincingly.

However, if Hagler fought like he usually did, he would give Monzon a very tough fight that could probably go either way. It's almost a given that it would go the distance.

Ambling Alp wrote:They were probably the top 2 middleweights of all time.

Classic internet boxing site post.

Yep, Harry Greb, Stanley Ketchel, Tommy Ryan, Mickey Walker, Tony Zale, Ray Robinson, etc etc etc

wouldn't have had a chance against either of them.

LOL

Ambling Alp wrote:They were probably the top 2 middleweights of all time.

Except for perhaps Greb, Ketchel, Fitzsimmons, Robinson, Walker, etc. They were certainly two of the best MWs of all time, but the fact that their careers are more recent usually places them higher in most lists than some of the earlier greats, who may have actually been better than either of them.

First of all, I did use the word probably.

I have Greb at #3 and you certainly could make a case for him being #2 or even #1.
I have Robinson #4, Walker #5, Ketchel #10, all ahead of Bernard Hopkins who of course was the middleweight champion until recently.

When I rate someone, I weigh all of the evidence that I know of.
I'm not one of those of people who think the world started on the day I was born.

I do have Pep and Saddler as my top 2 featherweights. I also have Johnny Kilbane, Abe Attell,Terry McGovern in my top 10.

Benny Leonard,Joe Gans,Henry Armstrong, and Barney Ross are all in my Top 5 lightweights.

I think Ray Robinson is the #1 welterweight, and Armstrong, Ross,and Gavilan are Top 5.

I just think in this particular case, the two best middleweights happened to have fought more recently.

There are things that should be held against Hagler (and to a lesser extent Monzon) but overall I think their careers were the best.

Robinson, Walker,Ketchel and others were great; however you can also find things that should be held against them.

I got Monzon as the greatest middleweight ever.

Then Robinson, Hagler, Greb and Ketchel in that particular order. Hopkins is #6 at middleweight in my view. But I cannot see him beat Hagler, Monzon nor Robinson in their primes.

I think Monzon had the style to beat Hagler.Monzon won the title at 29 or so,a fact that is often overlooked in that he had most of his big fights in his mid to late 30's,meaning he might actually have been a little less than prime yet still able to beat guys like Griffith,Briscoe,and Valdez.Hagler was great but I believe Monzon was greater and beat a better calibre of middleweights.

So what if Monzon won his title at 29? That doesnt prove anything other than longevity. Even Hopkins surpassed the great Monzon in this area. He still lost to Roy Jones though.

Does Monzon really have the style to beat Hagler, and if so then why?

From what I've seen, Monzon was a little slow on the slow side. And you can't win an argument the way some here have done attempting to defince Hagler's abilities by labelling him a plodder, stiff, mechanical or a choker etc. Ali was a plodder too toward the end of his career as I remember him.

Just name me one contender that Monzon beat that was a top flight southpaw and maybe i will go along with the possiblity that monzon had the style to beat him.