BoxRec

DavidPayne wrote:

Carlos-Wigan wrote:

DavidPayne wrote: True Carlos but David Hatye made millions fighting for one aspect of the title, probably as much as Bruno made for A Tyson fight....clever marketing and a good PPV contract.

You are absolutley right Dave - in fact Bruno didn't make all that much in regards purse money and was very vocal about it at times (especially regarding the Tyson fights and his fight with Joe Bugner) but the real money came in his out of the ring activities which built him a huge fanbase. Haye has already outstripped Bruno in world title wins but I will wait for the day I see Haye advertising HP sauce or being a presenter on a BBC chat show or just generally having the general exposure Bruno got. (and made some proper money out of)

But you miss my point - I think you're wrong. You're over-stating the earning potential of the recognition you're describing. Now if Bruno had been the front man for Calvin Klein or Hugo Boss or Ferrari or Yahoo....fine....but HP sauce isn't going to cut it.

You're making McGuigan and Bruno sound like Brand Beckham. Its bollacks. They've earned a good few quid out of their ring-persona's but most McGuigan's earning remain entrenched in boxing. Bruno had a huge fan-base - evidenced by his record breaking debut on PPV years ago. Can't argue. Haye, Calzaghe and Hatton learned from the mistakes of those guys, it may have led them away from the downtrodden path of the ex-pug willing to doff his cap for a torn fiver and grateful for the attention but it earned the money doing what he did best - fighting - and all three have far outstripped their predeccessors for earning potential beyond boxing, I'd venture Calzaghe earned more from 10 weeks on Strictly than Bruno did for years of HP adverts. And that was a small pot.

I don't think you're right, have you any idea how well mainstream advertising pays? It paid even more back then too, because there were fewer channels and therefore far more views per impression. N

Carlos-Wigan wrote:

DavidPayne wrote: Well obviously we have no evidence that McGuigan could or wuld have been just as big as he proved on terrestrial, however, we can say that a guy with a similar style, with a similarly enthused support has made many, many millions fighting exclusively on satellite television, sold more tickets to more shows than McGuigan and will stay in the public consciousness just as long as McGuigan. Hatton.

Remember without the modern phenomenon of celebrity driven vehicles ike Strictly, Celeb BB, Hells Kitchen etc....a lot of these guys would just be washed up pugs wheeled out for Sports Personality Awards and Brut adverts trying to make a living racing cars down mountain sides. It is the same plethora of channels which maintain the demand for such a wide church of formerly significant people as well as offering choice to those previously virtually compelled to watch boxing by a lack of alternate programming. So whist it marginalises Boxing, without it we wouldn't have seen McGuigan in the spotlight without the tedious requirement to fill the screens with once important figures in compromising positions.

Equaly, Calzaghe won Sports Personality of the Year - A JOE BLOGGS AWARD despite being a satellite fighter who had fought nobody the greater public would recognise after 1997. The reach of Sky Sports grows by the day and whilst it may always be explicitly for specific, niche fans and not the domain of houswives and casual supporters it is increasingly becoming as established among the target market as any 10pm slot on ITV.

Does it really matter if the Barbara's, Enid's and Julian's don't know who the key boxers are, as along as there is sufficient demand to keep boxing ticking amoong its own and youngsters are drawn to the sport in the gyms?

Would boxing be half as much fun to follow if every clown in the canteen knew every fighter like us sad saps do?

Now you have seemed to have missed the point Dave, Hatton has fought in 25 world title fights to Barry McGuigans 4, one has more of an effect on the public than the other but you wouldn't think it was the guy who retired over 20 years ago. You would think it was the guy who fought in Vegas numerous times - but you don't really see Hatton do you? And you certainly didn't when he was fighting because outside sports fans and the Mancunian public - no-one knew nor cared about him because he was tucked away on PPV! Calazghe has fought in 22 world title fights and he has just managed to burst into the public conciousness towards the end of his career by winning the sports personality of the year (against a very crap field) but do you see Calazghe? Not really. So, imagine you aren't a Hatton or Calazghe and you are just a bog standard 'world' champion wanting to make some money. How do you do that when no-one can see you? There was once upon a time a decent British champion could make money from out of the ring apperances and today it just isn't the same. I would rather that every Tom, Dick and Harry had access to boxing because thats how our sport stays alive.

You don't see Calzaghe? he was on BBC every Saturday and Sunday night for three months last year. I agree, British champions cannot make a living doing supermarket openings anymore. But the world has changed, its the way it is. But I think the argument falls down when you seek to compare McGuigan, Bruno with Hatton and Haye their natural successors as the fighters most recognisable by British fight fans. Now whilst I take your point about Hatton's numerous 'world-title' fights, I think you're employing double standards - if were adopting the pursit criteria for a world-title fight, then you and I both know Hatton had nothing like that many title fights. And of course, it isn't Hatton's fault McGuigan lost through bad management and heat to Stevie Cruz. Hatton bounced from his defeat to Mayweather to once again scale the mountain and win world-title fights. During which time he has appeared on every conceivable television format possible. And mcGigan and Bruno are your best examples - how many people would recognise Ken Buchanan or Alan Minter if they walked down the road and how many endorsements and contracts have they had since bing two of the best fighters this country ever produced....zip.

Carlos-Wigan wrote:

DavidPayne wrote: But you miss my point - I think you're wrong. You're over-stating the earning potential of the recognition you're describing. Now if Bruno had been the front man for Calvin Klein or Hugo Boss or Ferrari or Yahoo....fine....but HP sauce isn't going to cut it.

No I am not wrong, and I bet if you asked David Haye would he like even a third of Bruno's public exposure or advertising opportunities he would say yes to that in a heartbeat because it is allright wanting to make money and becoming rich on the back of satellite TV but Haye wants recognition - hence his quest to get the Klitsckhos in the ring - he thinks that will bring him public recognition but it won't if it is hidden away on PPV.

As for you deriding the HP sauce adverts - many people still remember them 20 years later - which is what it is all about isn't it?

I'd have thought - what "its" all about is securing a lasting ring legacy, if we're to prioritise achievement beyond pounds and pence not Frank Bruno's appearances in panto or opposite Lenry Henry on a balcony.

MachoMan09 wrote:Stu, I disagree about Ricky being in a similar position to Jim Watt in 20 years. Both Barry McGuigan and Jim Watt are in shape, sharp of mind and relatively verbose - Glen McCrory and latterly Johnny Nelson are similar examples. Fattys don't cut the mustard long-term in the TV business.

That's quite true, he's not helping himself there. He's not helping himself with his conditioning. I was actually make some assumption that he might "settle down" a little more as he gets older and gets into some relative shape. Just goes out for 2-3 guinesses a weekend and not 22-23!

Naz is another one with dwindling fame, and yes his conditioning plays a part in that.

I think even if Hatton looked the part - (he is still sharp of mind, lets hope that remains), then he still wouldn't reach the fame of McGuigan or Bruno. He would have had he been on Terrestial TV cause he had "something" about him. His story, his fighting style everything made Ricky what he was.

My brother isn't a big boxing fan, but went to Uni in Lancaster and I can remember him call him - this was around 10 years ago asking who is this Ricky Hatton boxer people are raving about. You could get Ricky Hatton t-shirts in the market stalls of Bolton area even before a WBU title came his way. So he (and his promotion team) did incredibly well to get his popularity as it was.

Well there were certain terrestial TV world champions without the fame now.... Paul Hodkinson, Dave McAuley, Steve Robinson, Colin McMillan etc. You've got to have the charisma also.

Carlos-Wigan wrote:

You're making McGuigan and Bruno sound like Brand Beckham. Its bollacks. They've earned a good few quid out of their ring-persona's but most McGuigan's earning remain entrenched in boxing. Bruno had a huge fan-base - evidenced by his record breaking debut on PPV years ago. Can't argue. Haye, Calzaghe and Hatton learned from the mistakes of those guys, it may have led them away from the downtrodden path of the ex-pug willing to doff his cap for a torn fiver and grateful for the attention but it earned the money doing what he did best - fighting - and all three have far outstripped their predeccessors for earning potential beyond boxing, I'd venture Calzaghe earned more from 10 weeks on Strictly than Bruno did for years of HP adverts. And that was a small pot

Get back in your pram Dave, lets keep this to a discussion of differing opinions rather than accusing people of talking bollocks. Lets go back to the 1980s - you remember them as well as I do - which footballer got the media exposure of Frank Bruno or Barry McGuigan? Maybe Bryan Robson but I don't remember any other footballer getting that kind of media exposure but then again football has changed a hell of a lot since the 1980s and it has got 'sexier' and the demographic who are interested in it has grown. Football has always been popular but individual footballers were not getting the media opportunities of Bruno and thats a fact.

True - Hatton, Calazghe and Haye (and why are we ignoring other world champions like Johnny Nelson, Carl Thompson, Junior Witter, Clinton Woods etc etc) have earned more in boxing than their predecessors and its just as well because no-one is going to give a toss about them in 5 years time - neveer mind 20!

I appreciate the validity of purer achievements in an era of fewer bodies and fewer division but to suggest JC, DH and RH will not be remembered any less than their predeccesors is wrong, IMO. In the same way lloyd Honeyghan, Herol Graham, Ken Buchanan and, jOHN h/ sTRACEY, could all walk down the street now and no bugger would twig. Sure, had Hatton been on ITV when he left FW, he'd have been an even bigger name but I doubt he'd have had the money in the bank he has now.

DavidPayne wrote:You don't see Calzaghe? he was on BBC every Saturday and Sunday night for three months last year. I agree, British champions cannot make a living doing supermarket openings anymore. But the world has changed, its the way it is.

Thats the same argument the NCB and McGregor used to the miners Dave but I bet the house you wouldn't accept that as an argument. Thank you for agreeing that it's the lesser known boxers - the boxers who need the exposure to make money suffer.

But I think the argument falls down when you seek to compare McGuigan, Bruno with Hatton and Haye their natural successors as the fighters most recognisable by British fight fans.

[/quote]

Well, I didn't compare Bruno and McGuigan to Hatton, Haye and Calazghe - you did - in fact, I have gone out of the way to highlight the differences in their careers - McGuigan only had 4 world title fights, Bruno won one of five world title fights - you can't compare Bruno and McGuigan with todays champions in regards the number of world title fights and opportunities.


"Now whilst I take your point about Hatton's numerous 'world-title' fights, I think you're employing double standards - if were adopting the pursit criteria for a world-title fight, then you and I both know Hatton had nothing like that many title fights."

Its either a world title fight or its not. They are all the same and I am certainly not employing double standards! They are all as bad/good as each other, the one thing I would say is that mathematics dictate that when McGuigan won a world title he held 50% of the title (and the ring magazine world title) so of cours eit held more gravitas than any champion today. McGuigan defeated one of the greatest fighters never to win a world title of any kind - and his name was not John 'Mental Midget' Bailey!


"And of course, it isn't Hatton's fault McGuigan lost through bad management and heat to Stevie Cruz."

Who is talking about the fault of the fighter - where did I say it is Hatton's fault for anything that happened to McGuigans career?

"Hatton bounced from his defeat to Mayweather to once again scale the mountain and win world-title fights.
During which time he has appeared on every conceivable television format possible. And mcGigan and Bruno are your best examples - how many people would recognise Ken Buchanan or Alan Minter if they walked down the road and how many endorsements and contracts have they had since bing two of the best fighters this country ever produced....zip."

The problem with your argument is that you have picked the two most succesful British fighters of the millenium to back YOUR argument up when you seem to conviniently forget that there have been scores of world 'champions' who could have done with the public exposure to have made some extra money in their career. Why are you ignoring the likes of Clinton Woods? Junior Witter? Carl Thompson? Robin Reid? And no-one said that a boxing career is the route to a life of eternal fame and fortune, or I didn't anyway - but PPV doesn't benefit 95% of boxers and it doesn't benefit the fans so who does it benefit? And your argument of 'times change, deal with it' isn't good enough and you know it.

DavidPayne wrote: As for you deriding the HP sauce adverts - many people still remember them 20 years later - which is what it is all about isn't it?

I'd have thought - what "its" all about is securing a lasting ring legacy, if we're to prioritise achievement beyond pounds and pence not Frank Bruno's appearances in panto or opposite Lenry Henry on a balcony.[/quote]

Oh bollocks Dave, are you selling that on here? What legacy is he going to have if he did beat either Klitsckho? Neither are going down in history as all time greats believe me as for Haye's own legacy he wouldn't have fought John Ruiz in his first defence and about to prepare for Audley in October if that was his first priority it is all about the money and the recognition but being hidden away on PPV is a really inefficient way to get either.

You can laugh at Frank Bruno and his pantomine apperances but that and other out of the ring apperances got him a big mansion in Essex and holiday homes on three continents - it weren't through his ring earnings believe me.

And you are more than welcome to grammar check my posts - tit!

DavidPayne wrote:I appreciate the validity of purer achievements in an era of fewer bodies and fewer division but to suggest JC, DH and RH will not be remembered any less than their predeccesors is wrong, IMO. In the same way lloyd Honeyghan, Herol Graham, Ken Buchanan and, jOHN h/ sTRACEY, could all walk down the street now and no bugger would twig. Sure, had Hatton been on ITV when he left FW, he'd have been an even bigger name but I doubt he'd have had the money in the bank he has now.

Well you don't know this as fact but it is interesting that Charlie Magri - a fighter who had a total of three world title fights nealry 30 years ago - had a best selling autbiography written about him just recently as had Billy Walker who wrote his life story despite being retired for over 40 years (this is a fighter who made as much money outside the ring as he did in it because - well, I am sure you can guess, and he never won a title of any kind) and it is interesting that the likes of John Conteh and Joe Bugner can still command decent money with after dinner apperances.

This is because folks remember them on the telly. It's like we all know Geoff Capes was British strongest man back in 1980 but we couldn't name Britians strongest man 2010. Is Phil Taylor more famous that Jocky Wilson and Eric Bristow? Will the city streets stop when todays snooker champions pass away like they did with Hurricane Higgins? And if we are going to compare Stracey, Honeygan and Graham then lets compare them to their equivalents today - do you think anyone stops Rendall Munroe, Howard Eastman or
Carl Froch even today - at least back in the day everyone knew who Stracey, Honeygan and Graham were and they were able to make some money whilst the sun shone. Thats all it's about isn't it.