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Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 23 Aug 2010, 10:52
by Brutu
IMOP ,Im not sure whom Randy Roberts seemed to have the most contempt for in that HBO documentery.
Max Schmeling or the (and he seemed to emphisies it having been "A Southern Company".Atlanta Coca-Cola distributor.
Particularly since the very same HBO documentery a few minutes earlier talked about the Joe Louis's own soft drink THE JOE LOUIS PUNCH,
which went out of buisness about 2 years after it came out 1951-1952,due in part because Joe Louis didnt do enough to promote the drink.
Was out either doing exhibitions out side the country or playing golf when he was back in America.
Louis himself in his 1978 autobiography said he didnt really try and promote his own name brand soft drink and blamed himself for it having gone out of buisness so soon.
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 23 Aug 2010, 12:24
by raylawpc
yancey wrote:"The idea that somehow Louis should have been GIVEN a Coca-Cola distributorship over Schmeling (who actually bought the rights to distribute Coca-Cola) shows how ignorant some people are. People always want to cry and complain that Louis was mistreated by the government. Ive got news for you: if you work in this country (and boxing is work) you have to pay your effing taxes. Joe Louis made a hell of a lot more money in the ring than Schmeling and after the war Schmeling was nearly destitute while Louis was still making a fortune and acting as part owner in the most powerful boxing promotional company in the world. It says a lot about both men that Schmeling was able to go from almost nothing to one of Germany's most successful businessmen while Louis took his fortune and squandered it and then expected a handout from the government. Nobody LIKES paying taxes but we all have to do it. The government wasnt asking any more of Louis than it would from you or I. I just dont have much sympathy for a guy who was basically a millionaire back when that actually meant something and pissed it all away and then all his friends and fans act like he was being unfairly treated."
klompton
klompton, you absolutely nailed it.
I don't think Louis expected a hand-out from the government. As far as I know, he never asked for special treatment. I think he took his lumps from the IRS with the same fortitude that he took his a**-whipping from Rocky Marciano.
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 23 Aug 2010, 13:21
by wouter
Bxcing Illustrated ran an article about this in the late 1980s / early 1990s, in which the writer concluded that something fishy might have gone on. No hard evidence was presented however.
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 26 Aug 2010, 14:31
by s1ephen
So if yous all say that Louis gloves where loaded then you say all of his fights are under the spot light he had great power with excellent timing
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 26 Aug 2010, 15:17
by palooka
Louis was a wickedly hard and fast puncher; he never, ever did as much damage to anyone before Schmeling before or after; even in 10 and 12 round fights where he absolutely leathered his opponent for round after round. The rematch had a massive world significance that was above the sport of boxing. Schmeling was hospitalized for 2 weeks and had a crushed vertebrea. That is very, very unusual; even in a massive mismatch. I have never heard of any damage like this being inflicted on another boxer. Broken noses and jaws and concussions are regular enough but not the type of injury done to Schmeling.
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 26 Aug 2010, 15:44
by yancey
Does anybody know what Tom O'Rourke's role in the 2nd Schmeling-Louis fight was supposed to have been?
He was a fight manager who died in Schmeling's dressing room before the fight.
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 26 Aug 2010, 15:54
by iamasadlittleboy
Is it just me that sees a bit of Louis in David Lemeiux?...
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 26 Aug 2010, 16:29
by raylawpc
yancey wrote:Does anybody know what Tom O'Rourke's role in the 2nd Schmeling-Louis fight was supposed to have been?
He was a fight manager who died in Schmeling's dressing room before the fight.
He had no role whatsoever; he was dead.
I think you are referring to the first fight in 1936. He was there to act as a judge for one of the other fights on the card. O'Rourke had just dropped by the dressing room to wish Schmeling "good luck" before the fight, and was visiting with Joe Jacobs when he collapsed and died.
He was in his 80s at the time at the time of his death, and had managed Tom Sharkey, George Dixon and Barbados Joe Walcott at the turn of the century. He also later managed "white hope" Al Panzer and, if memory serves, Fred Fulton. During the Horton Era, he promoted fights in New York City at either the Broadway Athletic Club or Lennox Athletic Club (I can't remember which . . .). In the 1920s, he promoted fights at the Polo Grounds. He had also served on the NYSAC at one point.
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 26 Aug 2010, 16:55
by yancey
raylawpc wrote:yancey wrote:Does anybody know what Tom O'Rourke's role in the 2nd Schmeling-Louis fight was supposed to have been?
He was a fight manager who died in Schmeling's dressing room before the fight.
He had no role whatsoever; he was dead.
I think you are referring to the first fight in 1936. He was there to act as a judge on one of the other fights on the card. O'Rourke had just dropped by the dressing room to wish Schmeling "good luck" before the fight, and was visiting with Joe Jacobs when he collapsed and died.
He was in his 80s at the time at the time of his death, and had managed Tom Sharkey, George Dixon and Barbados Joe Walcott at the turn of the century. He also later managed "white hope" Al Panzer and, if memory serves, Fred Fulton. During the Horton Era, he promoted fights in New York City at either the Broadway Athletic Club or Lennox Athletics Club (I can't remember which . . .). In the 1920s, he promoted fights at the Polo Grounds. He had also served on the NYSAC at one point.
Are you sure that O'Rourke died right before the first Louis-Schmeling fight?
Wikipedia has him dying on 6/22/38, which is the date of the second fight.
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 26 Aug 2010, 17:00
by raylawpc
yancey wrote:raylawpc wrote:yancey wrote:Does anybody know what Tom O'Rourke's role in the 2nd Schmeling-Louis fight was supposed to have been?
He was a fight manager who died in Schmeling's dressing room before the fight.
He had no role whatsoever; he was dead.
I think you are referring to the first fight in 1936. He was there to act as a judge on one of the other fights on the card. O'Rourke had just dropped by the dressing room to wish Schmeling "good luck" before the fight, and was visiting with Joe Jacobs when he collapsed and died.
He was in his 80s at the time at the time of his death, and had managed Tom Sharkey, George Dixon and Barbados Joe Walcott at the turn of the century. He also later managed "white hope" Al Panzer and, if memory serves, Fred Fulton. During the Horton Era, he promoted fights in New York City at either the Broadway Athletic Club or Lennox Athletics Club (I can't remember which . . .). In the 1920s, he promoted fights at the Polo Grounds. He had also served on the NYSAC at one point.
Are you sure that O'Rourke died right before the first Louis-Schmeling fight?
Wikipedia has him dying on 6/22/38, which is the date of the second fight.
Wikipedia is wrong. He died before the first fight.
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 26 Aug 2010, 17:12
by Brutu
According to the newspaper archives Tom O'Rourke died in the dressing room of the first fight in June 1936.
Reportly he collaypsed in Max Schemling's arms just before the fight and died later.
But not before repeating the advice he had given Schmeling earlier during training.
Shoot the right after Louis's first jab as he always jabs twice.
(Thats what Schmeling told the newspaper reporter anyway).
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 26 Aug 2010, 17:16
by Darling
Gran Snr would not have made such a mistake; he doesn't rely on Wikipedia for his boxing knowledge.
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 26 Aug 2010, 19:08
by raylawpc
Brutu wrote:According to the newspaper archives Tom O'Rourke died in the dressing room of the first fight in June 1936.
Reportly he collaypsed in Max Schemling's arms just before the fight and died later.
But not before repeating the advice he had given Schmeling earlier during training.
Shoot the right after Louis's first jab as he always jabs twice.
(Thats what Schmeling told the newspaper reporter anyway).
The more likely version says that he was sitting in the dressing room talking to Joe Jacobs when he suddenly keeled over and died. Jacobs got his body out of the dressing room into a hall, and someone called for an ambulance. (O'Rourke was apparently dead before he hit the ground.) Jacobs did not want Schmeling to know what had happened, fearing it might unnerve Max before one of the biggest fights of his life. Schmeling found out about O'Rouke's death after the fight. That account sounds more pausible to me.
Another account says that O'Rourke exclaimed right before collapsing: "
I'd die to see Schmeling beat Louis!" Uh-huh . . .
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 27 Aug 2010, 02:06
by jaclem2
..louis busted up the vertebrae because schmeling partly turned his back as louis was landing the punch...or punches...in that area. i know of no other fight in which louis had this target to hit,
while i sometimes argue with a person on this forum i always allow for a mere difference of opinion.
however...anyone who thinks joe louis had loaded gloves...ever...in any fight....is speaking from ignorance...sheer ignorance...
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 27 Aug 2010, 06:28
by bollox
Hi Jac
Are you seriously trying to tell me that Lewis and Clay didn't have shards of glass embedded in their gloves for the Klitschko and Cooper fights respectively? Geeeeezuz, lad
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 27 Aug 2010, 10:05
by palooka
Are Margarito and Luis Resto the only 2; or the only who got caught out?
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 27 Aug 2010, 14:44
by jaclem2
...bollox has photographic evidence of the gloves he's referring to, plus a strip of film showing the pieces of glass being embedded..now that is not pure conjecture! :P
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 27 Aug 2010, 15:22
by palooka
jaclem2 wrote:...bollox has photographic evidence of the gloves he's referring to, plus a strip of film showing the pieces of glass being embedded..now that is not pure conjecture! :P
Did loaded gloves start with Resto and Margarito
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 28 Aug 2010, 03:00
by Brutu
The newspapers went from (allegedly)of a reporter finding a Nazi uniform in Max Machon's closet at the training camp in Speculator
New York.
To Max Machon(Schmeling's trainer) actually seen walking around wearing a Nazi uniform, usually after the public work out sessions proclaiming himself to be a member of the superior race.
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 28 Aug 2010, 03:19
by Brutu
jaclem2 wrote:..louis busted up the vertebrae because schmeling partly turned his back as louis was landing the punch...or punches...in that area. i know of no other fight in which louis had this target to hit,
check out 3:26 of this fight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUl656wKPX0
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 28 Aug 2010, 13:33
by Brutu
I wonder how many of the 70,000 + crowd at MSG in NYC in 1938,were Schmeling supporters?
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 28 Aug 2010, 13:38
by Brutu
Was there some type of conspiracy in the second Louis-Schmeling fight?
Who knows?
However some historians do believe that there had been a conspiracy involving another famous incident
down the road in New Jersey just 11 months earlier.
Check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F54rqDh2mWA
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 28 Aug 2010, 15:28
by jaclem2
brutu...i can't get youtube but i don't have to as i have the fight on both film and tape and i've watched it, studied it and wrote about it many times. but, if you insist when i get a chance i'll get out the film.....mich bigger picture...and look at it again.
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 28 Aug 2010, 16:13
by Brutu
That link to youtube was for the Louis vs Retzlaff fight.
The final knock down was almost identical to when Louis had Schmeling against the ropes and aslo turned away from Louis.
Re: Joe Louis v Max Schmeling 2 (loaded gloves)
Posted: 29 Aug 2010, 02:47
by jaclem2
..brutu...i'll see if i can find a place where i can see this one youtube.
uh...the seconds listed are after 3 minutes....so the round is over. was there something in the corner going on that i should watch for?