BoxRec

orbtastic wrote:I've some of the fights on DVD.

I'd certainly have them ahead of guys like say, Ingle, Weir & Catley etc.

Don't forget Silky Jones and Jason Mathews while you're at it.

oliverfennell wrote:

bennie wrote:If Oliver Fennell hasn't seen them, they can't fight in his opinion. Winstone is a must for any British all-time top 10. He would have played with someone like Paul Hodkinson.

Yeah, that Jack Johnson, what a dud.

Of course Winstone would have played with Hodkinson. What's that got to do with anything? It's not like anyone is positing Hoko as a British ATG.

Actually, I rate Hoko very highly - top 20.

bennie wrote:

oliverfennell wrote:

bennie wrote:If Oliver Fennell hasn't seen them, they can't fight in his opinion. Winstone is a must for any British all-time top 10. He would have played with someone like Paul Hodkinson.

Yeah, that Jack Johnson, what a dud.

Of course Winstone would have played with Hodkinson. What's that got to do with anything? It's not like anyone is positing Hoko as a British ATG.

Actually, I rate Hoko very highly - top 20.

On what basis? I'm not being argumentative here, I'm genuinely interested.

He was thoroughly exposed by Vargas, who looked the goods when he did so but ultimately didn't become the A-lister some thought he would. Villasana was kind of middle of the road in overall terms. Benichou and an utterly shot Cruz don't add much.

Hoko was great VFM, deserved the rewards of hard work, but I think his level was established.

oliverfennell wrote:

bennie wrote:

oliverfennell wrote: Yeah, that Jack Johnson, what a dud.

Of course Winstone would have played with Hodkinson. What's that got to do with anything? It's not like anyone is positing Hoko as a British ATG.

Actually, I rate Hoko very highly - top 20.

On what basis? I'm not being argumentative here, I'm genuinely interested.

He was thoroughly exposed by Vargas, who looked the goods when he did so but ultimately didn't become the A-lister some thought he would. Villasana was kind of middle of the road in overall terms. Benichou and an utterly shot Cruz don't add much.

Hoko was great VFM, deserved the rewards of hard work, but I think his level was established.

Thoroughly exposed are hardly the words that spring to mind with me. Hodkinson was fighting a beautiful fight against Vargas when he got tagged, which happens at that level, and it was much the same in the first Villasana fight when he showed he was probably the best featherweight in the world at the time. Villasana, a mile behind on points, butted the fight from him. In the rematch, by which time Villasana had established himself as a good champion, Hoko was simply a revelation. He must have hit the frighteningly durable Mexican a million times (again) but this time he was in and out. He punched the dangerous Ricardo Cepeda to a standstill in defence of his title, in a McGuigan-like performance - and busting the Cruz myth and busting up Benichou in his own France are solid enough defences for me, although he was not happy with his display against Benichou.
There was talk of Hoko taking on WBO champion Colin McMillan afterwards in a unification match but the money was never right. I had seen Hodkinson break up McMillan on the way to an easy three-round decision in the ABAs in 1986. He also licked East Germany's Andreas Zuelow in the amateurs, who won lightweight gold in the 1988 Olympics. What I am trying to say is that Hoko was a punishing, exciting fighter from word go, and it is a mystery to me how he never sold tickets in Liverpool. Hoko did it the old-fashioned way - ABA title, British title, European title, WBC title. Eat your heart out, Naz.

Darling wrote:No one remember Bert Gilroy?

read the book by his grandson who posts onhere but top ten all time not a chance from what ive read.

Lennox Lewis
Ted Kid lewis
Bob Fitzsimmons
Jimmy Wilde
Benny Lynch
Ken Buchanan
Jack Kid berg
Joe Calzaghe
John Conteh
Naz
Hatton (maybe biased here veen to many of his fights)
Honeygun
Benn (admit my bias here but a hero of mine)
Randy Turpin
Winstone

in that order main points taken into account achievement / big wins / longevity.

Berg was in my opinion gifted the win over Chocolate, who never seemed to be on the judges good sides when it came to close Decisions. I thought he narrowly beat Canzoneri as well, actually. Berg was one of the biggest over-achievers of all time for my money.

bennie wrote:

oliverfennell wrote:

bennie wrote: Actually, I rate Hoko very highly - top 20.

On what basis? I'm not being argumentative here, I'm genuinely interested.

He was thoroughly exposed by Vargas, who looked the goods when he did so but ultimately didn't become the A-lister some thought he would. Villasana was kind of middle of the road in overall terms. Benichou and an utterly shot Cruz don't add much.

Hoko was great VFM, deserved the rewards of hard work, but I think his level was established.

Thoroughly exposed are hardly the words that spring to mind with me. Hodkinson was fighting a beautiful fight against Vargas when he got tagged, which happens at that level, and it was much the same in the first Villasana fight when he showed he was probably the best featherweight in the world at the time. Villasana, a mile behind on points, butted the fight from him. In the rematch, by which time Villasana had established himself as a good champion, Hoko was simply a revelation. He must have hit the frighteningly durable Mexican a million times (again) but this time he was in and out. He punched the dangerous Ricardo Cepeda to a standstill in defence of his title, in a McGuigan-like performance - and busting the Cruz myth and busting up Benichou in his own France are solid enough defences for me, although he was not happy with his display against Benichou.
There was talk of Hoko taking on WBO champion Colin McMillan afterwards in a unification match but the money was never right. I had seen Hodkinson break up McMillan on the way to an easy three-round decision in the ABAs in 1986. He also licked East Germany's Andreas Zuelow in the amateurs, who won lightweight gold in the 1988 Olympics. What I am trying to say is that Hoko was a punishing, exciting fighter from word go, and it is a mystery to me how he never sold tickets in Liverpool. Hoko did it the old-fashioned way - ABA title, British title, European title, WBC title. Eat your heart out, Naz.

Good analysis, though I'm not sure Cepeda adds a lot, even though Hoko was sharp on the night. "Busting the Cruz myth" at that stage was probably worth less than Lewis busting the Tyson myth - even before the fight, we all knew Cruz was just a name.

OK, I was harsh with "thoroughly exposed", but he was beaten fair and square and, as said, Vargas ultimately did not achieve what we thought he would.

Villasana, yes, top class at the time but not comparable with the likes of Pedroza, Tzyu, Curry etc - other division leaders beaten by Brits.

For all that, agreed that his relative lack of popularity is strange. He should have been bigger than he was, especially for that era.

Finally, eat your heart out Naz? Naz didn't win the British but he did win ABAs, the European and the WBC too.

I don’t want to go overboard on Hoko, because Naz is a better fighter, but take away the crummy WBO, and Hodkinson is one of the most successful British world champions of all time, making more defences than McGuigan or Buchanan and as many as fellow Scouse great, John Conteh. Then the WBO came along and allowed men such as Eubank and Naz to pick their own weights and their own challengers, and Johnny Nelson’s 13 cruiserweight defences says it all, a case of lucky for him, unlucky for the rest of us.
Just as Ricky Hatton was not considered the best fighter in his division until he licked Kostya Tszyu, so Naz was not the best at featherweight, in my opinion, until he licked Tom Johnson for the IBF belt (and later Cesar Soto for the WBC in a God-awful fight) That may be a stuck-in-the-past view, but there you have it. Naz never defended the WBC title and made just two defences of the IBF, before lingering back to the WBO. I think that Naz is overrated and Hoko, underrated.

Get off! Nel Tarleton (left) has a tug of war with Johnny Cuthbert.

who's that on the far right?

orbtastic wrote:who's that on the far right?

I'm afraid I don't know.

bennie wrote:

orbtastic wrote:who's that on the far right?

I'm afraid I don't know.

Going by his Norman/Harry Osborn type barnet ...... I'd guess it's former boxer/manager Ted Broadribb (aka Young Snowball who KO'd Georges Carpentier)

He looks a handful, even though he's clearly older than the boxers.

Quick google image search says you're right!

fking hell, thats good geeking right there bladder, fair play.

Counter-puncher wrote:fking hell, thats good geeking right there bladder, fair play.

Bladder knows his stuff.

Darling wrote:Bladder knows his stuff.

Had Broadribb handled Bert Gilroy he would be up there with Greb, Robinson etc ..... if he isn't already that is

Bladder wrote:

Darling wrote:Bladder knows his stuff.

Had Broadribb handled Bert Gilroy he would be up there with Greb, Robinson etc ..... if he isn't already that is

Results alone don't tell the WHOLE story............ Those GREAT British fighters that have been WRONGLY denied their TRUE place in history.

(He'll be here soon, steam coming out of all orifices, to chastise me. Then a whining PM to Old Shep)

I'm sure I'm leaving out a few, but English top 10 (in no particular order):

Jimmy Wilde
Ted Lewis
Jim Driscoll
Bob Fitzimmons (was part of UK)
Ken Buchanan
Jack Berg
Jock McAvoy
Lennox Lewis
Joe Calzaghe
Freddie Welsh

I know he was a fan favorite but I don't really see how Benn or Naz make it in, Lthough they are definite top 20 and maybe 15.

Bladder wrote:

bennie wrote:

orbtastic wrote:who's that on the far right?

I'm afraid I don't know.

Going by his Norman/Harry Osborn type barnet ...... I'd guess it's former boxer/manager Ted Broadribb (aka Young Snowball who KO'd Georges Carpentier)

This is seriously good knowledge.

I'm curious about his record now, it has just the 3 fights on boxrec. Anyone?

bennie wrote:I don’t want to go overboard on Hoko, because Naz is a better fighter, but take away the crummy WBO, and Hodkinson is one of the most successful British world champions of all time, making more defences than McGuigan or Buchanan and as many as fellow Scouse great, John Conteh. Then the WBO came along and allowed men such as Eubank and Naz to pick their own weights and their own challengers, and Johnny Nelson’s 13 cruiserweight defences says it all, a case of lucky for him, unlucky for the rest of us.
Just as Ricky Hatton was not considered the best fighter in his division until he licked Kostya Tszyu, so Naz was not the best at featherweight, in my opinion, until he licked Tom Johnson for the IBF belt (and later Cesar Soto for the WBC in a God-awful fight) That may be a stuck-in-the-past view, but there you have it. Naz never defended the WBC title and made just two defences of the IBF, before lingering back to the WBO. I think that Naz is overrated and Hoko, underrated.

Agree 100% about the WBO. I remember it being a big deal when Dave McAuley set the then-record number of world title defences by a Brit, at four.

I think nowadays the WBO is just as good/bad as the others, although that may be more a case of the others having lowered themselves so much, rather than the WBO improving.

But certainly, to use your examples, of the big 4, only the WBO would have permitted people like Sam Storey, Dan Schommer, Sione Asipeli and Willard Lewis to contest "world championships".

I don't think Naz's WBO challengers were all that bad, though. Sure, there was a bit of "filler" here and there, but no outright shockers - except perhaps his first defence, whose name escapes me, but who lasted 30 seconds.

oliverfennell wrote:

bennie wrote:I don’t want to go overboard on Hoko, because Naz is a better fighter, but take away the crummy WBO, and Hodkinson is one of the most successful British world champions of all time, making more defences than McGuigan or Buchanan and as many as fellow Scouse great, John Conteh. Then the WBO came along and allowed men such as Eubank and Naz to pick their own weights and their own challengers, and Johnny Nelson’s 13 cruiserweight defences says it all, a case of lucky for him, unlucky for the rest of us.
Just as Ricky Hatton was not considered the best fighter in his division until he licked Kostya Tszyu, so Naz was not the best at featherweight, in my opinion, until he licked Tom Johnson for the IBF belt (and later Cesar Soto for the WBC in a God-awful fight) That may be a stuck-in-the-past view, but there you have it. Naz never defended the WBC title and made just two defences of the IBF, before lingering back to the WBO. I think that Naz is overrated and Hoko, underrated.

Agree 100% about the WBO. I remember it being a big deal when Dave McAuley set the then-record number of world title defences by a Brit, at four.

I think nowadays the WBO is just as good/bad as the others, although that may be more a case of the others having lowered themselves so much, rather than the WBO improving.

But certainly, to use your examples, of the big 4, only the WBO would have permitted people like Sam Storey, Dan Schommer, Sione Asipeli and Willard Lewis to contest "world championships".

I don't think Naz's WBO challengers were all that bad, though. Sure, there was a bit of "filler" here and there, but no outright shockers - except perhaps his first defence, whose name escapes me, but who lasted 30 seconds.

Naz fought - and destroyed - a lot of of world class opponents up to (and after) the Johnson and Soto cracks, which is my way of looking at it. He certainly fought better opponents than Joe Calzaghe during the Welshman's own WBO title tenure, which seemed to last forever and really hurts Joe's legacy. The WBO title, of course, is largely used by big European promoters to bypass the tricky European title for their men.

dempseyfire wrote:I'm sure I'm leaving out a few, but English top 10 (in no particular order):

Jimmy Wilde
Ted Lewis
Jim Driscoll
Bob Fitzimmons (was part of UK)
Ken Buchanan
Jack Berg
Jock McAvoy
Lennox Lewis
Joe Calzaghe
Freddie Welsh

I know he was a fan favorite but I don't really see how Benn or Naz make it in, Lthough they are definite top 20 and maybe 15.

You've cooked your own goose here, Dempsey.

You're putting Welsh and Scottish boxers in and a list (good list that it is) and calling it your "English" top 10.

Whatever you do, don't post on the British Forum until you've had a letter from the Queen in which she accepts your apology.

my eyes tells me its a prime Hamed..

but accomplishments/legacy, it should be Bob Fitzsimmons/Jimmy Wilde..