BoxRec

Crease wrote:Marciano wins mid rounds by KO.

Where were guys like you to bet with back in the good old days?

raylawpc wrote:

mrshot wrote:i think if marciano would of been able to bulk up and get to at least 210 pounds and carry the weight at the same intensity and have the power and speed he had as he was at 189 then i think he would pummel the heavyweights of today

You originally wrote: "marciano would not stand a chance,holmes is to bigger,faster,and has a jab that would rip marciano apart,holmes wins by first round kayo"

I ask again: Are you being rhetorical or do you really believe Marciano could not have survived one round with Holmes?

and i have added a different scenario into the discussion[if you dont mind],if marciano would of been able to carry his package from 189 to 210 he would of been the best there ever was

yancey wrote:

Crease wrote:Marciano wins mid rounds by KO.

Where were guys like you to bet with back in the good old days?

Rocky would do a lot better than people here think. I say 50/50. ESB is a lot kinder to Marciano than boxrec.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:Rocky would do a lot better than people here think. I say 50/50. ESB is a lot kinder to Marciano than boxrec.

Gee, imagine that

yancey wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Holmes. Decisively.

Dempsey & Frazier would be a much tougher assignment for him.

Agree completely. I don't see Marciano going 15 rounds with Holmes, he would be a bloody mess.



p.s. Don't want to hijack the thread, but it is interesting that you have Marciano-Frazier, having pretty similar styles, as a near toss-up, yet you view (quite rightly, imo) Frazier as a "much tougher assignment" for Holmes.

Styles. Frazier's up-tempo, high-volume workrate & stylistic advantage would hurt Holmes, but be neutralised to a large extent against Marciano.

mrshot wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

mrshot wrote:i think if marciano would of been able to bulk up and get to at least 210 pounds and carry the weight at the same intensity and have the power and speed he had as he was at 189 then i think he would pummel the heavyweights of today

You originally wrote: "marciano would not stand a chance,holmes is to bigger,faster,and has a jab that would rip marciano apart,holmes wins by first round kayo"

I ask again: Are you being rhetorical or do you really believe Marciano could not have survived one round with Holmes?

and i have added a different scenario into the discussion[if you dont mind],if marciano would of been able to carry his package from 189 to 210 he would of been the best there ever was

I do mind. Please answer the question.

mugabi wrote:

mrshot wrote:

raylawpc wrote: So . . . Marciano couldn't last as long as Scott Frank or Lorenzo Zanon . . .

marciano weighed 189 pounds and was very powerful for his size but a heavyweight champion from that era would not stand a chance against more modern era champion

i think Holmes would handle Marciano with ease but if you're including Jack Dempsey in that, Dempsey breaks Holmes jaw and stops him mercilessly

So Dempsey was better than Marciano?

Grimm wrote:

mugabi wrote:

mrshot wrote:marciano weighed 189 pounds and was very powerful for his size but a heavyweight champion from that era would not stand a chance against more modern era champion

i think Holmes would handle Marciano with ease but if you're including Jack Dempsey in that, Dempsey breaks Holmes jaw and stops him mercilessly

So Dempsey was better than Marciano?

Absolutely, he was

Holmes would kick Dempsey's ass too. But I agree Jack was better than Rock.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:True that he never fought anyone out of a crouch. It's also true that his second best punch was his uppercut. Are you saying that Holmes would find Marciano difficult to hit?

As for the predictions, they are just that. If ATG fighters were squaring off everyday there would be quite a few slaughters. Not a chance in the world that every fight would be nip and tuck. I predict what I see. In this case I predict a dominant win for Holmes. I'm often shocked by the actual fights. Just like I would have been if I watched Lloyd Marshall bounce Ezzard off the canvas like a Basketball. Somebody could have predicted that going in too.

Of course Holmes would be able to hit Marciano. And guess what? Holmes was susceptible to a straight right. And if it comes froma deep crouch like he's probably never seen before, he's probably going to get get hit with it more than once. Styles make fights, and Holmes had problems with fighters who put pressure and threw a lot of punches.

Exactly who did Holmes "handle easily"?

I would say he handled Gerry Cooney and Ray Mercer easily. He lost one round out of 23 against Shavers. Anybody that troubled Holmes tended to be a solid defender.

I don't recall saying Marciano wouldn't land a punch. Holmes was more prone to getting caught with overhand rights, that doesn't change your point but it's a valid correction. They were also long outside shots which is pretty impossible for Rocky to come up with. Certainly Marciano was capable of hurting or even flooring him. I don't think it changes the result any.

The whole , who did he fight that did this type of questioning is pretty weak. That line of thinking pretty much prohibits predictions by nature. You don't need exact replica's to come up with a vision of a fight.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:True that he never fought anyone out of a crouch. It's also true that his second best punch was his uppercut. Are you saying that Holmes would find Marciano difficult to hit?

As for the predictions, they are just that. If ATG fighters were squaring off everyday there would be quite a few slaughters. Not a chance in the world that every fight would be nip and tuck. I predict what I see. In this case I predict a dominant win for Holmes. I'm often shocked by the actual fights. Just like I would have been if I watched Lloyd Marshall bounce Ezzard off the canvas like a Basketball. Somebody could have predicted that going in too.

Absurdities do happen but you’d have to question the prediction going in?

You’re right that if the greats squared off there would be some massacres… but if two people predicted the outcome of every fight and Mr A predicted close encounters and Mr B predicted walkovers then Mr A is going to be right more than Mr B.

Holmes really dominated Leon Spinks, David Bey, Lorenzo Zanon. Marciano is way above their league. Holmes also had a real give and take fight with Weaver and Marciano is above Mike too.

The main issue for me is that Marciano’s reknown stamina was a major factor in the fights with Charles and Walcott. Whilst they were still top fighters I don’t feel their legs were what they had been. Like Marciano, a prime Holmes could fight all night long. I’m not sure Marciano would be able to close the gap in the championship rounds like he did in his infamous title win and his defence against Charles.

Marciano’s best hope is that he pulls off a Snipes style right hand. It could be done but I’m betting against it.

Obviously there would be a way higher number of close fights. I don't think this would be one of them. Holmes is looking at, give or take, a 2 foot advantage in reach. I know Rock gave up reach in every fight. but giving a guy with that jab and legs a foot an arm is suicide to me.

I completely get John L's point about so and so would destroy, etc...It actually frustrates me more in situations like Ali/Witherspoon. I don't see a scenario where that isn't a close fight. But in this particular bout, I don't get how it's unreasonable to see Larry as being dominant. He has a lot of advantages and it's not like he didn't have the heart and balls to get through a rough moment or two and get back to business.

raylawpc wrote:

mrshot wrote:

raylawpc wrote: You originally wrote: "marciano would not stand a chance,holmes is to bigger,faster,and has a jab that would rip marciano apart,holmes wins by first round kayo"

I ask again: Are you being rhetorical or do you really believe Marciano could not have survived one round with Holmes?

and i have added a different scenario into the discussion[if you dont mind],if marciano would of been able to carry his package from 189 to 210 he would of been the best there ever was

I do mind. Please answer the question.

i have answered the question a long time ago,i will give another scenario similar but worded differently[if you dont mind]marciano had incredible power for his size and with that he always moved forward throwing bombs,if he added the weight in todays game he would be unbeaten

mrshot wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

mrshot wrote:and i have added a different scenario into the discussion[if you dont mind],if marciano would of been able to carry his package from 189 to 210 he would of been the best there ever was

I do mind. Please answer the question.

i have answered the question a long time ago,i will give another scenario similar but worded differently[if you dont mind]marciano had incredible power for his size and with that he always moved forward throwing bombs,if he added the weight in todays game he would be unbeaten

Now that would be a shocker because he was also unbeaten in yesterday's game...

Jaywheel wrote:

mrshot wrote:

raylawpc wrote: I do mind. Please answer the question.

i have answered the question a long time ago,i will give another scenario similar but worded differently[if you dont mind]marciano had incredible power for his size and with that he always moved forward throwing bombs,if he added the weight in todays game he would be unbeaten

Now that would be a shocker because he was also unbeaten in yesterday's game...

rocky liked to move forward throwing thunderous punches,with that he was able to dismantle the opponents offense,i also would like to add[if you dont mind]this being said holmes sharp crisp jab would be able to keep the lighter rocky at bay,but if rocky would bulk up to 210 the jab would not be as effective as before ,

Some of you guys amaze me sometimes.

You think Rocky gets teleported into the future with his trainer, he isnt gonna down protein shakes, take some steroids and bulk up to 200 hell probbly even 215 and be just as effective as before?

Things like footwork and speed were never his strengths smashing the other guy up in the kiester or down in the bread basket were

mrshot wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

mrshot wrote:and i have added a different scenario into the discussion[if you dont mind],if marciano would of been able to carry his package from 189 to 210 he would of been the best there ever was

I do mind. Please answer the question.

i have answered the question a long time ago,i will give another scenario similar but worded differently[if you dont mind]marciano had incredible power for his size and with that he always moved forward throwing bombs,if he added the weight in todays game he would be unbeaten

I didn't see any answer to my question. But that in itself says a lot, I suppose.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Obviously there would be a way higher number of close fights. I don't think this would be one of them. Holmes is looking at, give or take, a 2 foot advantage in reach. I know Rock gave up reach in every fight. but giving a guy with that jab and legs a foot an arm is suicide to me.

I completely get John L's point about so and so would destroy, etc...It actually frustrates me more in situations like Ali/Witherspoon. I don't see a scenario where that isn't a close fight. But in this particular bout, I don't get how it's unreasonable to see Larry as being dominant. He has a lot of advantages and it's not like he didn't have the heart and balls to get through a rough moment or two and get back to business.

Of course Holmes could overcome tough moments. That's was one of his greatest assets. Of course, he also would have been chased and hounded for 15 rounds, and the few times that happened he struggled. And I think that a prime Marciano is a fair site better than the slightly past it Norton that Holmes struggled with and the under rated Mike Weaver. Holmes would most likely have won, probably sweeping the early rounds, but he would have slowed down, as he alwasy did when pressed, and Rocky would have pounded him in the mid-late rounds.

As far as Spoon/Ali; are we talking a prime Ali? Because if we are, I fail to see how a prime Ali has trouble avoiding Spoon and winning a pretty one sided decision. Spoon was a good fighter, when he decided to train, but he also was slow footed. At least compared to a prime Ali.

We're talking styles with both of these hypotheticals, and I don't see any example of a prime Ali having any trouble with slow footed opponents, and certainly Witherspoon was hardly nimble on his feet. And Holmes had his toughest fights against guys who came forward and applied pressure, which certainly describes Rocky.

He was chased continuously by Shavers in their first fight and he won every second. I'll repeat, anybody Holmes struggled with was an above average defender. If you must try to use a comparison of opponent when jumping decades and hypothesizing about ATG squaring off, you should at least use the whole scenario.

And I would completely disagree about Marciano being a tougher opponent than Norton for a fighter like Holmes or Ali. On one hand you say styles and then on the other you say Marciano is better than Norton like the style match up against fighters is irrelevant.Which is it?

As for the other fight, I've already stated that I find your method of who did he fight.......to be nonsensical. No need to go in another circle. Spoon was no more slow of foot than Norton was anyway.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:He was chased continuously by Shavers in their first fight and he won every second. I'll repeat, anybody Holmes struggled with was an above average defender. If you must try to use a comparison of opponent when jumping decades and hypothesizing about ATG squaring off, you should at least use the whole scenario.

Weaver was an above average defender? Norton was relativeley easy to hit as well. Have you seen those guys fiight?

And yes, Shavers did chase him with very little success. The key word in your statement is chased. Irrelevant to the discussion.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:And I would completely disagree about Marciano being a tougher opponent than Norton for a fighter like Holmes or Ali. On one hand you say styles and then on the other you say Marciano is better than Norton like the style match up against fighters is irrelevant.Which is it?

A better pressure fighter, a better puncher, a better chin and better stamina than the slightly past it Norton. There is absolutely no contradiction here because Norton and Weaver were probably the closest in styles of Holmes quality opponents. Styles matter and the only intelligent way to assess matchups of fighters that never fought is to look at examples of opponents who fought similar styles. Neither of them is the same style as Rocky, but of Holmes quality opponents, they are probably closest.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:As for the other fight, I've already stated that I find your method of who did he fight.......to be nonsensical. No need to go in another circle. Spoon was no more slow of foot than Norton was anyway.

Who did he fight is nonsensical!? I can only guess that you're lack of ammo in this debate seems to be making you a little confused, because that statement is about as defenseless as any I have heard on this forum.

I'm not sure why you're getting so butthurt, but you're the one that is confused.

What is nonsensical is trying to pretend that a mirror image opponent needs to be there to accurately predict success. You just don't find many 185lb Heavyweights fighting out of a crouch with arms as long as toes in Larry's era.

As for ammo, I don't even know what you think you're carrying on about. So yeah, I'm quite lacking there. Marciano's style resembled Norton or Weaver's about as much as LaStarza's mirrored Holmes. That's what is nonsensical, they are ATG for a reason. They are unique. You can gauge some things from who they fought, but it's mainly guess work and how you think their styles will mesh. Not any different than a fight today you just will never have the actual result to point fingers or pat backs.

Sometimes people are going to think it's a rough night for one of them. Don't get so riled up about it to the point where you can't even post. Ignore it and make your own prediction. Because I don't see anyway that Rocky isn't getting the crap kicked out of him here. I hope you can sleep at night.

I can see Marciano tough and game trying to keep on comign forward but Holmes will just stand off at long range and just try and jab Marciano's head off and cut his face to ribbons while Marciano tries to get inside and pound Holmes' body, but I can see it as a cut stoppage in the back end of the fight as Marciano spends most of the fighting eating Holmes' jab.

IRLangmaid25 wrote:I can see Marciano tough and game trying to keep on comign forward but Holmes will just stand off at long range and just try and jab Marciano's head off and cut his face to ribbons while Marciano tries to get inside and pound Holmes' body, but I can see it as a cut stoppage in the back end of the fight as Marciano spends most of the fighting eating Holmes' jab.

thats with marciano weighing in at 189,if he came in at 210 marciano wins by brutal knockout