BoxRec

Accomplishment at HW:

1. Lewis
2. Holyfield
3. Tyson
4. Bowe

Talent:

1. Tyson
2. Holyfield
3. Bowe
4. Lewis (Although I would say that Lewis was the most skilled)

As Heavyweights:

1. Lewis
2. Holyfield
3. Tyson
4. Bowe

As fighters (P4P):

1. Holyfield
2. Lewis
3. Tyson
4. Bowe

keithmoonhangover wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Nonsense

I'll tell you something --- & it's well-documented I am Big George's biggest fan around here --- it got flat-out embarrassing for Holyfield when he couldn't floor Foreman. For that many shots, in that succession, Tyson would've levelled Foreman for the count, had he been the one landing them.

Holyfield was an average puncher once he left Cruiser. I'm not being critical of his power at Heavyweight --- no one is sanely going to declare it below-average --- but I don't wanna hear how it was anything special, either. Frankly, it wasn't, even though you do encounter people from time-to-time who act as if Holyfield could really bang.

Holyfield not being able to floor was "embarrassing". Irene, you are talking complete poo.

I agree.

Foreman had one of the soundest chins in the history of HW boxing.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I would rate him a harder puncher than Vitali. I doubt that opinion would garner much support.

I'd rate them both as about average in the power depatrment for elite fighters

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:As fighters there is no doubt Holyfield ranks first. If you're talking about Heavyweights than Lewis has a claim to the top spot.

For me, if it's accomplishments

Holyfield
Lewis
Tyson
Bowe

If it's talent

Holyfield
Bowe
Lewis
Tyson

lewis above tyson for talent ????

sg1985 wrote:I'll make a similar list as Saad:

Accomplishment:

1. Lewis
2. Holyfield
3. Tyson
4. Bowe

Talent:

1. Holyfield
2. Lewis
3. Bowe
4. Tyson

tyson in last for talent???

I wouldn't expect much from someone who took two posts to realize that Tyson was 4th on the list.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I wouldn't expect much from someone who took two posts to realize that Tyson was 4th on the list.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I would rate him a harder puncher than Vitali. I doubt that opinion would garner much support.

COme on Saad, as much as you over-rate Holyfield, even you can't truly believe that drivel. Holyfield a harder puncher than Vitali Klitschko . . .that is truly ridiculous.

dempseyfire wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I would rate him a harder puncher than Vitali. I doubt that opinion would garner much support.

COme on Saad, as much as you over-rate Holyfield, even you can't truly believe that drivel. Holyfield a harder puncher than Vitali Klitschko . . .that is truly ridiculous.

Pretty much everything Saad says in ridiculous.

dempseyfire wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I would rate him a harder puncher than Vitali. I doubt that opinion would garner much support.

COme on Saad, as much as you over-rate Holyfield, even you can't truly believe that drivel. Holyfield a harder puncher than Vitali Klitschko . . .that is truly ridiculous.

Absolutely, Vitali is the most overrated puncher in the history of the sport. If you want to feed off of internet hype and slapping around fat guys until the fights are stopped. Be my guest.

sg1985 wrote:Was that your other account earlier? King1?

Do you mean me?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I would rate him a harder puncher than Vitali. I doubt that opinion would garner much support.

COme on Saad, as much as you over-rate Holyfield, even you can't truly believe that drivel. Holyfield a harder puncher than Vitali Klitschko . . .that is truly ridiculous.

Absolutely, Vitali is the most overrated puncher in the history of the sport. If you want to feed off of internet hype and slapping around fat guys until the fights are stopped. Be my guest.

Therefore even if Holyfield does hit harder than VK, you can't use it as a measure of "above average", correct?

I'm not sure why people are splitting it into accomplishments and talent. As far as I'm concerned, accomplishments are clearly the most important thing in determining greatness, but talent is separate from skill. As heavyweights, I would say Holyfield is the least talented of the bunch, but has arguably the best accomplishments and skills.

On the other hand, Tyson, for me, is the most talented or naturally gifted, yet lacked defensive skills and has less impressive accomplishments than Lewis and Holyfield.

On the other topic - I don't think either Holyfield or Vitali have elite heavyweight power. Vitali is a MUCH bigger and stronger man and should punch considerably harder than Holy, but due to his throwing arm punches, I don't think there is actually much difference between the two in punching power. They both hurt Lewis about the same amount at stages in their fights, but on the other hand, Vitali has a far superior KO percentage. I think this is more to do with Vitali's size and poorer opposition than anything else.

1.Holyfield
2.Lewis (these two are close and I'm not going to argue how people slice it)
.
.
3.Tyson
4.Bowe

Chin and stamina - Holyfield
Agg - Tyson
Boxing per se - Lewis
Wasted talent - Bowe

dempseyfire wrote:All and all:

1) Holyfield

2) Lewis

3) Tyson

4) Bowe

That looks about right.

Bowe doesn't deserve to be mentioned with the other 3. Yes, he took 2 of 3 against Holyfield, but lets remember that Willie Meehan did quite well against Dempsey but I don't think they were in the same league.

Knucklez wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: COme on Saad, as much as you over-rate Holyfield, even you can't truly believe that drivel. Holyfield a harder puncher than Vitali Klitschko . . .that is truly ridiculous.

Absolutely, Vitali is the most overrated puncher in the history of the sport. If you want to feed off of internet hype and slapping around fat guys until the fights are stopped. Be my guest.

Therefore even if Holyfield does hit harder than VK, you can't use it as a measure of "above average", correct?

I wasn't using it as a measure of anything other than an example of how far opinions can vary. I find Holyfield being called an average puncher as ridiculous as people do when I question Vitali's power. For the record, I would rate Vit above average. People just rank him among the hardest punchers ever.

Agree that Vitali isn't a massive puncher. He tends to wear opponents down with repeat punching, rather than knocking them out with big single shots (for the most part).

Still don't quite understand why you think Holyfield is an above-average puncher though. A quick look down his heavyweight record shows that he has very few early stoppages - Buster Douglas being the obvious one. Most of his other victories were either late stoppages or points wins and therefore not the sign of an above average puncher, IMO.

Knucklez wrote:Agree that Vitali isn't a massive puncher. He tends to wear opponents down with repeat punching, rather than knocking them out with big single shots (for the most part).

Still don't quite understand why you think Holyfield is an above-average puncher though. A quick look down his heavyweight record shows that he has very few early stoppages - Buster Douglas being the obvious one. Most of his other victories were either late stoppages or points wins and therefore not the sign of an above average puncher, IMO.

He faced above average competition the majority of the time. A KO doesn't have to be early to demonstrate power. He was the first guy to floor Mercer & Bowe, he stopped Qawi like nobody else could, stopped Tyson, wobbled Foreman and to this day, near 50, is still dropping guys with one punch.

An average puncher is just that. I'd call Larry Donald & Sultan Ibragimov types averages punchers. I don't see how anyone can label Holyfield with them, but it is what it is.

Look at Ike Williams record. He was a tremendous puncher, but just rolling down the stats without looking at the names doesn't tell the whole story.