How about Jr. Welterweights Aaron Pryor vs Shane Mosley

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I'm not frustrated, you amuse me. I've never heard or read anyone agree with your take on Pryor in 30 years. You've shown absolutely nothing, like I said you're a slave to boxrec bios. If you could find 5 people on the earth that agreed with you I would be shocked. Did you ever watch Pryor's fights or read magazines at the time? It was widespread that he couldn't get a big fight at Lightweight so he moved up when the opportunity presented itself. Like I said, I'm amazed you've never come across that. Go ahead and look it up, you're 1000% wrong. Ask Aaron Pryor, he will tell you himself.

Shane would have been a big Jr Welter in aaron's day at any point in his career. He sucked a lot of weight to make 135. Pryor sucked none to fight at 140. I'm sorry if that difference is lost on you. How you get to a number is every bit as important as what it says in the paper.

Edit: You're dead wrong about Aaron's size, that doesn't mean he couldn't beat Shane. But I think the size and speed combined makes it a tough task.

[Diamond WEAPON]

Have you ever been wrong in your life? Just wondering if it's possible for you to acknowledge it. Because you're way off base in here. I love the way you ignore the difference between the extra day for the weigh ins like it means nothing.

Pryor was small for the weight class. You can go on and on for as long as you want but it will never change that fact. Mosley would have been the biggest 140lb fighter in the world by a large margin.

Duran wasn't any bigger than MAB. You have a real issue looking past the numbers next to the fighter on their boxrec page and looking at what was really there.

Edit: And Pryor didn't hit nearly as hard as Forrest, that's insanity.

Prime Duran was bigger than Barrera. Roberto was solid at 135, hence why he several frequent fights just above at 140 or 147. Barrera on the other hand wasn't a major drainer in his prime at 122, he was usually below 130 on fight night and even by the third Morales fight was just 132 come fight time. Morales would be a more apt comparison, as he shifted weight to the degree that when he was fully hydrated he was Duran's size.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Morales was taller, MAB and Duran are right about the same height with about the same reach. Roberto was a bit bigger, but the have the same dimensions. It was an intended exaggeration after reading that Pryor was thicker than Mosley, that still gets a laugh out of me. 24 hours to hydrate is absolutely huge.

I wish they would go back to the old system. Fighters were healthier and that makes fights better. Unfortunately it will never happen because 90% of the champions would have to vacate their belts and move up a class. That alone shows the dramatic difference.

[Ezzard]

Saad, you are right about this weigh in difference.

This and the move to 12 rounds has made the sport much more about speed and power. When I watch fights from the 50s, 60s and 70s you can see that it was much more about endurance and stamina.

I think the 80s was the decade in which things started to change.

The weigh in changes have changed the sport dramatically though. In our fantasy match-ups surely there’s no way Hopkins could have made middleweight.

I always thought Chris Eubank looked like the bigger man in all of his fights. He was a very strong man but obviously had stamina problems which is what we’d expect from someone drying out so quickly.

[Ambling Alp]

I'm not frustrated, you amuse me. I've never heard or read anyone agree with your take on Pryor in 30 years. You've shown absolutely nothing, like I said you're a slave to boxrec bios. If you could find 5 people on the earth that agreed with you I would be shocked. Did you ever watch Pryor's fights or read magazines at the time? It was widespread that he couldn't get a big fight at Lightweight so he moved up when the opportunity presented itself. Like I said, I'm amazed you've never come across that. Go ahead and look it up, you're 1000% wrong. Ask Aaron Pryor, he will tell you himself.

Shane would have been a big Jr Welter in aaron's day at any point in his career. He sucked a lot of weight to make 135. Pryor sucked none to fight at 140. I'm sorry if that difference is lost on you. How you get to a number is every bit as important as what it says in the paper.

Edit: You're dead wrong about Aaron's size, that doesn't mean he couldn't beat Shane. But I think the size and speed combined makes it a tough task.

You are dead wrong about Aaron Pryor moving up to Jr Welterweight.

He was a Jr Welterweight in his pro debut. That is a fact.
He only had one fight under 135 in his entire career. That is a fact.
He had 18 fights in which he was at atleast 140. Another 10 he was at 139. That is a fact.

He was no way shape or form a lightweight. He was a Jr Welterweight.
Yes I have seen Pryor fight several times. There was a lot of talk about Pryor moving up to welterweight. (He actually did in his comeback.)
He was much closer to being a welterweight than a lightweight.

It makes no sense for Pryor to have fought at 140 if he could have easily made 135. The Jr weight divisions were far less prestigious back then. Most guys only fought in them if they absolutely could not make the lower weight.

As for Mosley, I asked you before just when Mosley would be fighting at 140 and didn't get an answer.
If you think that the Mosley that fought at 147 would be able to get down to 140, then jump back up to 145-150 24 hours later and be in great shape, you are mistaken. Yes he would be the bigger man, but he would be slower and have less stamina than usual.
If he was smart, Mosley would gradually lose the weight to get down to 140. His weight would not jump up as much 24 hour later, (maybe only 145, probably close to what Pryor would be.) but he would be in better physical condition.

Ezz-A word about Hopkins. I think he could have made 160 and not have the extra 24 hours and been fine until the end of his career. He would have had to do it in a smart way. Archie Moore used to weigh over 200 pounds between lightheavyweight fights and get down to 175 without the extra time. It can be done. In Archie's case lightheavyweight is where he really belonged. Middleweight is where Hopkins belonged.
And across the board, I don't think the sport is any more about speed and power than it ever was.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

You're one giant semantic, just because a guy is fighting at 136 doesn't mean he is a Jr Welterweight. pryor was looking for a Lightweight title fight and he couldn't get one. When the shot at cervantes came, he took it. None of that changes the fact that he was a very small jr welterweight to everyone in the history of the world except for you. LMAO at him being closer to a Welter than a Lightweight. You make this stuff up as you go along. Aaron Pryor would laugh in your face.

You did get an answer on Shane, like usual you just skimmed over it and said your question was never addressed. I don't know why you do that in every debate. At any point in Mosley's Lightweight career he would have struggled to make 140 in Aaron's day. Shane would have never been a Lightweight champion with same day weigh ins and most certainly could never have made 140 when he was a Welterweight.

Now you're just switching the discussion like you always do. I didn't propose the fight or the time frame. all I said was Shane Mosley was significantly bigger than Pryor, and that isn't debatable. He was bigger than Pryor ever was for his pro debut. Any of these fights have to be looked at with the fighters under the rules of their day. With day before weigh ins, Pryor could have easily made 130 if it was worth it to him. He never cut a pound in his career. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it makes you small in your weight class to anyone with common sense.

[elmersalsa]

Pryor wins this fight. Mosley was good, but he gets hit too much. Pryor by UD.

[Idisagree]

Shane Mosley


Aaron Pryor


Judge for yourself.

[Ambling Alp]

You're one giant semantic, just because a guy is fighting at 136 doesn't mean he is a Jr Welterweight. pryor was looking for a Lightweight title fight and he couldn't get one. When the shot at cervantes came, he took it. None of that changes the fact that he was a very small jr welterweight to everyone in the history of the world except for you. LMAO at him being closer to a Welter than a Lightweight. You make this stuff up as you go along. Aaron Pryor would laugh in your face.

You did get an answer on Shane, like usual you just skimmed over it and said your question was never addressed. I don't know why you do that in every debate. At any point in Mosley's Lightweight career he would have struggled to make 140 in Aaron's day. Shane would have never been a Lightweight champion with same day weigh ins and most certainly could never have made 140 when he was a Welterweight.

Now you're just switching the discussion like you always do. I didn't propose the fight or the time frame. all I said was Shane Mosley was significantly bigger than Pryor, and that isn't debatable. He was bigger than Pryor ever was for his pro debut. Any of these fights have to be looked at with the fighters under the rules of their day. With day before weigh ins, Pryor could have easily made 130 if it was worth it to him. He never cut a pound in his career. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it makes you small in your weight class to anyone with common sense.

I did not say that you proposed a time frame. I asked that you would, so that we would have a better idea of what version of Mosley you are talking about. You did not read what I said very carefully.
I resent the idea that I am making up things as I go along. I actually think about topics before I talk about them, which is one reason I don't make 10 posts a day.
I resent that I change the subject. I think just about anyone here will aknowledge that I make an effort to respond to their points, whether or not they often agree with me or not.
I will just say that I disagree with just about everything else you have said and will leave it at that.

[Ezzard]

Ezz-A word about Hopkins. I think he could have made 160 and not have the extra 24 hours and been fine until the end of his career. He would have had to do it in a smart way. Archie Moore used to weigh over 200 pounds between lightheavyweight fights and get down to 175 without the extra time. It can be done. In Archie's case lightheavyweight is where he really belonged. Middleweight is where Hopkins belonged.
And across the board, I don't think the sport is any more about speed and power than it ever was.

It's just too much of a coincidence for me to agree.

Going by Boxrec (all I have)

Hopkins is the tallest Middle in Boxrec's all-time top 50. Look at Light-Heavy, take out Foster and Spinks, and he's the tallest (along with Maxim). This isn't scientific or conclusive but it is indicative.

Compare Hopkins with Hearns and Williams, who are similarly tall. Hopkins really doesn't look like a string-bean. He looks in proportion. Archie Moore was a special case not one I'd use as evidence.

I say, with as much certainty as you can, that Hopkins would not have been able to compete at 160 back in the 1970s (or the same say weigh in era). In the 1950s he'd have been a Light-Heavy.

Moving to 12 rounds most definitely gave an advantage to speed and power over stamina. That bit is self-evident. Look at those pics of Pryor and Mosely...

I believe in most fantasy fight scenarios you have to match the boxers of today one or even two divisions higher to get a real idea of how their sizes would effect the fight.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

You're one giant semantic, just because a guy is fighting at 136 doesn't mean he is a Jr Welterweight. pryor was looking for a Lightweight title fight and he couldn't get one. When the shot at cervantes came, he took it. None of that changes the fact that he was a very small jr welterweight to everyone in the history of the world except for you. LMAO at him being closer to a Welter than a Lightweight. You make this stuff up as you go along. Aaron Pryor would laugh in your face.

You did get an answer on Shane, like usual you just skimmed over it and said your question was never addressed. I don't know why you do that in every debate. At any point in Mosley's Lightweight career he would have struggled to make 140 in Aaron's day. Shane would have never been a Lightweight champion with same day weigh ins and most certainly could never have made 140 when he was a Welterweight.

Now you're just switching the discussion like you always do. I didn't propose the fight or the time frame. all I said was Shane Mosley was significantly bigger than Pryor, and that isn't debatable. He was bigger than Pryor ever was for his pro debut. Any of these fights have to be looked at with the fighters under the rules of their day. With day before weigh ins, Pryor could have easily made 130 if it was worth it to him. He never cut a pound in his career. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it makes you small in your weight class to anyone with common sense.

I did not say that you proposed a time frame. I asked that you would, so that we would have a better idea of what version of Mosley you are talking about. You did not read what I said very carefully.
I resent the idea that I am making up things as I go along. I actually think about topics before I talk about them, which is one reason I don't make 10 posts a day.
I resent that I change the subject. I think just about anyone here will aknowledge that I make an effort to respond to their points, whether or not they often agree with me or not.
I will just say that I disagree with just about everything else you have said and will leave it at that.

You have every right to be wrong.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Ezz-A word about Hopkins. I think he could have made 160 and not have the extra 24 hours and been fine until the end of his career. He would have had to do it in a smart way. Archie Moore used to weigh over 200 pounds between lightheavyweight fights and get down to 175 without the extra time. It can be done. In Archie's case lightheavyweight is where he really belonged. Middleweight is where Hopkins belonged.
And across the board, I don't think the sport is any more about speed and power than it ever was.

It's just too much of a coincidence for me to agree.

Going by Boxrec (all I have)

Hopkins is the tallest Middle in Boxrec's all-time top 50. Look at Light-Heavy, take out Foster and Spinks, and he's the tallest (along with Maxim). This isn't scientific or conclusive but it is indicative.

Compare Hopkins with Hearns and Williams, who are similarly tall. Hopkins really doesn't look like a string-bean. He looks in proportion. Archie Moore was a special case not one I'd use as evidence.

I say, with as much certainty as you can, that Hopkins would not have been able to compete at 160 back in the 1970s (or the same say weigh in era). In the 1950s he'd have been a Light-Heavy.

Moving to 12 rounds most definitely gave an advantage to speed and power over stamina. That bit is self-evident. Look at those pics of Pryor and Mosely...

I believe in most fantasy fight scenarios you have to match the boxers of today one or even two divisions higher to get a real idea of how their sizes would effect the fight.

He wouldn't dare look at those pictures. Pryor was thicker than Mosley because Ambling Alp said so.

[Ezzard]

I watched Pryor-Arguello, Foster-Finnegan, Monzon-Griffith and Hagler-Duran with some sports fans (casual boxing fans) and they all said that boxers back then seemed built for endurance.

These guys are all tri-atheletes and so have some insight.

[Ambling Alp]

I agree that they wee bult for endurance. I just don't see an acroos the board change starting in the 1980s as you suggested.

As for physiques, well I'm sorry but those pictures of Pryor and Mosley don't prove much. Put an up close picture of Pryor up next to a distant shot of Mosley and Pryor will look bigger. Not to mention when that picture was taken. He certainly looks older, well after Mosley was a lightweight.

I think the scales tell us more than listening to someone who thinks Duran and Barrera were the same size who also thinks that Aaron Pryor walked around at exactly 140 everyday between fights.

As I have said before, under current rules Mosley would probably come in at 148-150. Pryor would come in at a well conditioned 144-145.

As for Hopkins, well we can speculate. He always looked skinny to me, though not as skinny as Hearns. I think he could get down to 160 rather than try to fight at 175 but I guess we will never know.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

We've already established that you have no idea what you're talking about. Your best post on the matter was when you said you were done talking about it. You're just real ignorant to what cutting weight details. But that isn't a crime, it's a shame you have no desire to learn.

[Idisagree]

I agree that they wee bult for endurance. I just don't see an acroos the board change starting in the 1980s as you suggested.

As for physiques, well I'm sorry but those pictures of Pryor and Mosley don't prove much. Put an up close picture of Pryor up next to a distant shot of Mosley and Pryor will look bigger. Not to mention when that picture was taken. He certainly looks older, well after Mosley was a lightweight.

I think the scales tell us more than listening to someone who thinks Duran and Barrera were the same size who also thinks that Aaron Pryor walked around at exactly 140 everyday between fights.

As I have said before, under current rules Mosley would probably come in at 148-150. Pryor would come in at a well conditioned 144-145.

As for Hopkins, well we can speculate. He always looked skinny to me, though not as skinny as Hearns. I think he could get down to 160 rather than try to fight at 175 but I guess we will never know.

Sorry Alp but I don't believe that all. For me a well conditioned Pryor would have to be around the 138 -140 mark. Anything after he would not be well conditioned. Pryor was not a big jr.welter and I do believe that he could have fought just as easily at 135 back in those days.

[Ambling Alp]

If he could have easily made 135 (under the rules of his day) he would have. The Jr divisions were much less presitigous back then. (Still are to some extent.) Only fighters who could not make the weight below that fought in them for any length of time. Fighters go where the money and fame is if possible.

Had Pryor been able to make 135 easily he would have done so early in his career. He could have beaten some lightweights, been the #1 contender and would have got a mandatory title shot for the lightweight championship. He would have made more money and got more exposure.
Instead he fought above 135. He did that because 140 was a lot more natural for him than 135.

He certainly didn't weigh only 140 between fights.
If he didn't have his drug problems he probably would have eventually moved up to welterweight. There was plenty of talk of him moving up to fight Leonard in the early 1980s.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

If he could have easily made 135 (under the rules of his day) he would have. The Jr divisions were much less presitigous back then. (Still are to some extent.) Only fighters who could not make the weight below that fought in them for any length of time. Fighters go where the money and fame is if possible.

Had Pryor been able to make 135 easily he would have done so early in his career. He could have beaten some lightweights, been the #1 contender and would have got a mandatory title shot for the lightweight championship. He would have made more money and got more exposure.
Instead he fought above 135. He did that because 140 was a lot more natural for him than 135.

He certainly didn't weigh only 140 between fights.
If he didn't have his drug problems he probably would have eventually moved up to welterweight. There was plenty of talk of him moving up to fight Leonard in the early 1980s.

And you're offended that I 'accused' you of making things up?

He couldn't get a contender at 135 to fight him and the opportunity came at 140. You can ignore it in your stubborn fantasy for as long as you want to. That's exactly what happened and he was an undersized Jr Welterweight. Nobody has ever been more wrong about anything than you are in here.

Gatti & gamache weighed in the same, I'm sure they were the same size to you.

[CrunchTime]

How about Mosley vs Pryor at 140. Who wins and how?

Under normal conditions I'll call it a toss-up, maybe a slight edge to Mosley. If Pryor gets to use the "little black bottle" he used late in the Arguello fight, Aaron would be a clear winner.