BoxRec

It's the most over-rated & under-thought maxim in modern Boxing history...

"Evander had Mike's number. He wasn't intimidated & would always have been inside his head & beaten him."

Holyfield's chances would be better than Lewis', though. I'll give him that much.

Hey GI....why turn common sense into some sort of goofy spin?

Holyfield has turned out over the course of many years to possess a tenacity seldom seen in the sport of boxing, and Tyson's psyche' had all the integrity of an Alka Seltzer dropped in water, once he faced his first genuine manifest adversity.
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Tyson's "number" does not look all that difficult to ascertain in hindsight. He did fine as long as he was perceived by others and he himself perceived himself to be invincible, and it all went south when he lost faith in himself. That's not to say his skillset under Holyfield's generalship would not create perhaps an improved overall fighter. But Tyson's weakness was his weakness. A simple case of "it is what it is".

Your characterization seems shallow this time out.

Tyson would smash Douglas, Douglas mother cannot die twice, and Douglas cannot reproduce those performances twice. Holyfield probably has Tysons measure.

Lewis I remain unconvinced. A prime Tyson would beat the 1999 Holyfield that Lewis faced. Holyfield was slipping he went life and death with Ruiz straight after this fight.

Holyfield has the credit in the bank the Bowe and Tyson and Foreman that he beat were better than anyone Lewis beat.

If Tyson catches Lewis he will finish him. Its interesting.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:It's the most over-rated & under-thought maxim in modern Boxing history...

"Evander had Mike's number. He wasn't intimidated & would always have been inside his head & beaten him."

Holyfield's chances would be better than Lewis', though. I'll give him that much.

I find the "prime" Tyson would fare much better against the shot guy who completely dominated him theory to be far more overrated. There was nothing close about Holyfield/Tyson, a man against a boy. That wouldn't have changed. Evander was stronger than him and Mike knew it, even if you can't accept it.

Relax, Saad --- it's all just opinions.

You may find Tyson beating Holyfield (in spite of the fact Tyson did most things better than Holyfield ever did as a HW) as implausible as a clubfighter beating an all-time great, but that doesn't make it so.

One look at Holyfield-Cooper reminds me how close to being Superman Holyfield really was.

dempseyfire wrote:Douglas already beat Tyson in his prime.

I'd strongly favor Holyfield over Tyson.
-For their 1996 fight Holyfield was maybe at 75%, Tyson 65%, but even making them even, look at how one-sided the fight was. Prime for prime it would have been more competitive early but Evander still dominates the later rounds.

Lewis I'd give a slight edge to prime for prime, like 55-45. He had the style to give Mike fits and also the perfect power punch (the uppercut) to put Mike somewhat in a shell. At the same-time, Tyson's FOOTSPEED (the big X factor why he was such an inferior fighter post-prison) and explosiveness would've also caused Lennox stylistic nightmares, and I think Lennox's natural timidity vs guys he viewed as a threat (just watch the McCall rematch debacle or both Holyfield fights) would cause him to lose rounds he otherwise should be winning.

An excellent analysis.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Relax, Saad --- it's all just opinions.

You may find Tyson beating Holyfield (in spite of the fact Tyson did most things better than Holyfield ever did as a HW) as implausible as a clubfighter beating an all-time great, but that doesn't make it so.

One look at Holyfield-Cooper reminds me how close to being Superman Holyfield really was.

One look at Holyfield/Cooper shows how much trouble Tyson would be in had he been in Atlanta that night.

Tyson had more power than Holyfield, that's his only clear advantage. I'm not sure what makes you think I'm uptight, I just think you're unequivocally wrong. They fought, I'm comfortable with the result.

They did fight, but both men had plainly seen better days. There's no way I'm going to discredit Holyfield for the win, or anything of the sort, but they'd both seen better days --- it is what it is.

Tyson's only clear advantage is power? Well, like you say, we will find no common ground on this one. At least the majority is in your corner, however thoughtlessly I believe many of them (certainly, not you among them) arrived there.

Oh, & the Cooper comment was partly tongue-in-cheek --- it tends to wind some Holyfield supporters up a bit. Of these three, I give Holyfield the best chance to beat the peak Tyson.

No question they were past it, but some drastic style advantages would be there whenever they fought. And none of them would be in Mike's favor. Tyson's style never changed, it's effectiveness did. Evander would stop him from coming forward at any point. That's more than half the battle.

The Great John L wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:However that fight is very relevant. Tyson was closer to his prime than Holyfield. He was four years younger (30 and 34) and had less wear and tear. Holyfield was something like 80% of his best and beat Tyson who was something like 90% of his best. It stands to reason that if they were both at their absolute best, Holyfield would have won even easier.

You do know that Tyson spent a number of years in jail and was a notorious partier, right? I'm a firm believer that Tyson was still prime, albeit ill-prepared, when he lost to Douglas, but by the time he was released from prison his skills and desire had eroded significantly. OTOH, Holyfield was generally regarded as somewhat of a gym rat, and didn't spend any time in jail.

I still think Holyfield would have been a very tough fight for a prime Tyson, but to say that the post prison Tyson was 90% of what he was in his prime just doesn't seem reasonable.

I have disagree. His 2nd fight against Bruno was one of the best of his career. Holyfield looked shot for much against Bowe in their third fight and looked bad earlier against Moorer. He had declined considerably since his prime. He was 34 year old with a lot of wear and tear.

Yes Holyfield probably trained harder (who knows) but that was probably always the case. Tyson was probably "partying" just as much as much if not more in his 20's as he did at the age of 30. I think Tyson had just as much desire as he ever did. He wanted to be regarded as one of the greats and knew he had to beat some big names to do that.

You have to back to the time when they actaully fought.

Douglas KO10 Tyson - Douglas was sublime this night, I'm not at all confident that a 100% fit and ready Tyson would have beaten him so I'll go with what actually happened.

Holyfield TKO12 Tyson - Holyfield down once and up 7 rounds to 4 at the time of stoppage.

Lewis TKO8 Tyson - Tyson has a very good shot of knocking Lewis out in the early rounds, but I think a prime Lennox wins this most of the time, leading 5 rounds to 2 at the time of stoppage.

Ambling Alp wrote:

The Great John L wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote:However that fight is very relevant. Tyson was closer to his prime than Holyfield. He was four years younger (30 and 34) and had less wear and tear. Holyfield was something like 80% of his best and beat Tyson who was something like 90% of his best. It stands to reason that if they were both at their absolute best, Holyfield would have won even easier.

You do know that Tyson spent a number of years in jail and was a notorious partier, right? I'm a firm believer that Tyson was still prime, albeit ill-prepared, when he lost to Douglas, but by the time he was released from prison his skills and desire had eroded significantly. OTOH, Holyfield was generally regarded as somewhat of a gym rat, and didn't spend any time in jail.

I still think Holyfield would have been a very tough fight for a prime Tyson, but to say that the post prison Tyson was 90% of what he was in his prime just doesn't seem reasonable.

I have disagree. His 2nd fight against Bruno was one of the best of his career. Holyfield looked shot for much against Bowe in their third fight and looked bad earlier against Moorer. He had declined considerably since his prime. He was 34 year old with a lot of wear and tear.

Yes Holyfield probably trained harder (who knows) but that was probably always the case. Tyson was probably "partying" just as much as much if not more in his 20's as he did at the age of 30. I think Tyson had just as much desire as he ever did. He wanted to be regarded as one of the greats and knew he had to beat some big names to do that.

You have to back to the time when they actaully fought.

Wrong! Bruno was scared stiff of Tyson, because of the beating he took in there first fight.
Tyson was no where near as good post jail.

To answer the op question, I would say a 1988 Tyson beats all three, with Lewis being the hardest challenge.
As for the people that think EH would of beat Tyson, I can't see it. The speed of Tyson would get EH out in the first half of the fight. And if it didn't, I could see Tyson holding out for a decision win.

I guess we will have to disagree about that. I thought Bruno fought better than he usually did.
It is interesting that so many people were saying that Tyson was back like his former self, until he had to fight a way past it Holyfield.
Then all of a sudden he was way past it.
Very convenient.

Ambling Alp wrote:I guess we will have to disagree about that. I thought Bruno fought better than he usually did.
It is interesting that so many people were saying that Tyson was back like his former self, until he had to fight a way past it Holyfield.
Then all of a sudden he was way past it.
Very convenient.

You could clearly see that Tyson was past it v Holyfield! He was much slower on his feet, and he never threw combos like he used to. As for Holyfield, he looked like his old self in that fight.

I agree that Bruno was better in 95 then 89, but he still froze up in that 2nd fight.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:He could never beat Evander and I don't think he could beat the Douglas he faced in Tokyo. Lewis is a 50/50 fight for me. I thought Lennox was a bit intimidated against the shadow of Mike for a round and a half. If he came out like that against a prime version he would be in trouble.

If you know anything about Lewis then surely it is that when he is genuinely respectful of an opponent, as he would have been with Tyson, he prepares superbly and fights in the style needed to win.

yiddo14 wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:He could never beat Evander and I don't think he could beat the Douglas he faced in Tokyo. Lewis is a 50/50 fight for me. I thought Lennox was a bit intimidated against the shadow of Mike for a round and a half. If he came out like that against a prime version he would be in trouble.

If you know anything about Lewis then surely it is that when he is genuinely respectful of an opponent, as he would have been with Tyson, he prepares superbly and fights in the style needed to win.

Must admit, I got a chuckle from that myself

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Must admit, I got a chuckle from that myself

That makes him pretty unbeatable. I imagine if he set his mind to it he could whip Liston, Foreman, Tyson, Holyfield, Ali, Louis & Frazier in a week.

Well, he did beat every man he ever faced, you know (the slogan of all Lewis fanatics)...

It's a shame he wasn't focused twice. And it's a bit odd that Holyfield improved so dramatically in their rematch. I wonder why Lennox wasn't as superbly prepared as he was in the initial encounter.

I've already posted my verdict on each of the fights.

I'm sure Lewis took Holyfield very seriously and prepared well for both fights. His performance in both fights was, for me, disappointing, but enough for a clear points win in the first encounter, and a close one in the second. What changed is that Holyfield put in a much improved performance in their second fight, which I think took Lewis somewhat by surprise. The second Lewis fight is truly Evander's last great performance in boxing, although he was clearly well past his best.

However, I don't buy into the "an old, past-it Holyfield 'beat' a prime Lewis in their second fight, so a prime Holyfield would beat him easily" argument. I think it's important to note that while in his prime years, Lewis did not perform to the best of his ability in either fight - he was much too tentative. For mine a more aggressively minded Lewis knocks out an old Holyfield and wins at least 1 out of 2 fights in a primes matchup.

I wasn't implying he would have had an easy time with Lennox. I think Lennox fought perfectly against Evander. If he opened up more, he would have been countered more. Whenever he did really go after Holyfield, he got the worst of it. He would never knock him out. I'd be more in the 70/30 Holyfield camp in a prime vs prime fight, but Lewis would always be a problem.

I think that's right. I give Holy a 60-40 edge prime for prime versus Lewis, with the caveat that Lewis was usually more consistent (though when Lennox had a bad day it was catastrophic)

Telling

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Telling

Almost as telling as it is convenient