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Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 09:25
by palooka
The last time I can remember a boxer not bothering to make the weight with the bout going ahead there was a bad knockout; Corrales v Castillo 2.
Alverez has every possible advantage and then snatched another one. They may make Matthew (who would be really up against it on a level field) tie his boot laces together and give him an extra 10 grand.
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 09:27
by Finn
simon fox wrote:The last time I can remember a boxer not bothering to make the weight with the bout going ahead there was a bad knockout; Corrales v Castillo 2.
Alverez has every possible advantage and then snatched another one. They may make Matthew (who would be really up against it on a level field) tie his boot laces together and give him an extra 10 grand.
PBF did the same against JMM, its a joke.
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 09:31
by Scottrf
King Geedorah wrote:If Alvarez was desperately struggling at the weight he wouldn't have been able to trim 2oz, let alone 4. It is a game.
If it was never his intention, why not come in at 154? It's likely that if he was so hard at the weight, 152 would have been impossible, and his re-weigh-in just a few oz lower suggests either that's his exact minimum or he didn't try the second time. Just can't see the logic in paying $70k to play mind games with an opponent he must be pretty certain he will beat.
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 09:34
by RLewis
To be fair to Alvarez, he looked completely dry at the weigh in and was late for the original one because he was at the gym trying to get it off. He got 7oz off in 90 minutes, not a lot unless there is nothing left to come. It was blisteringly hot by the scales too.
The Spanish-language press were saying that he belived it was up to 11st when it was made for the WBC title, which for the circumstances of the title is true, although the contract was separate.
And he has lost $70,000, not insignificant to a young man.
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 09:40
by palooka
Who's to say that the 70 grand is to be paid by Alverez?
A highlight reel knockout will advance his career on HBO and help propel him to PPV; then everyone wins!
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 09:54
by MightyWarrior
Don't think Alvarez will be too worried about mind games here; he looks levels above Hatton and will be rightly confident he's going to do a number on him. Probably not too bothered about 70K - the added weight gives him a comfortable run up to the fight: no saunas and long runs, and he's going to be making MAJOR bucks in his next few fights as Oscar's new golden boy and "world champion".
Nothing fair about this, even though the Mexican looks like the type of talent that doesn't need all these advantages.
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 10:01
by tobyh5
Scottrf wrote:What if he's trying to build muscle? To say he's lazy because in your experience you 'could' (which presumably means you aren't) get to the same weigh is very ignorant, so is presuming everyone develops physically in the same way. How much do you actually know about the guy?
Presumably means I am not as you said because I am not. But I will be in July when I next blow the opposition off the stage and take another trophy home.
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 11:14
by Deserter
tobyh5 wrote:Scottrf wrote:What if he's trying to build muscle? To say he's lazy because in your experience you 'could' (which presumably means you aren't) get to the same weigh is very ignorant, so is presuming everyone develops physically in the same way. How much do you actually know about the guy?
Presumably means I am not as you said because I am not. But I will be in July when I next blow the opposition off the stage and take another trophy home.
Regardless of Toby's specific background I'm 100% with him here on this issue of Alvarez making weight. Whether it's bodybuilders or wrestlers, there are other 'professions' that are incredibly focused on making weight and their expertise at 'cutting' is unparalleled.
We can argue the toss about how effective Alvarez would be if he cut down to the predetermined weight, but there's no substance to the argument that he couldn't make it full stop.
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 11:31
by Scottrf
Deserter wrote:Regardless of Toby's specific background I'm 100% with him here on this issue of Alvarez making weight. Whether it's bodybuilders or wrestlers, there are other 'professions' that are incredibly focused on making weight and their expertise at 'cutting' is unparalleled.
We can argue the toss about how effective Alvarez would be if he cut down to the predetermined weight, but there's no substance to the argument that he couldn't make it full stop.
Of course there is if we consider he perhaps isn't fully grown at 20. Otherwise you'd be able to say he should be able to make 100 lbs because he was at that weight at 12. If you also consider he might be trying to add muscle, to get back down to the weight he once was he'd have to burn off muscle. The argument only adds up if the only weight he was put on since is fat.
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 11:39
by orbtastic
I think it's reasonable to assume that if he genuinely couldn't make 152 then he wouldn't have readily agreed to not weigh over 160 on fight-night. No way would Hatton go all the way out there and call it off just for this and risk what, no purse at all? Or at least, reduced purse.
On that basis, I think they're just a. fing with him b. creating PR/buzz/hype.
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 11:56
by Deserter
Scottrf wrote:Deserter wrote:Regardless of Toby's specific background I'm 100% with him here on this issue of Alvarez making weight. Whether it's bodybuilders or wrestlers, there are other 'professions' that are incredibly focused on making weight and their expertise at 'cutting' is unparalleled.
We can argue the toss about how effective Alvarez would be if he cut down to the predetermined weight, but there's no substance to the argument that he couldn't make it full stop.
Of course there is if we consider he perhaps isn't fully grown at 20. Otherwise you'd be able to say he should be able to make 100 lbs because he was at that weight at 12. If you also consider he might be trying to add muscle, to get back down to the weight he once was he'd have to burn off muscle. The argument only adds up if the only weight he was put on since is fat.
Extrapolating out to an implausible extremity doesn't add validity to your case. We'll just have to agree to disagree, but judged in the context of the weight he had to make (and has made) and the amount of 'cutting' that entails, I'm in absolutely no doubt that he could have made it irrespective of his 'organic growth'.
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 12:07
by Scottrf
Deserter wrote:Extrapolating out to an implausible extremity doesn't add validity to your case. We'll just have to agree to disagree, but judged in the context of the weight he had to make (and has made) and the amount of 'cutting' that entails, I'm in absolutely no doubt that he could have made it irrespective of his 'organic growth'.
Of course it does, because my argument was that he
may not be a fully grown adult. What is also important is what weight he has put on; is it fat or muscle, has his frame grown? He's hardly going to be able to lose muscle to lose a few pounds.
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 12:21
by palooka
To me Alverez and his team have grabbed another advantage and stretched their muscles; they have the strong hand and have shown it.
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 13:03
by Jon Saxon
Deserter wrote:tobyh5 wrote:Scottrf wrote:What if he's trying to build muscle? To say he's lazy because in your experience you 'could' (which presumably means you aren't) get to the same weigh is very ignorant, so is presuming everyone develops physically in the same way. How much do you actually know about the guy?
Presumably means I am not as you said because I am not. But I will be in July when I next blow the opposition off the stage and take another trophy home.
Regardless of Toby's specific background I'm 100% with him here on this issue of Alvarez making weight. Whether it's bodybuilders or wrestlers, there are other 'professions' that are incredibly focused on making weight and their expertise at 'cutting' is unparalleled.
We can argue the toss about how effective Alvarez would be if he cut down to the predetermined weight, but there's no substance to the argument that he couldn't make it full stop.
Well I'm not with any of you and I know what I'm talking about because i used to own a gym that was used mostly by body builders and I also used to go to my own boxing gym every week, so I can tell you this...
Sure anyone can make the weight BUT body builders arent doing any fighting and therein lies the crucial differance
On the night of a show you could push most of them over with your pinky they are so dried out.
At 20 years of age your body (and more importantly 'muscle') mass hasnt yet reached it's peak, so If our body builder friend thinks that all fighters can make he same weight that they did as kids and fight safetly he's wrong...potentially DEAD wrong.
End of.
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 13:12
by dbflex
McCannW14 wrote:dbflex wrote:bynino wrote:So they are going to pull the plug then? if he isnt 160? i think its a robbery. Hatton should have won the title on the scales. Why even have the catch weight. Just put it at 154. I dont even think alvarez even intended on making 150. So why even bother contracting at that! its for a light middle title so have the bloody fight at 154.
Haha rant over
Fight was made at 150 BEFORE title tag was added
OK, so now they ARE fighting for the title it should be at 154.
Personally I dont think Hatton should be fighting for any kind of world title.
So you sign a contract for a fight at 10ost 10lbs then three weeks before the fight you are told the limit had changed to 11st, having done seven weeks' training geared towards 10/10. Would that be fair? If WBC had said, 'We are adding our title to your fight but only if you agree a new limit of 11st,' Hatton would have walked away.
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 13:14
by dbflex
bynino wrote:I don't think he was even going to make 150. So he is not weight drained at all. It took him 2 hours to lose 8oz. Doesnt sound like someone really busting a gut does it
It was actually 90 mins and you can minus 20 for driving to his gym and back.
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 13:18
by freddydoesdallas
What time (UK) is the next weigh in?
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 13:22
by dbflex
freddydoesdallas wrote:What time (UK) is the next weigh in?
11pm, but it'll be at the venue and likely behind closed doors. We should find out at ringside around midnight when the first fight starts
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 13:34
by palooka
Jon Saxon wrote:Deserter wrote:tobyh5 wrote:
Presumably means I am not as you said because I am not. But I will be in July when I next blow the opposition off the stage and take another trophy home.
Regardless of Toby's specific background I'm 100% with him here on this issue of Alvarez making weight. Whether it's bodybuilders or wrestlers, there are other 'professions' that are incredibly focused on making weight and their expertise at 'cutting' is unparalleled.
We can argue the toss about how effective Alvarez would be if he cut down to the predetermined weight, but there's no substance to the argument that he couldn't make it full stop.
Well I'm not with any of you and I know what I'm talking about because i used to own a gym that was used mostly by body builders and I also used to go to my own boxing gym every week, so I can tell you this...
Sure anyone can make the weight BUT body builders arent doing any fighting and therein lies the crucial differance
On the night of a show you could push most of them over with your pinky they are so dried out.
At 20 years of age your body (and more importantly 'muscle') mass hasnt yet reached it's peak, so If our body builder friend thinks that all fighters can make he same weight that they did as kids and fight safetly he's wrong...potentially DEAD wrong.
End of.
I tip my hat to your far greater knowledge and experience; but; (you knew there'd be a 'but') what about Hopkins, Micky Ward etc who fought on at after years and years at the same weight.
I am aware that Alvarez is a young and growing man. In this instance though it looks like shady practice (and this behaviour was predicted on this site a few days ago).
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 13:38
by freddydoesdallas
dbflex wrote:freddydoesdallas wrote:What time (UK) is the next weigh in?
11pm, but it'll be at the venue and likely behind closed doors. We should find out at ringside around midnight when the first fight starts
cheers
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 13:41
by whiskey
Body builder don't hit their muscle peak til their 30's generally (Dorian and Ronnie).
Some of them are so weak and feeble they collapse on stage or die shortly afterwards, their fat level is so low and their water levels are so dry.
Only a fool would compare body building with an explosive sport like boxing.
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 13:51
by bynino
I think alvarez could easily have made 150. It was just a case of...listen its going to cost you 75k for a guaranteed win. Because hatton will never be able to knock him over even at 150. And as was pointed out before, a brutal KO looks good for the golden boy highlight reel. You should have made the limit 154 when there was a title on the line. And if the guy doesnt make the weight then the title should go to the other fella who has. Because the weigh in is part of the fight. I know it makes no difference here cos alvarez was inside the 154 limit. But you know what I mean :)
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 13:55
by Kilburn
MightyWarrior wrote:Can't remember which fight it was, but recall Saul getting caught and hurt in one of his break through fights, and the way he negotiated that and came back to win was very impressive.
I think that was the JM Cotto fight, Alvarez did recover very quickly.
I also recall a comical hard right hand from Carlos Baldomir which seemed to spin his head around 180 degrees. Didn't phase him.
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 13:57
by dbflex
G0mez wrote:Body builder don't hit their muscle peak til their 30's generally (Dorian and Ronnie).
Some of them are so weak and feeble they collapse on stage or die shortly afterwards, their fat level is so low and their water levels are so dry.
Only a fool would compare body building with an explosive sport like boxing.
I pity that fool
Re: Hatton v Alvarez almost called off
Posted: 05 Mar 2011, 16:29
by MightyWarrior
Kilburn wrote:MightyWarrior wrote:Can't remember which fight it was, but recall Saul getting caught and hurt in one of his break through fights, and the way he negotiated that and came back to win was very impressive.
I think that was the JM Cotto fight, Alvarez did recover very quickly.
I also recall a comical hard right hand from Carlos Baldomir which seemed to spin his head around 180 degrees. Didn't phase him.
Yep think you're right
