BoxRec

Syntax Error wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

SUGARRAYSMELEE wrote:Lets not forget Ali went 11 rounds with a broken jaw against Norton, that is quite a feat.

It has never been properly established when that injury occurred, in truth.

Never properly established by whom?

Other than Ali's say so, how else could it be established?

Why would Ali wince in pain every time Norton hit him on the jaw from about round 2 onwards?

Ali has nothing to gain by pretending to wince during a fight with one of his biggest foes.

It's clear to see that something is wrong with Ali's jaw from early on in that fight.

Agreed that Ali wouldn't fake an injury. But Norton certainly wasn't one of his biggest foes when that fight happened. He was a nobody that Ali thought he would breeze past.

I really can't answer the actual question posed. They were both as tough as it gets. While Frazier is more the epitome of tough. Ali could take anything thrown his way. Yup it's a cop out, but it's a draw for me.

Syntax Error wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

SUGARRAYSMELEE wrote:Lets not forget Ali went 11 rounds with a broken jaw against Norton, that is quite a feat.

It has never been properly established when that injury occurred, in truth.

Never properly established by whom?

Other than Ali's say so, how else could it be established?

Why would Ali wince in pain every time Norton hit him on the jaw from about round 2 onwards?

Ali has nothing to gain by pretending to wince during a fight with one of his biggest foes.

It's clear to see that something is wrong with Ali's jaw from early on in that fight.

Why is Ali quite active in some of those later rounds if, as he claimed, each punch he threw caused a reverberating pain through his teeth & lower jaw?

It is pure conjecture to say it was broken in round one two, or any other round, for that matter.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote: It has never been properly established when that injury occurred, in truth.

Never properly established by whom?

Other than Ali's say so, how else could it be established?

Why would Ali wince in pain every time Norton hit him on the jaw from about round 2 onwards?

Ali has nothing to gain by pretending to wince during a fight with one of his biggest foes.

It's clear to see that something is wrong with Ali's jaw from early on in that fight.

Why is Ali quite active in some of those later rounds if, as he claimed, each punch he threw caused a reverberating pain through his teeth & lower jaw?

It is pure conjecture to say it was broken in round one two, or any other round, for that matter.

Because he is Muhammad Ali. Someone with tremendous will power and heart.

SUGARRAYSMELEE wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Syntax Error wrote: Never properly established by whom?

Other than Ali's say so, how else could it be established?

Why would Ali wince in pain every time Norton hit him on the jaw from about round 2 onwards?

Ali has nothing to gain by pretending to wince during a fight with one of his biggest foes.

It's clear to see that something is wrong with Ali's jaw from early on in that fight.

Why is Ali quite active in some of those later rounds if, as he claimed, each punch he threw caused a reverberating pain through his teeth & lower jaw?

It is pure conjecture to say it was broken in round one two, or any other round, for that matter.

Because he is Muhammad Ali. Someone with tremendous will power and heart.

deleted.

I am pretty stunned Ali leads the voting 17-4.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I am pretty stunned Ali leads the voting 17-4.

Yep, that is amazing.

I'm waiting for Alp to spin his story about the four haters that robbed Ali of his rightfully unanimous victory.

yancey wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

yancey wrote:
I find it disturbing that you are disturbed.

Damn right I voted for Frazier.

His very style made him tougher.

Plus he didn't clinch, grab, hold behind the head, refuse to go to a neutral corner, etc.

Or stoop to unfairly belittle his opponent just to play to the idiot masses and lamestream media.

Tougher man and better man was Joe Frazier.

I consider this core to the debate. While I feel Ali had a sturider chin for one big shot, he also had many manoeuvres at his disposal. Rolling with shots, bending, holding, leaning --- no one will ever convince me he could've done any better against Foreman than Frazier did in his first fight if he'd taken the same clean, undiluted shots Frazier weathered, & maybe Ali might even have done worse (not getting up six times).

Frazier had to absorb massive punishment, for the most part, head-on. I give him the edge as a result.

The right uppercut that Foreman put on Frazier for the second knockdown in '73 was one of the most powerful punches I've ever seen.

I literally cringed when I saw that punch for the first time. The fight was over at that point, in reality.

Very, very few fighters could have gotten up six times like Frazier did that night, let alone the second knockdown.

So do I take it that Ali is being marked down by yourselves because he managed to roll with the shots better, therefore making him less tough?

Ali took the same thunderous punches that Frazier took; Foreman has even said that he hit Ali harder than he'd ever hit anybody & not only did Ali not fall, he fought back & stopped Foreman, something that no other man has ever done.

Both these guys were authentically tough men, but to say that Frazier is tougher because he was knocked down 6 times by an oppoent that Ali defeated by taking the same punches all night is very confusing.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Syntax Error wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote: It has never been properly established when that injury occurred, in truth.

Never properly established by whom?

Other than Ali's say so, how else could it be established?

Why would Ali wince in pain every time Norton hit him on the jaw from about round 2 onwards?

Ali has nothing to gain by pretending to wince during a fight with one of his biggest foes.

It's clear to see that something is wrong with Ali's jaw from early on in that fight.

Why is Ali quite active in some of those later rounds if, as he claimed, each punch he threw caused a reverberating pain through his teeth & lower jaw?

It is pure conjecture to say it was broken in round one two, or any other round, for that matter.

I find this whole debate so bizarre.

Other fighters have had their jaws broken in fights (Sonny Liston & Razor Ruddock to name but two) & managed to continue fighting somewhat heroically, yet there's no doubt as to when or if the jaw was broken, it is just accepted as gospel from the said fighter.

Somehow, because Norton, who was probably still a bit raw from the gobby taunts of Ali casts doubt on the round which Ali's jaw was broken, a whole conspiracy theory has enveloped as to which round it occurred in.

Only Ali knows when the injury occurred & even Norton can't doubt that, but what cannot be denied is that something appears to be wrong with Ali from early on in that fight, which suggest to me that Ali is telling the truth.

BO Selecta wrote:

yancey wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote: I consider this core to the debate. While I feel Ali had a sturider chin for one big shot, he also had many manoeuvres at his disposal. Rolling with shots, bending, holding, leaning --- no one will ever convince me he could've done any better against Foreman than Frazier did in his first fight if he'd taken the same clean, undiluted shots Frazier weathered, & maybe Ali might even have done worse (not getting up six times).

Frazier had to absorb massive punishment, for the most part, head-on. I give him the edge as a result.

The right uppercut that Foreman put on Frazier for the second knockdown in '73 was one of the most powerful punches I've ever seen.

I literally cringed when I saw that punch for the first time. The fight was over at that point, in reality.

Very, very few fighters could have gotten up six times like Frazier did that night, let alone the second knockdown.

So do I take it that Ali is being marked down by yourselves because he managed to roll with the shots better, therefore making him less tough?

Ali took the same thunderous punches that Frazier took; Foreman has even said that he hit Ali harder than he'd ever hit anybody & not only did Ali not fall, he fought back & stopped Foreman, something that no other man has ever done.

Both these guys were authentically tough men, but to say that Frazier is tougher because he was knocked down 6 times by an oppoent that Ali defeated by taking the same punches all night is very confusing.

You're quite confused if you think Ali took the same flush shots on the chin that Frazier did.

I can assure you that I'm not confused in that respect, but I am confused by some of the comments on here.

Yes, I accept that Ali & Frazier did not taste exactly the same punches in the same place from Foreman, but I do think it's rather churlish to say that Frazier was hit harder (how does anyone know that apart from Foreman who said he hit ALI harder than he'd ever hit anybody?), got floored six times, but got up every time & that Ali could not have done that.

We're all fight fans & we've all seen enough of Ali's fights to know one thing, the man had balls, whether you like him or not, you cannot deny that.

How can anybody know that Ali could not have taken those punches in Jamaica, January '73 & not got up from them?

Judging by the way Ali's career panned out, it's highly likely he would even have gone down, but I'm only speculating as I cannot possibly know for sure.

I have no agenda as I am a fan of both men, so it's no big deal to me who wins this poll, but I do think too many people are allowing personal dislike of Ali to cloud their judgement of him, which is sad as it doesn't do him nor Frazier any justice.

I never said any of those things. Just responded to your comment that Ali took the same shots Frazier did. He didn't. Could he? There would be no reason for Ali to crouch down to about 5'8 and walk into Foreman's wheelhouse.

Citing Frazier getting stopped while Ali beat him is as silly as any statements that are bothering you. Joe's head was wide open and on a tee, I don't think anybody could handle that from George. Muhammad did take some big body punches. But he had his elbows tucked and knew they were coming.

As I said, I can't decide who was tougher. They were both the toughest SOB's. But Joe definitely took more punishment from Foreman. That isn't debatable.

Edit: And George saying he hit Ali harder isn't much of anything. Pac said the first MAB fight was tougher than the first fight with Morales. Fighters need to convince themself of things to carry on.

Even if he did, how much harder? Would you rather take a ten punch in the arm or a 9 punch flush on the chin?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

BO Selecta wrote:

yancey wrote: The right uppercut that Foreman put on Frazier for the second knockdown in '73 was one of the most powerful punches I've ever seen.

I literally cringed when I saw that punch for the first time. The fight was over at that point, in reality.

Very, very few fighters could have gotten up six times like Frazier did that night, let alone the second knockdown.

So do I take it that Ali is being marked down by yourselves because he managed to roll with the shots better, therefore making him less tough?

Ali took the same thunderous punches that Frazier took; Foreman has even said that he hit Ali harder than he'd ever hit anybody & not only did Ali not fall, he fought back & stopped Foreman, something that no other man has ever done.

Both these guys were authentically tough men, but to say that Frazier is tougher because he was knocked down 6 times by an oppoent that Ali defeated by taking the same punches all night is very confusing.

You're quite confused if you think Ali took the same flush shots on the chin that Frazier did.

Agree.

In fact, I started to type a reply but decided to not submit it.

Anybody that thinks Ali took the same kind of shots from Foreman that Frazier did is utterly beyond my ability to help.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I never said any of those things. Just responded to your comment that Ali took the same shots Frazier did. He didn't. Could he? There would be no reason for Ali to crouch down to about 5'8 and walk into Foreman's wheelhouse.

Citing Frazier getting stopped while Ali beat him is as silly as any statements that are bothering you. Joe's head was wide open and on a tee, I don't think anybody could handle that from George. Muhammad did take some big body punches. But he had his elbows tucked and knew they were coming.

As I said, I can't decide who was tougher. They were both the toughest SOB's. But Joe definitely took more punishment from Foreman. That isn't debatable.

Edit: And George saying he hit Ali harder isn't much of anything. Pac said the first MAB fight was tougher than the first fight with Morales. Fighters need to convince themself of things to carry on.

Even if he did, how much harder? Would you rather take a ten punch in the arm or a 9 punch flush on the chin?

Good post & fair points well made.

yancey wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

BO Selecta wrote: So do I take it that Ali is being marked down by yourselves because he managed to roll with the shots better, therefore making him less tough?

Ali took the same thunderous punches that Frazier took; Foreman has even said that he hit Ali harder than he'd ever hit anybody & not only did Ali not fall, he fought back & stopped Foreman, something that no other man has ever done.

Both these guys were authentically tough men, but to say that Frazier is tougher because he was knocked down 6 times by an oppoent that Ali defeated by taking the same punches all night is very confusing.

You're quite confused if you think Ali took the same flush shots on the chin that Frazier did.

Agree.

In fact, I started to type a reply but decided to not submit it.

Anybody that thinks Ali took the same kind of shots from Foreman that Frazier did is utterly beyond my ability to help.

Well, it's just fortunate for me that I don't need your help.

Old Fred wrote:There are some supremely opinionated arrogant fools on this forum who try to rewrite history to suit their own pathetic agendas.

Ali did take headshots in his fight with Foreman, and hard ones too.


Ali did say to Foreman "They told me you could hit hard George, is that all you got " during the fight.

And furthermore George did say he had never hit anyone as hard as he hit Ali, and it made him lose confidence when Ali kept saying " Come on George, you can do better than that "

Now as to who is tougher out of him and Joe, who cares? But the arrogant pricks on here who think they know better than Foreman himself, or indeed Ali, need to get a grip of themselves.

Old Fred wrote:There are some supremely opinionated arrogant fools on this forum who try to rewrite history to suit their own pathetic agendas.

Ali did take headshots in his fight with Foreman, and hard ones too.


Ali did say to Foreman "They told me you could hit hard George, is that all you got " during the fight.

And furthermore George did say he had never hit anyone as hard as he hit Ali, and it made him lose confidence when Ali kept saying " Come on George, you can do better than that "

Now as to who is tougher out of him and Joe, who cares? But the arrogant pricks on here who think they know better than Foreman himself, or indeed Ali, need to get a grip of themselves.

Good points.

If you believed some of the posts on here, you'd be forgiven for thinking that Foreman was making love to Ali for 7 3/4 rounds.

He was hitting Ali all over the place with extremely hard shots all throughout bout, so it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Ali might have shipped an equivalent or even greater amount of punishment than Frazier shipped in less than 2 rounds.

As I have said earlier, it's a great question that I just cannot answer.

Both men were great fighters & both were tough as hell & I'm still on the fence!! :P