BoxRec

crooked nose wrote:Yes, I agree Jimmy Young was one of the most skillful heavyweights. He made Ali look bad, twice beat Ron Lyle over the distance and changed the course of boxing history when he sent George Foreman into retirement. Check out that seventh round of the Foreman fight. Young was hurt badly - out on his feet, he later said. But he moved, slipped, rolled and smothered Big George for the remainder of the round until he was safe. The crowd in San Juan appreciated what he had done and started cheering for him the rest of the way. Too bad the heavyweight division relies so much on the big hitters.

I agree, around the time Foreman challenged Holyfiels I read an interview with Jimmy Young. Young said if I recall correctly, that in the first round Foreman landed a stiff jab to his face. Jimmy said he had never felt anything like it, his entire face just went numb.

He also said in this interview that in the 7th round, he was completely out on his feet.

I've often wondered how a Young V Holmes or Young V Quarry fight would have gone.

I notice that nobody has mentioned Jack Johnson, while I have only seen very limited film of him fighting from what I have read it seems he was a superb defensive fighter and invented the crossed arm blocking technique later used by Archie Moore.

Floyd Mayweather jr is the best defensive fighter not only does he have great head movement and a impenetrable guard his footwork allows him to evade many shots and get out the way of punches he is not the best fighter ever but he is the best defensive fighter .
other that deserve mentioning
nicolino locche
joe brown
Wilfredo benites
Muhammad ali at his prime
vasyl lomechenko
Guillermo rigondeux

The best that I have seen fight - Whitaker, Camacho, Monzon

KOJOE90 wrote:Does anyone think a pre drink and drugs Jimmy Young deserve at least a repectfull mention?

Yes!

Willie Pep and Pernel Whitaker

KOJOE90 wrote:Does anyone think a pre drink and drugs Jimmy Young deserve at least a repectfull mention?

Not at all for Young... You need to be consistent across all styles to be a great defender... You can't just be good against big slow guys... Lomachenko is the best defender I've ever seen... Rigondeaux, Tunney, Pep, Mayweather, Jofre, and Usyk have or had amazing defensive skills.

Whitaker got tagged up by De La Hoya and Locche got beaten up by Peppermint Frazer and Cervantes when he left Argentina.. Also his draw in Argentina with Carlos Ortiz wasn't a draw.. Locche fought mostly tomato cans who any good fighter could easily beat.

During their primes or close to it:

Heavyweight - Ali. Young and Johnson were great as well.
Light heavyweight - Probably between Harold Johnson and Tunney; maybe Charles.
Middleweight - Hard to say. Most great middleweights were much more known for their offense. Maybe Hopkins.
Welterweight- Benitiez
Lightweight -Whitaker
Featherweight -Pep

For starters, he wasn't head and shoulders above Hopkins and Wright.

Johnny Nelson deserves a mention.

Yourself.

golden oldie wrote:Despicable person, but Mayweather stands head and shoulders above anyone else in the last 20 years, defensively.

Maybe true, but he has not been good for the fight game; no doubt a fighter should use all his skills to protect himself, (and I [and you] can appreciate what we are watching when he fights) but that damn Pacman fight really hurt; many of my (non-boxing) 'sports fans' friends sneered at the fight; giving me all kinds of shite: "see, they don't really fight; why would you pay money to watch that, you're being conned," [Etc.] - but again, you and I know, if you got the talent you deploy it, and then you go undefeated . . . but he has not been good for the fight game.

But yes, one of the best defensive fighters, not just in the last twenty years, but ever. Not flashy (like Camacho or Pep), not cagey (like Whitaker or Benitez), just very effective; it was that kind of non-flashy effectiveness I was trying to give mention to when I put up Monzon's name. Almost impossible to hit clean; masterful.



Be careful with what you say back to me or I will put you on ignore.

Pep, Whittaker , Toney,

golden oldie wrote:

APerno wrote:

golden oldie wrote:Despicable person, but Mayweather stands head and shoulders above anyone else in the last 20 years, defensively.

Maybe true, but he has not been good for the fight game; no doubt a fighter should use all his skills to protect himself, (and I [and you] can appreciate what we are watching when he fights) but that damn Pacman fight really hurt; many of my (non-boxing) 'sports fans' friends sneered at the fight; giving me all kinds of shite: "see, they don't really fight; why would you pay money to watch that, you're being conned," [Etc.] - but again, you and I know, if you got the talent you deploy it, and then you go undefeated . . . but he has not been good for the fight game.

But yes, one of the best defensive fighters, not just in the last twenty years, but ever. Not flashy (like Camacho or Pep), not cagey (like Whitaker or Benitez), just very effective; it was that kind of non-flashy effectiveness I was trying to give mention to when I put up Monzon's name. Almost impossible to hit clean; masterful.



Be careful with what you say back to me or I will put you on ignore.

As far as I know, his job wasn't to be GOOD for boxing. It was to go out and win fights, and he did so with consummate ease. To stand within range, and make the other guy miss is quite an achievement. But to then punish them for doing so is taking it to another level.

I simply refuse to acknowledge someone as limited as Pacquiao in the same sentence as Mayweather, so feel free to put me on ignore if you like.

". .. his job wasn't to be GOOD for boxing" - but of course (I really thought I said that also) - but we definitely agree Mayweather's defense was masterful - when we talk about Pep and Camacho we phrase what we see in the footwork because it is obvious, but when you watch someone like Mayweather so much is going on down there that fans (and ignorant me) can't truly appreciate it, but it is still great footwork - we constantly hear seconds in the corner saying to their fighters 'give him angles, give and angles' and then the fighter goes out, squares off in front of the guy anyway, and gets banged - Maywetaher had a subtle, but brilliant ability to stand in front of his opponent and actually give him 'angles' that made clean shots almost impossible. I feel certain that he was doing so much more with his positioning (footwork), at a level of sophistication and subtly that was beyond my ability to understand it.

I really wasn't trying to equate Pacquiao with Mayweather (don't have an opinion there)

Wow, first thread I ever posted on I think.

13 years later I'll chuck George Benton's name into the mix.

golden oldie wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote: Yourself.

Don't be so childish as to let your emotional crap cloud your judgement when judging a RING genius like Mayweather.

Don't be childish? You started it.

Rocky Marciano was also undefeated in 49 bouts. So he must have been far and away the best defensive fighter than anyone of his time.

To answer your question Hopkins lost twice in his first 49 fights. A four-round decision in his first pro fight and to Roy Jones.
Wright lost three times in his first , all three close decisions to good fighters.
They didn't have judges to bail them out like Mayweather had against Castillo.

btw-I never said either were better defensively than Mayweather. I said that Mayweather was not head and shoulders better defensively than them.

Pep
Whitaker
Locche
Mayweather
Benitez
Toney
Benton
Canto
B Leonard
Duran

Add Eddie Perkins and Ralph Dupas into this mix.

Hilario Zapata
Eusebio Pedroza
Johnny Famechon
Hector Acero Sanchez

These guys have not been mentioned.

Acero-sanchez shouldn't be mentioned.

Fixed fights in the 1950s is not why Marciano's was 49-0.

Of course he wasn't a great defensive fighter. I was just showing how stupid your logic was about going 49-0 means someone is head and shoulders better defenseivly than everyone else of his era. Win/loss records can be extremely deceiving in boxing. It's not like everyone is fighting the same competition. And in Marciano's case, it wasn't his defense that made him great.

It's the head and shoulders part I disagree with. That is a great exaggeration. It's not like Mayweather never got hit. There were other guys who were great defensively as well.

Although very awkward and far being a classical boxer, Rocky Marciano had a very effective fighting style and had to work very hard to refine it with the great trainer, Charley Goldman, teaching him the ropes. It was surprisingly difficult to hit Marciano with effective blows despite the fact that he was far from being a defensive master.

- Chuck Johnston