BoxRec

The Dark Destroyer wrote:Beat him quite convincingly.

Let's look at the evidence.

Fight one.
Lewis was in shape at 238 pounds - he was never that light again.
McCall is mentally stable.
McCall wins by stoppage.

Fight two.
Lewis is in good shape.
McCall is mentally unstable.
Lewis wins when McCall has a breakdown in the ring.

Lewis doesn't hurt McCall in either fight.
McCall knocks Lewis down.

I know Lewis is a much better boxer and will be rated higher than McCall. But I think prime vs prime with Manny Stewart in McCall's corner, Oliver stops him.

Obviously not the single most overrated heavy ever but nobody's mentioned him yet so I will: Riddick Bowe. I know he was a good fighter and he had some excellent fights but some people go a little overboard on him. Despite winning 2 out of 3 I still don't think he was as good a fighter as Holyfield who had far more longevity and a much better record. I can't see Bowe beating Tyson like holyfield did. Can't see him beating Lewis either if they'd met in the pros.
People go on about his jab but he didn't use it enough considering his size. very good offensively but his defense was nonexistant.

mrbassie wrote:Obviously not the single most overrated heavy ever but nobody's mentioned him yet so I will: Riddick Bowe. I know he was a good fighter and he had some excellent fights but some people go a little overboard on him. Despite winning 2 out of 3 I still don't think he was as good a fighter as Holyfield who had far more longevity and a much better record. I can't see Bowe beating Tyson like holyfield did. Can't see him beating Lewis either if they'd met in the pros.
People go on about his jab but he didn't use it enough considering his size. very good offensively but his defense was nonexistant.

I 100% agree.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

The Dark Destroyer wrote:Beat him quite convincingly.

Let's look at the evidence.

Fight one.
Lewis was in shape at 238 pounds - he was never that light again.
McCall is mentally stable.
McCall wins by stoppage.

Fight two.
Lewis is in good shape.
McCall is mentally unstable.
Lewis wins when McCall has a breakdown in the ring.

Lewis doesn't hurt McCall in either fight.
McCall knocks Lewis down.

I know Lewis is a much better boxer and will be rated higher than McCall. But I think prime vs prime with Manny Stewart in McCall's corner, Oliver stops him.

you have to consider though that Lewis became a significantly better fighter under Steward, you have to factor that in when you talk about his 'prime'. That Correa guy clearly didn't know his arse from his elbow and the right trainer is a big part of what makes a fighter, look at Tyson's decline and look at Hamed after he split with the Ingles. Completely different fighters.

mrbassie wrote:Obviously not the single most overrated heavy ever but nobody's mentioned him yet so I will: Riddick Bowe. I know he was a good fighter and he had some excellent fights but some people go a little overboard on him. Despite winning 2 out of 3 I still don't think he was as good a fighter as Holyfield who had far more longevity and a much better record. I can't see Bowe beating Tyson like holyfield did. Can't see him beating Lewis either if they'd met in the pros.
People go on about his jab but he didn't use it enough considering his size. very good offensively but his defense was nonexistant.

Agree with the underlined...

mrbassie wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

The Dark Destroyer wrote:Beat him quite convincingly.

Let's look at the evidence.

Fight one.
Lewis was in shape at 238 pounds - he was never that light again.
McCall is mentally stable.
McCall wins by stoppage.

Fight two.
Lewis is in good shape.
McCall is mentally unstable.
Lewis wins when McCall has a breakdown in the ring.

Lewis doesn't hurt McCall in either fight.
McCall knocks Lewis down.

I know Lewis is a much better boxer and will be rated higher than McCall. But I think prime vs prime with Manny Stewart in McCall's corner, Oliver stops him.

you have to consider though that Lewis became a significantly better fighter under Steward, you have to factor that in when you talk about his 'prime'. That Correa guy clearly didn't know his arse from his elbow and the right trainer is a big part of what makes a fighter, look at Tyson's decline and look at Hamed after he split with the Ingles. Completely different fighters.

I agree mate, but some times it's just a question of styles make fights. Lewis wouldn't have stopped McCall. So the question is could McCall knock him out. And Prime for Prime, I think he lands that right hand at some point.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

mrbassie wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote: Let's look at the evidence.

Fight one.
Lewis was in shape at 238 pounds - he was never that light again.
McCall is mentally stable.
McCall wins by stoppage.

Fight two.
Lewis is in good shape.
McCall is mentally unstable.
Lewis wins when McCall has a breakdown in the ring.

Lewis doesn't hurt McCall in either fight.
McCall knocks Lewis down.

I know Lewis is a much better boxer and will be rated higher than McCall. But I think prime vs prime with Manny Stewart in McCall's corner, Oliver stops him.

you have to consider though that Lewis became a significantly better fighter under Steward, you have to factor that in when you talk about his 'prime'. That Correa guy clearly didn't know his arse from his elbow and the right trainer is a big part of what makes a fighter, look at Tyson's decline and look at Hamed after he split with the Ingles. Completely different fighters.

I agree mate, but some times it's just a question of styles make fights. Lewis wouldn't have stopped McCall. So the question is could McCall knock him out. And Prime for Prime, I think he lands that right hand at some point.

I see what you're saying but it's not like every big punch would automatically put Lewis over, he did catch him when he was throwing himself. I think Lewis in cautious mode would decision him quite widely.

mrbassie wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

mrbassie wrote: you have to consider though that Lewis became a significantly better fighter under Steward, you have to factor that in when you talk about his 'prime'. That Correa guy clearly didn't know his arse from his elbow and the right trainer is a big part of what makes a fighter, look at Tyson's decline and look at Hamed after he split with the Ingles. Completely different fighters.

I agree mate, but some times it's just a question of styles make fights. Lewis wouldn't have stopped McCall. So the question is could McCall knock him out. And Prime for Prime, I think he lands that right hand at some point.

I see what you're saying but it's not like every big punch would automatically put Lewis over, he did catch him when he was throwing himself. I think Lewis in cautious mode would decision him quite widely.

Fair comment mate.

Tyson- agreed with Ezzard

keithmoonhangover wrote:

mrbassie wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote: Let's look at the evidence.

Fight one.
Lewis was in shape at 238 pounds - he was never that light again.
McCall is mentally stable.
McCall wins by stoppage.

Fight two.
Lewis is in good shape.
McCall is mentally unstable.
Lewis wins when McCall has a breakdown in the ring.

Lewis doesn't hurt McCall in either fight.
McCall knocks Lewis down.

I know Lewis is a much better boxer and will be rated higher than McCall. But I think prime vs prime with Manny Stewart in McCall's corner, Oliver stops him.

you have to consider though that Lewis became a significantly better fighter under Steward, you have to factor that in when you talk about his 'prime'. That Correa guy clearly didn't know his arse from his elbow and the right trainer is a big part of what makes a fighter, look at Tyson's decline and look at Hamed after he split with the Ingles. Completely different fighters.

I agree mate, but some times it's just a question of styles make fights. Lewis wouldn't have stopped McCall. So the question is could McCall knock him out. And Prime for Prime, I think he lands that right hand at some point.

So Kirkland Laing is a better fighter than Roberto Duran? Or Liston is chinny because powder puff puncher Ali done him in one round? At the end of the day any boxer, especially heavyweights, can be caught and stopped. You can't base Lewis's career on one fight. He fought loads of big punchers and beat them, Tyson, Mason, Bruno, Klitschko, Briggs, Mercer, Morrison, Tua and Ruddock to name a few so if he was as chinny as you think he would have been dropped or stopped many times.

In my opinion Lewis was as complete a heavyweight you could want, big, tall, long reach, good jab, fit, good boxing ability and a ko punch. On his day he could beat anyone.

BarryWashington wrote:

mrbassie wrote:Obviously not the single most overrated heavy ever but nobody's mentioned him yet so I will: Riddick Bowe. I know he was a good fighter and he had some excellent fights but some people go a little overboard on him. Despite winning 2 out of 3 I still don't think he was as good a fighter as Holyfield who had far more longevity and a much better record. I can't see Bowe beating Tyson like holyfield did. Can't see him beating Lewis either if they'd met in the pros.
People go on about his jab but he didn't use it enough considering his size. very good offensively but his defense was nonexistant.

id favor a prime bowe (if he can be mentally calm) over tyson. mike wouldnt knock out a prime bowe and would probably get wore down to a late round stoppage.

I can sort of see your line of thought but I just think Bowe was far too easy to hit and far too willing to trade. Put it this way, Tyson has speed, power and chin over Bowe (imo)-and it could be argued-boxing ability as well. Admittedly Tyson was not exactly at the height of his powers in the 90's but still...
It's just my opinion but I honestly can't see Bowe not getting knocked out. I can't see him fighting smart like Douglas or Holyfield, I don't think he had the discipline not to go to war and I can only see one winner in that scenario.

mrbassie wrote:

BarryWashington wrote:

mrbassie wrote:Obviously not the single most overrated heavy ever but nobody's mentioned him yet so I will: Riddick Bowe. I know he was a good fighter and he had some excellent fights but some people go a little overboard on him. Despite winning 2 out of 3 I still don't think he was as good a fighter as Holyfield who had far more longevity and a much better record. I can't see Bowe beating Tyson like holyfield did. Can't see him beating Lewis either if they'd met in the pros.
People go on about his jab but he didn't use it enough considering his size. very good offensively but his defense was nonexistant.

id favor a prime bowe (if he can be mentally calm) over tyson. mike wouldnt knock out a prime bowe and would probably get wore down to a late round stoppage.

I can sort of see your line of thought but I just think Bowe was far too easy to hit and far too willing to trade. Put it this way, Tyson has speed, power and chin over Bowe (imo)-and it could be argued-boxing ability as well. Admittedly Tyson was not exactly at the height of his powers in the 90's but still...
It's just my opinion but I honestly can't see Bowe not getting knocked out. I can't see him fighting smart like Douglas or Holyfield, I don't think he had the discipline not to go to war and I can only see one winner in that scenario.

Prime versus prime. Tyson ravages Bowe like a hungry tiger on a boody steak. Tyson lands far too often and far two hard and before anyone comes out and says Bowe wouldn't get knocked out.Look at what Mike did to Larry Holmes - a fighter that no one else could stop in his career before or after. That Tyson would slaughter Bowe

My take on the HWs of the late 80s / 90s.

Holyfield and Tyson are 1. / 2. With 3. Lennox and then 4. Bowe.

Though, I think Lennox was made to order for Tyson. Tyson loved guys that backed up and Lennox would have. A prime Tyson TKOs Lennox.....I see a prime Holyfield stopping Lennox late or winning a close UD. But Lennox was always a bad match-up for Holy (styles make fights).

As for Bowe Vs Tyson. This is one of those matches that while Bowe would be there to be hit...he was also a very good inside fighter for a big man...and he could catch Tyson inside more often than people think. His size would also cause Tyson some trouble along with that jab. If I had to bet the farm I take Tyson by mid to late Rd TKO.......but I could see Bowe winning 3 or 4 out of ten on Tyson...... Tyson fought best when he fought people who backed up when hit (those who didn't return fire with fire) Bowe is not in that category. He'd stand and fire back....

Sam Peter easy

Lewis and Foreman, of course.

I really don't see how Lewis is overrated. It seems to me that the majority of people who discuss his all-time ranking tend to place him in the low top 10-12 range--not somewhere ridiculous like the top 3/4. If you don't see a legit case for ranking Lewis in the top 10/12, can you please present a cogent argument as to why not.

BarryWashington wrote:

mrbassie wrote:Obviously not the single most overrated heavy ever but nobody's mentioned him yet so I will: Riddick Bowe. I know he was a good fighter and he had some excellent fights but some people go a little overboard on him. Despite winning 2 out of 3 I still don't think he was as good a fighter as Holyfield who had far more longevity and a much better record. I can't see Bowe beating Tyson like holyfield did. Can't see him beating Lewis either if they'd met in the pros.
People go on about his jab but he didn't use it enough considering his size. very good offensively but his defense was nonexistant.

id favor a prime bowe (if he can be mentally calm) over tyson. mike wouldnt knock out a prime bowe and would probably get wore down to a late round stoppage.

Can't see it myself, Tyson was faster, hit harder and had a more proven chin and a better defense. It would resemble the Ruddock fights imo. Standing and trading with Tyson isn't a smart move for anybody and I think Bowe had too much bravado to adopt the clinch and walk him back approach to stifling him.

Bowe would abuse Tyson on the inside. The difference in physical strength between the two was astronomical. Riddick would definitely push Mike around. All I see for tyson is a punchers chance. That's significant when you're talking about him. But more often than not I think Riddick would deliver a frightful beating to Tyson.

i think "most overrated" ended with web2.o. today, no matter
who or what, the critics are loud. appreciation and condemnation
come in waves, but overall you have ... everything.

i have to say ... though ... that i think jack dempsey is as praised
as you can possibly be.

i completely disagree on lennox. no overrating whatsoever. beat
every man put in front of him in time of a strong division. what
more could you ask for?

tyson is another animal. his first career ... how can you possibly
overrate him? ... second ... not a shade of his former self.

man wrote:i think "most overrated" ended with web2.o. today, no matter
who or what, the critics are loud. appreciation and condemnation
come in waves, but overall you have ... everything.

i have to say ... though ... that i think jack dempsey is as praised
as you can possibly be.

i completely disagree on lennox. no overrating whatsoever. beat
every man put in front of him in time of a strong division. what
more could you ask for?

tyson is another animal. his first career ... how can you possibly
overrate him? ... second ... not a shade of his former self.

I agree. Tyson admits himself that his career ended in 1991. Tyson after that is like Ali after the ban. Never the same fighter again.

Lewis can certainly be listed as overated as it pertains to truly great heavyweight champions, but in the vein of heavyweight champions in general he is just outside the very best heavyweights. He certainly beat, he did not dominate, his era, with the exception of Bowe, and at their very best I think Bowe would knockout Lewis. As big and as powerful as Lewis was, he should have destroyerd opponents, which he did on very rare occasions, such as Ruddock & Golota, but Ruddock was greatly overated based on knocking out a couple of old heavyweight champs and lasting the distance with a past his prime Tyson!

As far a truly overated h eavyweight champions...I really like him, but Max Baer is overated as an all-time great heavyweight...Ingo Johansson, Wladimir and Vitali are both huge and hard to fight, but overated in terms of greatness...Sonny Liston most definately overated!

keithmoonhangover wrote:

man wrote:i think "most overrated" ended with web2.o. today, no matter
who or what, the critics are loud. appreciation and condemnation
come in waves, but overall you have ... everything.

i have to say ... though ... that i think jack dempsey is as praised
as you can possibly be.

i completely disagree on lennox. no overrating whatsoever. beat
every man put in front of him in time of a strong division. what
more could you ask for?

tyson is another animal. his first career ... how can you possibly
overrate him? ... second ... not a shade of his former self.

I agree. Tyson admits himself that his career ended in 1991. Tyson after that is like Ali after the ban. Never the same fighter again.

LOL. & Roy Jones admit himself that his career ended in 2003.

barry wrote:Lewis can certainly be listed as overated as it pertains to truly great heavyweight champions, but in the vein of heavyweight champions in general he is just outside the very best heavyweights. He certainly beat, he did not dominate, his era, with the exception of Bowe, and at their very best I think Bowe would knockout Lewis. As big and as powerful as Lewis was, he should have destroyerd opponents, which he did on very rare occasions, such as Ruddock & Golota, but Ruddock was greatly overated based on knocking out a couple of old heavyweight champs and lasting the distance with a past his prime Tyson!

As far a truly overated h eavyweight champions...I really like him, but Max Baer is overated as an all-time great heavyweight...Ingo Johansson, Wladimir and Vitali are both huge and hard to fight, but overated in terms of greatness...Sonny Liston most definately overated!

This is a bizarre thing to say! "Lennox beat everyone he ever fought.........but he should have beaten them better".

Lennox was a naturally cautious fighter but you use that as though it's a negative point, which isn't necessarily the case. Granted it worked against him in the Holyfield fight but on the flip side of that, you could easily point out Holyfield's LACK of caution in his fight against Bowe and how it made him a less effective fighter overall. In the vast majority of Lewis fights his cautiousness allowed him to wear his opponent down until he felt a KO was achievable and there's nothing wrong with that. It certainly isn't detrimental to his standing in the ATG rankings.

Also, I disagree with the posters who are saying that the 90s was a weak division.

Lennox higher tier victories include Razor Ruddock, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Andrew Golota, Evander Holyfield, David Tua and Vitali Klitschko.

Second tier victories including Gary Mason, Hasim Rahman, Michael Grant, Tyrell Biggs, Mike Tyson among others.

This record and opponent list is superior than anything Tyson put together in the late 80s and I personally rate the 1990s as one of the top 3 or 4 eras in the history of the sport, with Lennox as the dominant heavyweight of that period.

At HW it's got to be Holyfield. He is the best CW of all time. But too often people put him in there top 10 HW all time list.
He was a great HW Champ but he wern't as good as a lot of people think.

crusader wrote:I really don't see how Lewis is overrated. It seems to me that the majority of people who discuss his all-time ranking tend to place him in the low top 10-12 range--not somewhere ridiculous like the top 3/4. If you don't see a legit case for ranking Lewis in the top 10/12, can you please present a cogent argument as to why not.

In my experience people tend to have him closer to the 3-4 realm than the 10-12 one, although I'd agree the latter is right around where he belongs.