BoxRec

johnnykayo wrote:p.s. dave,simon would certainly not bump you at all as he is a gent and man of honor and his word as he done me a right favour and iam indebted to him for it,he got me a old boxing news for my pal with his grandad in and he had been after it for years and simon sorted him out with a copy,so the man is a diamond and certainly a man of honour,a gent.

Cool, I had gotten that impression from reading his posts.

Aaron Pryor 'the Hawk' nothing comes
Close

JohnnyKO - according to Google mcglagen wrote his own bio back in the 1930's, bet thats a good read.

Personally I like old-school boxing writing, anything from Liebling, Red Smith, Fleischer, etc. I think the standard of writing was amazingly high back then.

If anyone hasn't read them already there's a great collection of articles by Pat Putnam over at thesweetscience.com, really good stuff.

Bomber 1 wrote:Aaron Pryor 'the Hawk' nothing comes
Close

Any idea where i could get a copy?

Has anyone ever read The Professional by W.C. Heinz? Haven't myself, but heard its pretty good.

johnnykayo wrote:davy am i right in sayin "give him to the angels " is fetchin ridicoulous money now as you could pick that up for about a tenner a few years ago but its well expensive now,love to see some footage of greb though as he was awesome !

Aye it's sad that theres not any footage of Greb fighting, have you seen his wee spar with Philly Jack O'Brien? Bet Harry he would have been some machine to watch, from reading the book he changed his style a number of times thru various stages of his career, turning savy boxer once he lost his sight in one eye. Incredible.

I also admire the Gibbons brothers who were known for their great skill in the ring. Again very little footage... :(

I have read Dark Trade which was a winner of the William Hill Sports of the Year and I enjoyed it as well it is was very eyeopening and thought provoking on this sport that we all love, and I also enjoyed Four Kings about Sugar Ray Leonard, Marvellous Marvin Hagler, Tommy "Hitman" Hearns and the Hands of Stone Roberto Duran as well, while on the subject of Duran the biography by Christian Giudice entitled Hands of Stone is definitely worth a read too, and also McIvanney (sp) on Boxing who use to write for the Observer and now the Sunday Times which is a collection of his writings are very good as well, particular what the article wrote about Johnny Owen's gallant but ulitmately fatal fight against Lupe Pintor..

Unforgiveable Blackness I found dull and a bit self indulgent on behalf of the author...

Four Kings
Float like a Butterfly
The Fight
Dark Trade
Facing Tyson

Slightly off topic, but check out the 'Tao of Bruce Lee' that's top drawer...

DaveBoyMorrison wrote:

simon fox wrote:

DaveBoyMorrison wrote:I enjoyed "The Fearless Harry Greb". Very informative book about one of the greatest fighters ever.

I've been looking to buy that off Amazon for a while; it doesn't get any cheaper does it? :(

Is it worth the money? Would you read it again?

Cheers.

it was worth it Simon. There are lots of myths and legends about Greb and the book tries to explain and clarify them.

I could always send you it to read and you can send it back, everyone I wanted to read it has done so and Ive read it twice, so if you bump me it's no great loss

p.s the book left me with the impression Greb was one of the hardest fighters to have ever lived as well as being very intelligent inside and outside the ring.

spot on. a fantastic read and well worth it. greb put everything into boxing and didnt let something as trivial as losing sight in one eye slow him down.

I think it all depends on what you look for in a book, and whether one is a reader generally


I've read every book cited on this thread - I've got a decent boxing library. I'd split boxing books into 3, occasionally overlapping categories , particularly 2 and 3.

1. The flimsy, ghost written "auto biogs". Full of short sentences, no adverbs, use of adjectives is sparse. I read them like they write - as fluff. You get some surprises - The Journeyman is terribly written but poignant and insightful, most are dross, but I always seem to have one in my laptop bag when I fly.

2.A properly well written boxing book, but obviously about boxing. . Kimball has nailed that with "Four Kings", its an immense read. McIllanvey on Boxing does this perfectly too (that may be my favourite boxing book of all time). Unforgivable Blackness is almost there, but the guy can't use commas.

3. Moving on from 2, and I suppose the holy grail of boxing writing: The genuine literary book where boxing is the metaphor not the raison d'etre. Liebling did that perfectly, on a more recent level NIck Tosches, and possibly McRrae . Its when you want to read other things the writer has published, even if it doesn't mention boxing. Mailer,is for me, the perfect example of being terrible at this genre - referring to oneself as "the Writer" throughout his tortuous prose. The Unforgivable Blackness is in this category too. Of course, most Category 2 writer wishes to be a Category 3

Just my thoughts.

Loynesy wrote:I think it all depends on what you look for in a book, and whether one is a reader generally


I've read every book cited on this thread - I've got a decent boxing library. I'd split boxing books into 3, occasionally overlapping categories , particularly 2 and 3.

1. The flimsy, ghost written "auto biogs". Full of short sentences, no adverbs, use of adjectives is sparse. I read them like they write - as fluff. You get some surprises - The Journeyman is terribly written but poignant and insightful, most are dross, but I always seem to have one in my laptop bag when I fly.

2.A properly well written boxing book, but obviously about boxing. . Kimball has nailed that with "Four Kings", its an immense read. McIllanvey on Boxing does this perfectly too (that may be my favourite boxing book of all time). Unforgivable Blackness is almost there, but the guy can't use commas.

3. Moving on from 2, and I suppose the holy grail of boxing writing: The genuine literary book where boxing is the metaphor not the raison d'etre. Liebling did that perfectly, on a more recent level NIck Tosches, and possibly McRrae . Its when you want to read other things the writer has published, even if it doesn't mention boxing. Mailer,is for me, the perfect example of being terrible at this genre - referring to oneself as "the Writer" throughout his tortuous prose. The Unforgivable Blackness is in this category too. Of course, most Category 2 writer wishes to be a Category 3

Just my thoughts.

Regarding your category 3, after reading Unlicensed by John Hotten, i decided to give another of his books a go. Muscle, it was called and was about bodybuilding, of which i have very little interest in but i still enjoyed it, proving your point i suppose. It did have a few boxing references in though due to Kerry Keys massive influence in that sport.

their is a book comin out later in the year on cus d,amato,it looks a good un too,wrote by a american guy but cant remember his name,look out for it though.

StevenB wrote:Unforgiveable Blackness I found dull and a bit self indulgent on behalf of the author...

Four Kings
Float like a Butterfly
The Fight
Dark Trade
Facing Tyson

Slightly off topic, but check out the 'Tao of Bruce Lee' that's top drawer...

he wrote a follow-up too, the Zen of Muhammad Ali. I've only read the first handful of pages but there's a great scene where Ali starts shadowboxing, proper shadowboxing, despite being so rundown with his illness.

Loynesy wrote:I think it all depends on what you look for in a book, and whether one is a reader generally


I've read every book cited on this thread - I've got a decent boxing library. I'd split boxing books into 3, occasionally overlapping categories , particularly 2 and 3.

1. The flimsy, ghost written "auto biogs". Full of short sentences, no adverbs, use of adjectives is sparse. I read them like they write - as fluff. You get some surprises - The Journeyman is terribly written but poignant and insightful, most are dross, but I always seem to have one in my laptop bag when I fly.

2.A properly well written boxing book, but obviously about boxing. . Kimball has nailed that with "Four Kings", its an immense read. McIllanvey on Boxing does this perfectly too (that may be my favourite boxing book of all time). Unforgivable Blackness is almost there, but the guy can't use commas.

3. Moving on from 2, and I suppose the holy grail of boxing writing: The genuine literary book where boxing is the metaphor not the raison d'etre. Liebling did that perfectly, on a more recent level NIck Tosches, and possibly McRrae . Its when you want to read other things the writer has published, even if it doesn't mention boxing. Mailer,is for me, the perfect example of being terrible at this genre - referring to oneself as "the Writer" throughout his tortuous prose. The Unforgivable Blackness is in this category too. Of course, most Category 2 writer wishes to be a Category 3

Just my thoughts.

Having ghost written an autobiography myself - I have to say, that the prose is going to be as sparse as the language of the person you ineterview. There's no point trying to make them come off as some sort of urbane wit when that's not how they talk - nobody is going to expect or believe that an east end boxer talks like Steven Fry.

Loynesy wrote:I think it all depends on what you look for in a book, and whether one is a reader generally


I've read every book cited on this thread - I've got a decent boxing library. I'd split boxing books into 3, occasionally overlapping categories , particularly 2 and 3.

1. The flimsy, ghost written "auto biogs". Full of short sentences, no adverbs, use of adjectives is sparse. I read them like they write - as fluff. You get some surprises - The Journeyman is terribly written but poignant and insightful, most are dross, but I always seem to have one in my laptop bag when I fly.

2.A properly well written boxing book, but obviously about boxing. . Kimball has nailed that with "Four Kings", its an immense read. McIllanvey on Boxing does this perfectly too (that may be my favourite boxing book of all time). Unforgivable Blackness is almost there, but the guy can't use commas.

3. Moving on from 2, and I suppose the holy grail of boxing writing: The genuine literary book where boxing is the metaphor not the raison d'etre. Liebling did that perfectly, on a more recent level NIck Tosches, and possibly McRrae . Its when you want to read other things the writer has published, even if it doesn't mention boxing. Mailer,is for me, the perfect example of being terrible at this genre - referring to oneself as "the Writer" throughout his tortuous prose. The Unforgivable Blackness is in this category too. Of course, most Category 2 writer wishes to be a Category 3

Just my thoughts.

I second this man's sentiments, if not necessarily all of his choices.

For 'quality of prose', I suggest A.J. Liebling's "The Sweet Science". For 'using some fellas punching each other to tell you something about the world', David Remnick's "King Of The World" and Kevin Mitchell's "War Baby". For sheer entertaining loopiness, Norman Mailer's "The Fight". For 'something really good about boxing', all of the above as well as George Kimball's "Four Kings".

I liked "Unforgivable Blackness" but it really is one of those biographies where the level of detail would be most appreciated by someone already more obsessed with the man and his life than me.

I didn't like Nick Tosches "Night Train" much. It's interesting by dint of Sonny Liston's story being an interesting one, but - acclaimed though it may be - I can't see much good in it beyond that. I found the prose to be irritating (a cack-handed attempt at that sparse Hemmingway-style thing to prove you're tough as well as clever), bits of the content to be irritating (I know a lot of folks think Ali was overrated, but Tosches is reluctant to grant that he was even remotely capable), and further bits of the content to be downright revolting (he seems impressed by the fact that Liston would injure prostitutes in a certain kind of way). I'm glad I've read it, but I was more glad to have finished it.

dexter wrote:

Bomber 1 wrote:Aaron Pryor 'the Hawk' nothing comes
Close

Any idea where i could get a copy?

Wish I could get a copy, cheapest I've found is £43 to £160 for the paperback verison. Emailed Mr Pryor a few times asking if he had a spare copy or two and suggesting a reprint may be in order but never heard back.

2 Seconds from glory >>>>> all other boxing books.

I love Benn, but his autobiography is terribly written, it's a combination of the author's bad English and it very probably not been proofread.

Michael Watson's book is well written and interesting. It's one of the few books I've cried whilst reading.

Eubank's definitely a bit eccentric, possibly a bit thick but his book is well written (as these sort of things go) and interesting - The book reflects that, as it should any boxing bio/autobio.

One of the biggest duds I read was Tapia's, it was badly written and really repetitive and to be honest, pretty boring. He completely skips over the majority of the main points in his life and there's only so many times you can read him talking about how off his face he was before thinking, why are you even writing this?

Contrast it with say, someone who looks positively dull next to him (Magri) and his book is an excellent read.

I don't know if the subject just makes for bad reading or whether it's a combination of being badly written or not but I find that the bio/autobios of the less "interesting" people in boxing are a far more interesting read and don't come across as a retrospective whitewashing of their life/career. Billy Walker's is a case in point, it's relatively well written but it's just one giant cliche and it becomes this whole "well I pulled this smashing bird" turgid read.

I didn't really like Watsons. Maybe it was all the religion stuff but found it a bit of a chore to read.

I did like Dominic Negus' book though.

I have no time for religion, I honestly don't remember much from Watson's book about it but remember that it really got on my tits in one of the Holyfield books. The Meldrick Taylor one has a mention on nearly every page.

Loynesy wrote:I think it all depends on what you look for in a book, and whether one is a reader generally


I've read every book cited on this thread - I've got a decent boxing library. I'd split boxing books into 3, occasionally overlapping categories , particularly 2 and 3.

1. The flimsy, ghost written "auto biogs". Full of short sentences, no adverbs, use of adjectives is sparse. I read them like they write - as fluff. You get some surprises - The Journeyman is terribly written but poignant and insightful, most are dross, but I always seem to have one in my laptop bag when I fly.

2.A properly well written boxing book, but obviously about boxing. . Kimball has nailed that with "Four Kings", its an immense read. McIllanvey on Boxing does this perfectly too (that may be my favourite boxing book of all time). Unforgivable Blackness is almost there, but the guy can't use commas.

3. Moving on from 2, and I suppose the holy grail of boxing writing: The genuine literary book where boxing is the metaphor not the raison d'etre. Liebling did that perfectly, on a more recent level NIck Tosches, and possibly McRrae . Its when you want to read other things the writer has published, even if it doesn't mention boxing. Mailer,is for me, the perfect example of being terrible at this genre - referring to oneself as "the Writer" throughout his tortuous prose. The Unforgivable Blackness is in this category too. Of course, most Category 2 writer wishes to be a Category 3

Just my thoughts.

excellent post i agree with youu 110% on both McIlvanney and Mailer

Russ L wrote:

Loynesy wrote:I think it all depends on what you look for in a book, and whether one is a reader generally


I've read every book cited on this thread - I've got a decent boxing library. I'd split boxing books into 3, occasionally overlapping categories , particularly 2 and 3.

1. The flimsy, ghost written "auto biogs". Full of short sentences, no adverbs, use of adjectives is sparse. I read them like they write - as fluff. You get some surprises - The Journeyman is terribly written but poignant and insightful, most are dross, but I always seem to have one in my laptop bag when I fly.

2.A properly well written boxing book, but obviously about boxing. . Kimball has nailed that with "Four Kings", its an immense read. McIllanvey on Boxing does this perfectly too (that may be my favourite boxing book of all time). Unforgivable Blackness is almost there, but the guy can't use commas.

3. Moving on from 2, and I suppose the holy grail of boxing writing: The genuine literary book where boxing is the metaphor not the raison d'etre. Liebling did that perfectly, on a more recent level NIck Tosches, and possibly McRrae . Its when you want to read other things the writer has published, even if it doesn't mention boxing. Mailer,is for me, the perfect example of being terrible at this genre - referring to oneself as "the Writer" throughout his tortuous prose. The Unforgivable Blackness is in this category too. Of course, most Category 2 writer wishes to be a Category 3

Just my thoughts.

I second this man's sentiments, if not necessarily all of his choices.

For 'quality of prose', I suggest A.J. Liebling's "The Sweet Science". For 'using some fellas punching each other to tell you something about the world', David Remnick's "King Of The World" and Kevin Mitchell's "War Baby". For sheer entertaining loopiness, Norman Mailer's "The Fight". For 'something really good about boxing', all of the above as well as George Kimball's "Four Kings".

I liked "Unforgivable Blackness" but it really is one of those biographies where the level of detail would be most appreciated by someone already more obsessed with the man and his life than me.

I didn't like Nick Tosches "Night Train" much. It's interesting by dint of Sonny Liston's story being an interesting one, but - acclaimed though it may be - I can't see much good in it beyond that. I found the prose to be irritating (a cack-handed attempt at that sparse Hemmingway-style thing to prove you're tough as well as clever), bits of the content to be irritating (I know a lot of folks think Ali was overrated, but Tosches is reluctant to grant that he was even remotely capable), and further bits of the content to be downright revolting (he seems impressed by the fact that Liston would injure prostitutes in a certain kind of way). I'm glad I've read it, but I was more glad to have finished it.

Sonny Boy by Rob Steen is supposed to be the definitive book on Liston. I found a copy on a saturday morning market in Manchester once on the way to see Michael Brodie at his gym. Mike's trainer took an interest in the book and I ended up giving it to him, eventually though I'll get round to buying it again it though. :)

ps. another big Mcilvanney fan here. Some of his lines are pure class, like if you handed Henry Cooper a rough towel you'd need a bucket to catch the blood. I've got his book on football writing too, I believe he also has one on horse racing.

dexter wrote:

Bomber 1 wrote:Aaron Pryor 'the Hawk' nothing comes
Close

Any idea where i could get a copy?

Got it off my coach mate, sure if you google it it'll come up somewhere? Fantastic book and you won't believe what he went through, ma vida loca by johnny Tapia is also a fantastic book, there is also one about the fraud promoter but it the name fails me?? That was a great book he had the bank and everything

I did like Dominic Negus' book though.[/quote]

I read Dominic Negus's book and found it so so TBH.

For me the Herbie Hide book is a must just for the comedy value & for a £1 at Poundland it is a must buy.

I read most the books mentioned, four kings is shite, just watch the DVD fabulous four instead.
The best auto bio by a country mile is chris Eubanks
Atm I'm reading hard road to glory johnny nelson and herbie hides, both a decent read
Another good one is the history of boxing by Barry j hugman the front cover has got haggler Leonard on it, top book

Dark Trade by Donald McRae

Boxings Hall of Shame by Thomas Myler

Wrecking Machine by Alex Wade

Chaos, Corruption, Courage and Glory: A Year in the Life of Boxing by Thomas Hauser

Slightly off topic is Tarmac Warrior , The Violent World of Extreme Fighting about bare knuckle boxer Billy Cribb. Quite a shocking yet entertaining read.