BoxRec

HomicideHenry wrote:One eyed is somewhat a compliment on Smokin' Joe, considering he had 20x100 in one eye and 20x150 (i think) in the other. He was practically blind neways even before he went into Manila...and when he fought Foreman the second time, it can be argued that the only reason the second fight went 5 rounds was because Frazier had contact lenses on...but Foreman ended up knocking one out and the other behind Joe's eye.

Fact of business....Ali and Frazier was both on the downside even before Manila, and it was more a battle of wills, rather than skills from then on out for both men.

Yep, though the shaven headed Frazier somehow managed to get into the fifth, he certainly paid for it by taking a fierce beating. Not only did Big Gearge knock his contacts out, but I believe he also pummled six of Joe's teeth out as well. OUTCH!

joe kurtz wrote:Not only did Big Gearge knock his contacts out, but I believe he also pummled six of Joe's teeth out as well. OUTCH!

I had heard about the contact lenses being knocked out (didn't that happen in Manilla as well?) but never heard about Foreman knocking Fraziers teeth out.

KOJOE90 wrote:

joe kurtz wrote:Not only did Big Gearge knock his contacts out, but I believe he also pummled six of Joe's teeth out as well. OUTCH!

I had heard about the contact lenses being knocked out (didn't that happen in Manilla as well?) but never heard about Foreman knocking Fraziers teeth out.

Yep, it was in the THE RING's coverage of the fight.

In fact, I believe if you watch the fight closely you can see a spray of matter fly out of Fraziers mouth as he's whacked in the corner & goes down.

One of those "what ifs" I've always wondered about is what would have happened had Frazier not contracted hepatitis & been able to go through with his scheduled comeback bout with Gerrie Coetzee in 1978.

Frazier wasn't as stale or as old as he was three years later against Cummings & Coetzee was a bit greener than he was a year or two later when he emerged on the scene with his first round destruction of "Neon" Leon. So, what do you think?

I hate to say it, but ol' Joe probably would have been beaten. I think by that point he was too shopworn & he & his peeps were taking Coetzee lightly. Judging by his record up to that point, I don't think they knew how dangerous a puncher the South African was & they could have been in for a rude awakening just like Spinks was a while later.

God, Coetzee would have annihilated Frazier..."The Bionic Hand" was ranked easily in the top 10 in 1978 and by 1979 was the WBA #1 contender and had called out Muhammad Ali, but Ali retired thus leaving the WBA title vacant. I guess facing the likes of NFL star Lyle Alzado in an eight round exhibition was better for Ali's interest than a real contest between Coetzee.

Had Frazier faced Coetzee, I believe Frazier would have lost by a TKO inside of 8 rounds. Too old, shop worn, and all but blind; consider how most swarmers are essentially done at 32, Frazier would have been too burnt out and wouldn't have been able to make an affective attack, let alone make a decent pace against a prime Coetzee.

joe kurtz wrote:One of those "what ifs" I've always wondered about is what would have happened had Frazier not contracted hepatitis & been able to go through with his scheduled comeback bout with Gerrie Coetzee in 1978.

Frazier wasn't as stale or as old as he was three years later against Cummings & Coetzee was a bit greener than he was a year or two later when he emerged on the scene with his first round destruction of "Neon" Leon. So, what do you think?

I hate to say it, but ol' Joe probably would have been beaten. I think by that point he was too shopworn & he & his peeps were taking Coetzee lightly. Judging by his record up to that point, I don't think they knew how dangerous a puncher the South African was & they could have been in for a rude awakening just like Spinks was a while later.

He was actually scheduled to fight Kallie Knoetze, not Coetzee. I have to admit I've never seen Knoetze fight, any opinions on that match guys?

Flump wrote:

joe kurtz wrote:One of those "what ifs" I've always wondered about is what would have happened had Frazier not contracted hepatitis & been able to go through with his scheduled comeback bout with Gerrie Coetzee in 1978.

Frazier wasn't as stale or as old as he was three years later against Cummings & Coetzee was a bit greener than he was a year or two later when he emerged on the scene with his first round destruction of "Neon" Leon. So, what do you think?

I hate to say it, but ol' Joe probably would have been beaten. I think by that point he was too shopworn & he & his peeps were taking Coetzee lightly. Judging by his record up to that point, I don't think they knew how dangerous a puncher the South African was & they could have been in for a rude awakening just like Spinks was a while later.

He was actually scheduled to fight Kallie Knoetze, not Coetzee. I have to admit I've never seen Knoetze fight, any opinions on that match guys?

Hmmm ...

Nope, I beg to differ with you on this one my friend. I still have the newspaper clippings & the TV Guide listing about the fight & it was definitely scheduled to be Gerrie Coetzee not his countryman Knoetze.

As for a Knoetze match with Frazier, I think ol' Joe would've stood a better chance with him than Coetzee. Knoetze wasn't nearly as talented & his whole arsenal was a big clubbing right hand. Which was good enough to net him a pretty big upset KO 3 over the ,then, once beaten Duane Bobick.

Knoetze still might have had too much youth & power on his side for Joe at that point, but if Joe had anything more left in his tank at that point than he did two - three later against Jumbo Cummings he might have made a good fight of it. Knoetze didn't have the world's best punch resistance himself.

joe kurtz wrote:

Flump wrote:

joe kurtz wrote:One of those "what ifs" I've always wondered about is what would have happened had Frazier not contracted hepatitis & been able to go through with his scheduled comeback bout with Gerrie Coetzee in 1978.

Frazier wasn't as stale or as old as he was three years later against Cummings & Coetzee was a bit greener than he was a year or two later when he emerged on the scene with his first round destruction of "Neon" Leon. So, what do you think?

I hate to say it, but ol' Joe probably would have been beaten. I think by that point he was too shopworn & he & his peeps were taking Coetzee lightly. Judging by his record up to that point, I don't think they knew how dangerous a puncher the South African was & they could have been in for a rude awakening just like Spinks was a while later.

He was actually scheduled to fight Kallie Knoetze, not Coetzee. I have to admit I've never seen Knoetze fight, any opinions on that match guys?

Hmmm ...

Nope, I beg to differ with you on this one my friend. I still have the newspaper clippings & the TV Guide listing about the fight & it was definitely scheduled to be Gerrie Coetzee not his countryman Knoetze.

I'm only going by Frazier's autobiography and also the commentary on the Frazier-Cummings bout referred to Knoetze and not Coetzee. Still Joe, i'm not going to fall out with you on this one! I was only 4 in 1978 and still 4 years away from following the sport properly, you could well be right.

Flump wrote:

joe kurtz wrote:

Flump wrote: He was actually scheduled to fight Kallie Knoetze, not Coetzee. I have to admit I've never seen Knoetze fight, any opinions on that match guys?

Hmmm ...

Nope, I beg to differ with you on this one my friend. I still have the newspaper clippings & the TV Guide listing about the fight & it was definitely scheduled to be Gerrie Coetzee not his countryman Knoetze.

I'm only going by Frazier's autobiography and also the commentary on the Frazier-Cummings bout referred to Knoetze and not Coetzee. Still Joe, i'm not going to fall out with you on this one! I was only 4 in 1978 and still 4 years away from following the sport properly, you could well be right.

What do you mean you're "not going to fall out" with me on this?!!

How dare you to rob me of the beginings of a good, intense, heated internet rivalvy you bastard!

Just kidding.

I too noticed that they mentioned Knoetze in Joe's book. Strange that the fact checkers weren't on the ball more. But, I doublechecked my scrapbook & the clippings definitely list Coetzee as the opponent.

Interesting ...

Actually, if you think about it, a match with Knoetze may have had a better "angle" at the time considering that at that point I think Bobick was still being managed by Frazier's people, which would've set up a "revenge" fight of sorts.

But, following his KO over Bobick, Knoetze stayed a bit busy with wins over the UK's Denton Ruddock & Bill Sharkey in Miami before meeting John Tate in early '79 in a WBA eliminator. While, if memory serves me, Coetzee just had a decision win Randy Stephens after the Frazier fight fell through.

joe kurtz wrote:

Flump wrote:

joe kurtz wrote: Hmmm ...

Nope, I beg to differ with you on this one my friend. I still have the newspaper clippings & the TV Guide listing about the fight & it was definitely scheduled to be Gerrie Coetzee not his countryman Knoetze.

I'm only going by Frazier's autobiography and also the commentary on the Frazier-Cummings bout referred to Knoetze and not Coetzee. Still Joe, i'm not going to fall out with you on this one! I was only 4 in 1978 and still 4 years away from following the sport properly, you could well be right.

What do you mean you're "not going to fall out" with me on this?!!

How dare you to rob me of the beginings of a good, intense, heated internet rivalvy you bastard!

Just kidding.

I too noticed that they mentioned Knoetze in Joe's book. Strange that the fact checkers weren't on the ball more. But, I doublechecked my scrapbook & the clippings definitely list Coetzee as the opponent.

Interesting ...

Actually, if you think about it, a match with Knoetze may have had a better "angle" at the time considering that at that point I think Bobick was still being managed by Frazier's people, which would've set up a "revenge" fight of sorts.

But, following his KO over Bobick, Knoetze stayed a bit busy with wins over the UK's Denton Ruddock & Bill Sharkey in Miami before meeting John Tate in early '79 in a WBA eliminator. While, if memory serves me, Coetzee just had a decision win Randy Stephens after the Frazier fight fell through.

Sorry mate, I only fall out with arseholes, you don't qualify!

Another angle with Knoetze I gather was that he was a policeman and allegedly not noted for his racial tolerance. Joe being from the South would have made it even more interesting I'm sure.

revporl wrote:Hiya,
Has anyone seen the frazier cummings fight. Was it close, how did frazier look? Was it any less pathetic than the Ali fights of the same time?

i have a wicked copy from a guy in chicago if interested pm me