BoxRec

MachoMan09 wrote:

Gray-Fox wrote:I believe "talent" is a fallacy anyway. Don't want to get too much into it on here because I cba to write long posts and go back and forth.

I disagree and believe that some people have talent - or aptitude, if you prefer - that gives them an innate competitive advantage over others with less talent for performing a particular kind of activity at a certain level. I agree, though, that it is not worth us going back and forth on the issue. I'm right, you're wrong. We'll leave it at that. D

princess wrote:

Gary L wrote:Hiya guys, I normally just read the forums but after reading this post decided to get let you know the real story.

Tony Doherty is one of the most talented kids I've worked with. Back at the start of 2010, Gavin Rees, Bradley Pryce and Tony Doherty decided it was time for a change and left Enzo to start afresh under me at Fight Academy Wales (Darren Wilson's gym). Tony and I were at the same amateur club under Tony Williams and then both under Brian Hughes in Manchester so we go back years, he is my friend and I'd never run him down but what a massive waste of talent!! I never talk about sparring outside of the gym but I've seen Tony make world champions look completely clueless in sparring. His problem is that I just don't think he wants to fight, I think his Dad Simon wants him to fight more than he does. I pulled him off a bill 10 days before he was due to fight back in December because he was 12 lbs overweight - he could have lost the weight but thats not the way I work. Unfortunately he has never been back to the gym since then. He is under a management contract with me and my door is always open if he can dedicate himself to the gym and his diet which he's never been able to do!

Tony is a very respectful lad and a brilliant fighter and there isn't a day that goes past when I don't wonder what he could have done with his God-given talent. He raced to 20-0 without ever training hard and never ever running! Breaks my heart :(

great lad he came to our gym and sparred with Danny Butler and is a real talent and one of the niceset boxers i have met.Gary if u see him tell him to come here Danny got a fight coming up and Tony could reallt help him such a talent and, Gary theres a lot of top boxers that dont run You dont run round a boxing ring Thank god for younger trainers that dont believe you have to run to get fit theres plenty of other ways to get fit and not put to much stress on the body Its suits some boxers but not all of them x

princess wrote:theres a lot of top boxers that dont run You dont run round a boxing ring Thank god for younger trainers that dont believe you have to run to get fit theres plenty of other ways to get fit and not put to much stress on the body Its suits some boxers but not all of them x

francisscott wrote:I read interviews with jim mcdonell, brian hughes and james cook all mentioning tony doherty as the gifted one. I believe one of them was referring to a drill about when your meant to stand with your back foot on a piece of toilet paper, here you avoid punches and throw some back without moving back foot. if the paper is ripped then you fail. Believe they said no one could do it perfect with the exception of doc. He is also phenomenol on the floor to ceiling ball. He made Barrie Jones look like a journeyman, which not even brook or m'baye could do.

cutthecacklebullyup wrote:

francisscott wrote:I read interviews with jim mcdonell, brian hughes and james cook all mentioning tony doherty as the gifted one. I believe one of them was referring to a drill about when your meant to stand with your back foot on a piece of toilet paper, here you avoid punches and throw some back without moving back foot. if the paper is ripped then you fail. Believe they said no one could do it perfect with the exception of doc. He is also phenomenol on the floor to ceiling ball. He made Barrie Jones look like a journeyman, which not even brook or m'baye could do.

frankie gavin did!

stujones wrote:

Gary L wrote:Hiya guys, I normally just read the forums but after reading this post decided to get let you know the real story.

Tony Doherty is one of the most talented kids I've worked with. Back at the start of 2010, Gavin Rees, Bradley Pryce and Tony Doherty decided it was time for a change and left Enzo to start afresh under me at Fight Academy Wales (Darren Wilson's gym). Tony and I were at the same amateur club under Tony Williams and then both under Brian Hughes in Manchester so we go back years, he is my friend and I'd never run him down but what a massive waste of talent!! I never talk about sparring outside of the gym but I've seen Tony make world champions look completely clueless in sparring. His problem is that I just don't think he wants to fight, I think his Dad Simon wants him to fight more than he does. I pulled him off a bill 10 days before he was due to fight back in December because he was 12 lbs overweight - he could have lost the weight but thats not the way I work. Unfortunately he has never been back to the gym since then. He is under a management contract with me and my door is always open if he can dedicate himself to the gym and his diet which he's never been able to do!

Tony is a very respectful lad and a brilliant fighter and there isn't a day that goes past when I don't wonder what he could have done with his God-given talent. He raced to 20-0 without ever training hard and never ever running! Breaks my heart :(

Welcome Gary, nice to hear the door is open for Tony.... lets just hope one day he realises that he's just got one shot at life and we comes back.

MachoMan09 wrote:

Deserter wrote:

MachoMan09 wrote: I disagree and believe that some people have talent - or aptitude, if you prefer - that gives them an innate competitive advantage over others with less talent for performing a particular kind of activity at a certain level. I agree, though, that it is not worth us going back and forth on the issue. I'm right, you're wrong. We'll leave it at that. D

Macho, have you read 'Bounce' by Matthew Syed. Great read and challenged a number of my assumptions regarding 'natural talent'. Some great other points made by you and Gray-Fox re. mental strength and the importance of what Syed terms 'purposeful practice' in his book.

I have and it is thought provoking but I disagree with his myth of talent notion. Purposeful practice is Matthew's way of rehashing the age old principle of specificity, something that I have always been a huge advocate of in my sporting and professional life. Drilling a technique into somebody by practicing over and over again is critical to success. Your body adapts, your mind adapts and you improve. I'm 100% with him there. In my view, though, innate aptitude cannot be overlooked and certainly should not be dismissed as a myth. When we appear from the womb we are 50% mum and 50% dad, as they were ad infinitum, and that genetic makeup is, to me at least, the single most important determinent of what we have the potential to become. A whole host of things will either cause us to limit or come close to reaching that potential.

Of course in sports like cycling, running, weightlifting, swimming, rowing and other sports that are fairly closed skill it is easy to see how genetic potential is a limiting factor. So too in a sport like bodybuilding where genetics are critical.

In more highly skilled sports, golf, football, etc the raw material that I believe constitute the necessary talent for those sports are a blend of qualities that include but are no way limited to hand eye coordination, muscle fibre ratios, spacial awareness etc that are beneficial to the particular activity. These are things that you are born with to a greater and lesser degree than others.

Even elements required to conduct the purposeful practice/SAID principle are, in many ways, another form of innate aptitude. Determination, drive, aggression, single-mindedness etc are largely inherited; yes they can be developed but only as much as your genetic potential allows.

Des1 wrote: Sure there are ways of getting fit without running but you would never be as fit as you can without including running, thats a fact.

Jeff Thomas wrote:

Des1 wrote: Sure there are ways of getting fit without running but you would never be as fit as you can without including running, thats a fact.

Sorry to be pedantic but it is not a fact, it's an opinion.

An opinion that I don't agree with at all. I run often but a good circuit can be far more beneficial then a run.

I know plenty of super fit people who NEVER run. Why would it be any different for a boxer? I can give you plenty of reasons why running can actually have a negative effect on training.

Coco wrote:Fighters fight, runners run

Deserter wrote:

Coco wrote:Fighters fight, runners run

Tell Calzaghe that Marc, those hill-runs didn't seem to do his stamina any harm

Coco wrote:

Deserter wrote:

Coco wrote:Fighters fight, runners run

Tell Calzaghe that Marc, those hill-runs didn't seem to do his stamina any harm

Prob about right! Tbh I have always run and felt I needed too, there are plenty that don't though, apparently Eubank didn't, my mate Miguel Matthews rarely run and he was one of the fittest I have known, he would just spar constantly, maybe if I run less.........!lol

Des1 wrote:

Jeff Thomas wrote:

Des1 wrote: Sure there are ways of getting fit without running but you would never be as fit as you can without including running, thats a fact.

Sorry to be pedantic but it is not a fact, it's an opinion.

An opinion that I don't agree with at all. I run often but a good circuit can be far more beneficial then a run.

I know plenty of super fit people who NEVER run. Why would it be any different for a boxer? I can give you plenty of reasons why running can actually have a negative effect on training.

Thats probably why you tell yourself its an opinion and not a fact because you dont agree with it. I'm not doubting that there are super fit people who dont run but they would be fitter if they did run and that is a fact. Running is the best exercise for lung capacity and its not just about losing weight which someone has said on here. Running can be done at different tempos, speeds and level surfaces and is a very important part of a boxers training schedule. So if your run is just a 'plod' thats most probably why you have that opinion. Of course if your going to run it should be done properly like all parts of training. Anyway, just off for a power run...to build my fitness up

MachoMan09 wrote:I've been running with boxers who don't know what they are running for and that's the problem.

Are you running to burn extra calories?

Are you running to develop economy and efficiency?

Are you running to develop aerobic capacity and endurance?

Are you running to raise your anaerobic threshold and improve lactate clearance?

Are you running to increase maximum power?

etc....

or

Are you running just because?

There's more than one way to skin a cat; some better than others. Providing you (or the person directing you) know why you're training and you are continuing to improve in all departments of fitness, happy days.

Gary L wrote:The lack of pop in his punches you talk about is because he was fighting at a weight that was way above what he should have been. In the amateurs he had around 30 ko's where he was either stopping guys with body shots or knocking them flat out. I know that Jimmy McDonnell rated him very highly when he trained him, the reality was that for his fight with McIntyre he lost something like 50lbs in four weeks to make weight. I believe if he had really applied himself then he could have been a real world champion, not just a paper champion.

Jeff Thomas wrote:

Des1 wrote:

Jeff Thomas wrote: Sorry to be pedantic but it is not a fact, it's an opinion.

An opinion that I don't agree with at all. I run often but a good circuit can be far more beneficial then a run.

I know plenty of super fit people who NEVER run. Why would it be any different for a boxer? I can give you plenty of reasons why running can actually have a negative effect on training.

Thats probably why you tell yourself its an opinion and not a fact because you dont agree with it. I'm not doubting that there are super fit people who dont run but they would be fitter if they did run and that is a fact. Running is the best exercise for lung capacity and its not just about losing weight which someone has said on here. Running can be done at different tempos, speeds and level surfaces and is a very important part of a boxers training schedule. So if your run is just a 'plod' thats most probably why you have that opinion. Of course if your going to run it should be done properly like all parts of training. Anyway, just off for a power run...to build my fitness up

Define fitness-

And it's not a fact. Fact.

Des1 wrote:

Jeff Thomas wrote:

Des1 wrote:Thats probably why you tell yourself its an opinion and not a fact because you dont agree with it. I'm not doubting that there are super fit people who dont run but they would be fitter if they did run and that is a fact. Running is the best exercise for lung capacity and its not just about losing weight which someone has said on here. Running can be done at different tempos, speeds and level surfaces and is a very important part of a boxers training schedule. So if your run is just a 'plod' thats most probably why you have that opinion. Of course if your going to run it should be done properly like all parts of training. Anyway, just off for a power run...to build my fitness up

Define fitness-

And it's not a fact. Fact.

Jeff, it is a fact. I'm not saying that you cant get fit without running because you can but by adding running (not plodding) to your training routine will make you considerably fitter especially by doing hill and interval runs. As I've said and is a proven fact, running increases your lung capacity as well being the most efficient way of building fitness.

Jeff Thomas wrote:

Des1 wrote:

Jeff Thomas wrote: Define fitness-

And it's not a fact. Fact.

Jeff, it is a fact. I'm not saying that you cant get fit without running because you can but by adding running (not plodding) to your training routine will make you considerably fitter especially by doing hill and interval runs. As I've said and is a proven fact, running increases your lung capacity as well being the most efficient way of building fitness.

Wanking can also build your lung capacity. Fact.

Who says running is the most efficient way to build fitness. Cite me an expert who says that Des.

Also what adaption specific to running makes it more effective a training method then any other exercise?