BoxRec

Scottrf wrote:Can't look past the fact that he hasn't proved himself without doubt to be the best in his division yet. Many think Ward is, some Bute. As impressive as his run is (and it really is) I can't help thinking that in time of 17 rather than 8 divisions, the Ward fight will be his defining one either way in all time terms.

Good post, although I personally would rather see runs incorporating wins. Froch is 1-1 in his last 2 fights and his victory was against a fighter who has probably won a maximum of 5 rounds in his last three fights. Fantastic run of fighters and some very very good wins among those, but Kessler is hurting him big style (I mean in terms of standing) and for my money Dirrell should have got the decision clearly also (but thats history). I don't think Hatton's reputation was enhanced, other than saying "oh he has got balls", for fighting and losing too Mayweather and Pacquiao. What gives Hatton his reputation is the fact that he beat a very good list of names in his own right. Yes Froch has also, but he has lost very recently to a faded fighter for my money. If we are justing going on who they have fought, then Peter Buckley is up with any British fighter.

Froch will be be up there for sure but he's probably the best fighter in Eddie Hearns time in boxing...five minutes!

stujones wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Can't look past the fact that he hasn't proved himself without doubt to be the best in his division yet. Many think Ward is, some Bute. As impressive as his run is (and it really is) I can't help thinking that in time of 17 rather than 8 divisions, the Ward fight will be his defining one either way in all time terms.

Good post, although I personally would rather see runs incorporating wins. Froch is 1-1 in his last 2 fights and his victory was against a fighter who has probably won a maximum of 5 rounds in his last three fights. Fantastic run of fighters and some very very good wins among those, but Kessler is hurting him big style (I mean in terms of standing) and for my money Dirrell should have got the decision clearly also (but thats history). I don't think Hatton's reputation was enhanced, other than saying "oh he has got balls", for fighting and losing too Mayweather and Pacquiao. What gives Hatton his reputation is the fact that he beat a very good list of names in his own right. Yes Froch has also, but he has lost very recently to a faded fighter for my money. If we are justing going on who they have fought, then Peter Buckley is up with any British fighter.

Well, the Kessler/Dirrell fights were close, so I wouldn't hold a loss against him as much (forgetting Hatton's victors were much higher quality for now). Froch showed he could live with them at least, you wont dominate every opponent. Even Calzaghe struggled against Reid for example.

I think that as well as Hatton's opponents, it helps him that he was seen as the man at LWW (with the possible exception of Witter). Give him the same wins but have him overshadowed by another dominant LWW and I don't think he's held in the same esteem. The Tszyu fight established Hatton as the man, something Froch hasn't done yet. Beat Ward and IMO he doesn't need Bute, it just helps.

It's important to consider when you rank him against all time, whether you are comparing him with someone making X defenses of the title, or a belt (i.e. 1/4). He's faced a number of ex-'World Champions' but only because there are too many. In reality most are just high quality contenders.

Scottrf wrote:

stujones wrote:

Scottrf wrote:Can't look past the fact that he hasn't proved himself without doubt to be the best in his division yet. Many think Ward is, some Bute. As impressive as his run is (and it really is) I can't help thinking that in time of 17 rather than 8 divisions, the Ward fight will be his defining one either way in all time terms.

Good post, although I personally would rather see runs incorporating wins. Froch is 1-1 in his last 2 fights and his victory was against a fighter who has probably won a maximum of 5 rounds in his last three fights. Fantastic run of fighters and some very very good wins among those, but Kessler is hurting him big style (I mean in terms of standing) and for my money Dirrell should have got the decision clearly also (but thats history). I don't think Hatton's reputation was enhanced, other than saying "oh he has got balls", for fighting and losing too Mayweather and Pacquiao. What gives Hatton his reputation is the fact that he beat a very good list of names in his own right. Yes Froch has also, but he has lost very recently to a faded fighter for my money. If we are justing going on who they have fought, then Peter Buckley is up with any British fighter.

Well, the Kessler/Dirrell fights were close, so I wouldn't hold a loss against him as much (forgetting Hatton's victors were much higher quality for now). Froch showed he could live with them at least, you wont dominate every opponent. Even Calzaghe struggled against Reid for example.

I think that as well as Hatton's opponents, it helps him that he was seen as the man at LWW (with the possible exception of Witter). Give him the same wins but have him overshadowed by another dominant LWW and I don't think he's held in the same esteem. The Tszyu fight established Hatton as the man, something Froch hasn't done yet. Beat Ward and IMO he doesn't need Bute, it just helps.

It's important to consider when you rank him against all time, whether you are comparing him with someone making X defenses of the title, or a belt (i.e. 1/4). He's faced a number of ex-'World Champions' but only because there are too many. In reality most are just high quality contenders.

Good post, agree on Hatton being considered the man. It does help having an all time great in the opposite end of the corner, even if considered past his best - he was undisputededly the man. Similar thing might happen if Froch fights Hopkins.

Only thing I do disagree on, and its just my personal take, is Kessler and Dirrell fights. I didn't see the Kessler fight as particularly close (I had it Kessler by 3), I actually didn't see the Dirrell fight as close either (Dirrell was a clear winner for me). Looks like he might have learned from these fights and I liked what I saw against Abraham. Froch does face a dilemna against Johnson though - this fight is getting the hype it deserves by Sky... it could be his biggest audience in a while... does he fight as he did vs Abraham and turn off the new audience, or does he fight "Carl Froch" style and play into the slower, older, Johnson's hands. The 2011 version of Johnson can be outboxed, but is still dangerous if you chose to duke it out with him.

apophenic wrote:

Darcy Delaney wrote:

Camcas wrote: Calzaghe
Lewis
Honeyghan
Hatton
Eubank
Cooper(becuase he was an icon)
Benn(maybe)

a prime benn beats a prime calzaghe imo

no chance. benn's one of my favorite all time but i don't see him as having the technical nouse to break calzaghe down...

x2

boxingchat wrote:Froch will be be up there for sure but he's probably the best fighter in Eddie Hearns time in boxing...five minutes!

True!

MachoMan09 wrote:If Eddie had come out and said: "Carl Froch is a lad from Nottingham with zero charisma; he has an annoying, loudmouth, camera hungry girlfriend; he was outworked and out hussled by the capable Dane, Mikkel Kessler, who, incidentally, was beaten convincingly by an aged Joe Calzaghe." we'd all be saying he wasn't doing his job properly.

Macho talking sense as usual.


Since we're talking about all time British greats gotta give a mention to "The Ghost with a Hammer in his Hand" Jimmy Wilde.

Calzaghe doesn't make the boxrec top ten:

http://boxrec.com/ratings.php?country=U ... o&pageID=1

8)

Deserter wrote:

apophenic wrote:

Darcy Delaney wrote: a prime benn beats a prime calzaghe imo

no chance. benn's one of my favorite all time but i don't see him as having the technical nouse to break calzaghe down...

x2

Calzaghe was tough enough to outlast Benn, and would have stopped him.

Glyn Leach wrote:I think the key word is could. Hearn isn't saying Froch is, or will become, he's saying could become. And maybe he can, but he'd have to go some to beat Lewis, simply because the opposition doesn't currently appear to be out there for him to earn such an accolade against — that's why I'd rank Lewis ahead of Calzaghe, strength of opposition. But like Lewis, and unlike Calzaghe, Froch has achieved an awful lot fighting away from home and that puts him in good stead by my personal criteria.

I disagree with the part of the opposition not being available. His potential matches list as Johnson, Ward, Pavlik, Sergio Martinez, Kessler, Bute, Pascal, Degale/Groves, Paul Williams, Chad Dawson, Tavoris Cloud, Zsolt Erdei, nathan Cleverley, Bernard Hopkins, and he could possibly go to cruiseweight and fight Antonio tarver, Roy Jones Jr, and Danny Green. The opposition is definately out there for him.

well the promoter would say that.

if froch can win the super 6, then you'd have to say he's had the best sustained run, putting himself truly on the line - in back to back to back to back... fights - of any british fighter (minus lennox lewis).

honeyghan, hodkinson, mcguigan all did some great work, but it all went wrong for each.

calzaghe had 20 successive defenses but it was a run diluted by some terrible mismatches and ended anti-climatically with two poor fights with hopkins and jones jr.

froch is two wins away from making a massive case for himself. the the optimistic side, he seems to have improved with the tough matchups, at least going by the last fight. obviously froch HAS TO WIN the next two fights, and it won't be easy.

If Froch had been on TV he wouldn't be far off, under exposure has hurt him.
Saying that JC beat Kessler and Froch didn't, that counts

Coco wrote:If Froch had been on TV he wouldn't be far off, under exposure has hurt him.
Saying that JC beat Kessler and Froch didn't, that counts

it counts but it doesn't have to mean everything.

if froch beats ward (who handled kessler), for instance, the defeat wouldn't mean that much.

if froch beats glen johnson, whom joe pulled out of a fight twice with, and went on to dismiss as a journeyman, just before glen won 2004's fighter of the year (a horribly misguided, ignorant and mistimed comment)...

kamicazze wrote:

Glyn Leach wrote:I think the key word is could. Hearn isn't saying Froch is, or will become, he's saying could become. And maybe he can, but he'd have to go some to beat Lewis, simply because the opposition doesn't currently appear to be out there for him to earn such an accolade against — that's why I'd rank Lewis ahead of Calzaghe, strength of opposition. But like Lewis, and unlike Calzaghe, Froch has achieved an awful lot fighting away from home and that puts him in good stead by my personal criteria.

I disagree with the part of the opposition not being available. His potential matches list as Johnson, Ward, Pavlik, Sergio Martinez, Kessler, Bute, Pascal, Degale/Groves, Paul Williams, Chad Dawson, Tavoris Cloud, Zsolt Erdei, nathan Cleverley, Bernard Hopkins, and he could possibly go to cruiseweight and fight Antonio tarver, Roy Jones Jr, and Danny Green. The opposition is definately out there for him.

Roy Jones Jr? Danny Green? What they are supposed to be legacy enhancing fights.

Who says he could fight at cruiserweight anyway?

Cleverly hasn't done anything yet to prove if he is on Froch's level yet.

Martinez hasn't fought above 160 yet.....Pavlik....he's a recovering alcoholic, and may not even return.

Don't just throw any old name in the hat!

Reading this has hurt my brain!

Autobarn wrote:well the promoter would say that.

if froch can win the super 6, then you'd have to say he's had the best sustained run, putting himself truly on the line - in back to back to back to back... fights - of any british fighter (minus lennox lewis).

honeyghan, hodkinson, mcguigan all did some great work, but it all went wrong for each.

calzaghe had 20 successive defenses but it was a run diluted by some terrible mismatches and ended anti-climatically with two poor fights with hopkins and jones jr.

froch is two wins away from making a massive case for himself. the the optimistic side, he seems to have improved with the tough matchups, at least going by the last fight. obviously froch HAS TO WIN the next two fights, and it won't be easy.

If he beats Johnson, Ward, (maybe Kessler if he's coming back) and Hopkins, he's on a par with Calzaghe, who had Reid, Lacy, Kessler, Hopkins as his best wins arguably, maybe Eubank, but he was pretty late coming in.

There are a lot of if's there!

I don't think anyone can seriously say JC ducked Johnson and if Froch does a good number on him the Road Warriors age will be highlighted

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

kamicazze wrote:

Glyn Leach wrote:I think the key word is could. Hearn isn't saying Froch is, or will become, he's saying could become. And maybe he can, but he'd have to go some to beat Lewis, simply because the opposition doesn't currently appear to be out there for him to earn such an accolade against — that's why I'd rank Lewis ahead of Calzaghe, strength of opposition. But like Lewis, and unlike Calzaghe, Froch has achieved an awful lot fighting away from home and that puts him in good stead by my personal criteria.

I disagree with the part of the opposition not being available. His potential matches list as Johnson, Ward, Pavlik, Sergio Martinez, Kessler, Bute, Pascal, Degale/Groves, Paul Williams, Chad Dawson, Tavoris Cloud, Zsolt Erdei, nathan Cleverley, Bernard Hopkins, and he could possibly go to cruiseweight and fight Antonio tarver, Roy Jones Jr, and Danny Green. The opposition is definately out there for him.

Roy Jones Jr? Danny Green? What they are supposed to be legacy enhancing fights.

Who says he could fight at cruiserweight anyway?

Cleverly hasn't done anything yet to prove if he is on Froch's level yet.

Martinez hasn't fought above 160 yet.....Pavlik....he's a recovering alcoholic, and may not even return.

Don't just throw any old name in the hat!

Pavlik fought the other week.

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Autobarn wrote:well the promoter would say that.

if froch can win the super 6, then you'd have to say he's had the best sustained run, putting himself truly on the line - in back to back to back to back... fights - of any british fighter (minus lennox lewis).

honeyghan, hodkinson, mcguigan all did some great work, but it all went wrong for each.

calzaghe had 20 successive defenses but it was a run diluted by some terrible mismatches and ended anti-climatically with two poor fights with hopkins and jones jr.

froch is two wins away from making a massive case for himself. the the optimistic side, he seems to have improved with the tough matchups, at least going by the last fight. obviously froch HAS TO WIN the next two fights, and it won't be easy.

If he beats Johnson, Ward, (maybe Kessler if he's coming back) and Hopkins, he's on a par with Calzaghe, who had Reid, Lacy, Kessler, Hopkins as his best wins arguably, maybe Eubank, but he was pretty late coming in.

but joe fought these names only when he was ready, and when it suited him. right time, right place (notably the 2 unification fights). he didn't put himself on the line over a sustained period. froch is under a huge amount more pressure to deliver. taking a far greater risk. froch is not able to choose when he picks on these names.

while a kessler rematch is a big fight, it wouldn't matter so much if froch has a win over ward. the blemish vs kessler is not an issue if froch can recover and move on to bigger things, following it.

Coco wrote:There are a lot of if's there!

I don't think anyone can seriously say JC ducked Johnson and if Froch does a good number on him the Road Warriors age will be highlighted

With good reason.... Johnson is not on an amazing run if you look at his 7 fights he is 4-3 is 2-2 in his last 4 (and the two defeats were quite clear cut). He was also losing on points to Green at the time of the stoppage. Allan Green hasn't proved himself world class at all.

Johnson is an aging fighter, I feel its a lose-lose situation for Froch... well maybe not exactly lose-lose cause at least he is guarenteed a shot at Ward.

Remember the opinion of Johnson vs Calzaghe when it was scheduled. It was classed as a solid fight, but not a "wow" defining acid test fight in which people really gave Johnson as serious chance in winning. Now 4-5 years down the line, it should be the same for Froch.

Coco wrote:There are a lot of if's there!

I don't think anyone can seriously say JC ducked Johnson and if Froch does a good number on him the Road Warriors age will be highlighted

yeah, 2 of 'em, johnson and ward!

Scottrf wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

kamicazze wrote: I disagree with the part of the opposition not being available. His potential matches list as Johnson, Ward, Pavlik, Sergio Martinez, Kessler, Bute, Pascal, Degale/Groves, Paul Williams, Chad Dawson, Tavoris Cloud, Zsolt Erdei, nathan Cleverley, Bernard Hopkins, and he could possibly go to cruiseweight and fight Antonio tarver, Roy Jones Jr, and Danny Green. The opposition is definately out there for him.

Roy Jones Jr? Danny Green? What they are supposed to be legacy enhancing fights.

Who says he could fight at cruiserweight anyway?

Cleverly hasn't done anything yet to prove if he is on Froch's level yet.

Martinez hasn't fought above 160 yet.....Pavlik....he's a recovering alcoholic, and may not even return.

Don't just throw any old name in the hat!

Pavlik fought the other week.

Ah ok, didn't know he'd had his comeback yet. Still, he's hardly proven world class any more.

Autobarn wrote:

jamesmcdonnell wrote:

Autobarn wrote:well the promoter would say that.

if froch can win the super 6, then you'd have to say he's had the best sustained run, putting himself truly on the line - in back to back to back to back... fights - of any british fighter (minus lennox lewis).

honeyghan, hodkinson, mcguigan all did some great work, but it all went wrong for each.

calzaghe had 20 successive defenses but it was a run diluted by some terrible mismatches and ended anti-climatically with two poor fights with hopkins and jones jr.

froch is two wins away from making a massive case for himself. the the optimistic side, he seems to have improved with the tough matchups, at least going by the last fight. obviously froch HAS TO WIN the next two fights, and it won't be easy.

If he beats Johnson, Ward, (maybe Kessler if he's coming back) and Hopkins, he's on a par with Calzaghe, who had Reid, Lacy, Kessler, Hopkins as his best wins arguably, maybe Eubank, but he was pretty late coming in.

but joe fought these names only when he was ready, and when it suited him. right time, right place (notably the 2 unification fights). he didn't put himself on the line over a sustained period. froch is under a huge amount more pressure to deliver. taking a far greater risk. froch is not able to choose when he picks on these names.

while a kessler rematch is a big fight, it wouldn't matter so much if froch has a win over ward. the blemish vs kessler is not an issue if froch can recover and move on to bigger things, following it.

Oh I totally agree. I hated Calzaghe's career - it was incredibly frustrating, and his unwillingness to take risks made me sick and tired of him.

Just being devils advocate really and pointing out that Calzaghe did have some big wins.

kamicazze wrote:

Glyn Leach wrote:I think the key word is could. Hearn isn't saying Froch is, or will become, he's saying could become. And maybe he can, but he'd have to go some to beat Lewis, simply because the opposition doesn't currently appear to be out there for him to earn such an accolade against — that's why I'd rank Lewis ahead of Calzaghe, strength of opposition. But like Lewis, and unlike Calzaghe, Froch has achieved an awful lot fighting away from home and that puts him in good stead by my personal criteria.

I disagree with the part of the opposition not being available. His potential matches list as Johnson, Ward, Pavlik, Sergio Martinez, Kessler, Bute, Pascal, Degale/Groves, Paul Williams, Chad Dawson, Tavoris Cloud, Zsolt Erdei, nathan Cleverley, Bernard Hopkins, and he could possibly go to cruiseweight and fight Antonio tarver, Roy Jones Jr, and Danny Green. The opposition is definately out there for him.

Pavlik is shot and discredited. Kessler has beat Froch and been beaten by Calzaghe and Ward. He has already beaten Pascal, who has lost twice to Hopkins (in most people's eyes). Martinez is excellent, but he's come up from light-middle, that's the knock against him. Ward and Bute are on his level, fighters wanting to become bigger, move onto the next level. Williams is too small and hardly invincible. Clev, DeGale, Groves are all below his level, he has done far more than any of them so what would fighting them achieve? The light-heavyweight selection is interesting, but there's hardly a Holyfield, Ruddock, even a faded Tyson level name in that bunch — which is not to say beating Hopkins wouldn't be an achievement, even though he'd be close to 50 by the time he fought Froch. I won't even go into your cruiserweight corpse selection, a fight against any of them would be a discredit to the sport with the possible exception of Green, who means nothing outside Australia. Frochy needs big names at their best. Genuine world stars. That's what would take him to the best-ever level. Sadly for him, none of those you mention qualify.

Yeah but with lennox many of his fights were name fighters not in their prime when he fought them. However for us looking back we see the names and think wow he fought that guy. So if we were to look back on Froch's record in say 20 years time and he had these names on his record then i think he would be on par if not better than lennox. Of course Lennox did have a massive name in Tyson which Cobra cannot match.

kamicazze wrote:Yeah but with lennox many of his fights were name fighters not in their prime when he fought them. However for us looking back we see the names and think wow he fought that guy. So if we were to look back on Froch's record in say 20 years time and he had these names on his record then i think he would be on par if not better than lennox. Of course Lennox did have a massive name in Tyson which Cobra cannot match.

Errr. No. Lennox cleaned out the heavyweight division, with the exception of Bowe and perhaps Byrd, Ruiz, the two latter of which had zero chance of winning, who else could he have fought. Tyson showed little desire to fight Lennox until he was near the tail end of his career and wanted the money.

Froch would have to go on a pretty amazing run to overtake Lewis.